So I am trying to visualize this, are you describing a Titan Gun?
I dig it.
I love weapons and I would very quickly snap this up for 800pts regardless of how good or bad the set was, as long as it looked good and had different cannon models.
I don't presume to know what all you're willing to do thematically with 'Double Shot' but it sounds like a good candidate for a sniper. Instead of the usual slow aim type animation, you would have a panniced manual reloading, or assembly, or calibration animation of some kind, followed by a hasty shot at the end of the animation.
Only if this is what you get to carry around:
Or I guess roll...
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I was thinking more of the cannon weapon in the Serious Sam games. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Only if this is what you get to carry around:
Or I guess roll... |
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: STOP!
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: WAIT ONE SECOND!
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: WHAT IS A SEAGULL DOING ON MY THRONE!?!?
/signed
I love weapon sets and this could really fit a "artillery" themed blast set. And as mentioned above, I could see this as the Titan set for Blasting.
As for secondary effects, maybe knockdown since Energy has Knockback covered?
Weapon models:
Colonial Cannon without the wheels.
Tech Cannon.
Perhaps a cannon off a battleship
Circus Cannon with crazy patterns
Cannons you see on Robot enemies in Council and IDF
IMO, it should be an over-the-shoulder weapon.
If your arm wraps around it or it's hung next to your legs you would be restricted in size by clipping issues as it went into the legs, and design would be hampered by the different running annimations and body proportions between M/F/H.
If it's over the shoulder it can be a larger variety of sizes, and a larger potential maximum size as the body of it can always expand outward diagonally away from the shoulder, and when you run it would be up and away from the body not banging against it.
When it comes to visuals, I was actually mostly inspired by Harkonen 30mm man-portable cannon from Hellsing, as seen in a fan prop reconstruction here, so more something akin to a giant rifle, and held like one. I don't have a problem with it being held over the shoulder like a recoilless rifle, but the theme of the set is force of impact. What I'm designing here is a direct-fire kinetic force cannon, not a high-arc mortar. All of the attacks would have flat, straight shell paths with no arc to them, even the few grenades. I get that artillery cannons do fire with an arc at long ranges, but this look very silly at the ranges we fire at, making the projectile feel light, with no force behind it. M30 Grenade, for instance, feels like it's being lobbed as opposed to launched.
I agree that this would be a good set for artillery, as artillery is what I designed it around. I don't want just a very large rifle, I want an actual artillery piece held in the hand. Probably not quite a 150mm howitzer just because the barrel length you'd need to make the weapon look like a howitzer as opposed to a mortar would be untenable, but I'm thinking at least 75-85mm, longer than the character is tall and overall just BIG. Yes, Titan Cannon indeed 
For secondary effects, I can see knockdown being applied to the blunt force projectiles like the Solid Shot and the Grape Shot, but the armour-piercing ones I don't think should have it. The key feature of armour-piercing ammunition is that they concentrate their force on penetrating the target and impart very little of it as "push" on the entire target's body. Anti-tank kinetic penetrators, for instance, will often spear through armoured vehicles with so little "shake" that it looks like the round missed. I imagine this would splatter a soft target, but I can't imagine it would knock it back much.
As for the "Double Charge" mechanic, as I said - I want this to be a reload type thing. I can't call it "reload," however, since it needs to be a choice. If you HAVE to reload between every two shots, we might as well stuff this into the animation. So I need to explain why you can choose to reload, but if you DON'T choose to reload, you can keep firing anyway. I was thinking of maybe instituting a small recharge buff on Portable Cannon powers only every time the player recharged, but then I came upon the idea of ramming in a double charge of propellant as a way to both get an Aim/Build Up variant and to give the set some more punch like a cannon really should.
Honestly, I have to admit - the Portable Cannon set is almost crying for a Momentum type mechanic where reloading it makes you fire faster for a few seconds Sadly, that's been done, and it's considerably harder to pull this off with a special attack, as opposed to any attack that lands. As I said, this is something that players should ideally want to use after every attack, but NOT something that players will feel obligated to use, so those not wanting the extra animation time can just skip it. I'm open to suggestions as to what Double-Charge should do, but the point is that I want a power that's designed to be used after every shot.
Confidentially, I want a reload mechanic because I simply want to see a giant red-hot shell propellant casing ejected from the cannon as often as possible
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Dual Pistols called, they said that you're off their buddy list.| I get that artillery cannons do fire with an arc at long ranges, but this look very silly at the ranges we fire at, making the projectile feel light, with no force behind it. |
I don't think we need a power you have to do over and over to do the red hot shell casing deal. We've already seen how damage can come late in an animation or be delayed after it. It seems like it would be possible to have each attack fire suddenly, impact and deal it's damage to the target suddenly, but have a long animation like ejecting a shell and putting a new one in making you wait for the next attack.
Your double shot 'build up' could be even less complicated to program than TW momentum, in that it would not have to make damage come faster like TW does, it would just have to speed up the animation for a while and the character would reload at a frenzied pace.
The character reloading it could be tricky regardless, since multiple weapons would reload differently. Break action could be done, you just need all the weapons to break at the same point, or maybe shotgun style loaded from underneath could work, again you'd just need the bottom edge of the weapons to be roughly consistent.
EDIT--
I bet, if they have it in mind from conception, they could even do customized shell casing color on ejection. When you go to power customization, you just pick 'default' for brassy colored shells, 'bright' or 'dark' for glowing shells done like the glowing melee weapon blades are done, or 'metalic' for a metal color pallet of what color the shell widgets are coming out.
Program them like spines rather than like burst/slug, where it calls up a model. The shell would always be there, just hidden inside the gun you're holding. It would be neat when you're see-through in stealth you could see it! XD
As an in-game example that already exists, picture the Resistance Heavy Barrel guys, and their autocannons.
As to the OP;
YESyesYESyesYEEESSSSS! /Signed! Gimme! 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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In the case of Dual Pistols -> Bullet Rain, those bullets' trajectories are being curved and the bullets are being guided by pulling them in a certain direction. This actually works, in the sense that the projectile retains its ballistic trajectory, but still impacts with force. Artillery can do this in much the same way by having gravity pull the shell down, but when the shell speed is as high as it is coming out of a cannon, his effect is much more gradual. By making the shell arc more due to gravity, you make it feel like the muzzle velocity is much lower, to the point where the shell should actually tumble.|
Originally Posted by VKhaun
Dual Pistols called, they said that you're off their buddy list.
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I'm not saying this just to pick a tangent, by the way. There's something I forgot to mention - I DO NOT WANT any sort of con trail or flight path displayed for this cannon, and I REALLY don't want to see any of the projectiles in the air. This cannon should fire shells as several times the speed of sound, meaning we should never be able to see them in flight, and the hits should be instantaneous. One of the things that really bother me about Dual Pistols is the bullet paths. I understand they're necessary for that set to depict the different round effects, but for this portable cannon, I want the hits to be instantaneous and the projectiles too fast to see. The cannon fires and the target splats with nothing in-between.
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
I don't think we need a power you have to do over and over to do the red hot shell casing deal. We've already seen how damage can come late in an animation or be delayed after it. It seems like it would be possible to have each attack fire suddenly, impact and deal it's damage to the target suddenly, but have a long animation like ejecting a shell and putting a new one in making you wait for the next attack.
Your double shot 'build up' could be even less complicated to program than TW momentum, in that it would not have to make damage come faster like TW does, it would just have to speed up the animation for a while and the character would reload at a frenzied pace. |
I like it, actually. I just worry it might be a bit too close to Titan Weapons. Nevertheless, I still want to see the cannon spit out hot shells, I just expect it to spit them out of the side like a conventional gas-operated firearm, rather than requiring the user to open the breech and remove the shell manually. Best of both world
It might step on the toes of the T9 power, though. We might have to turn this into fully automatic, but VERY slow rapid fire.
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
The character reloading it could be tricky regardless, since multiple weapons would reload differently. Break action could be done, you just need all the weapons to break at the same point, or maybe shotgun style loaded from underneath could work, again you'd just need the bottom edge of the weapons to be roughly consistent.
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This sort of system is what I expect to be used here. I don't really foresee the character interacting with the weapon a whole lot. I could even see the weapon break open by itself and eject a shell casing by itself, then just have the character ram a new shell roughly in the location of where the breech would be and have that pop up into place.
Honestly, in this case, it's the visual I'm after more than anything else, and I want a system which causes this to happen often without actually making the whole set incredibly sluggish. I'm still open to better proposals as to how to implement this.
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
I bet, if they have it in mind from conception, they could even do customized shell casing color on ejection. When you go to power customization, you just pick 'default' for brassy colored shells, 'bright' or 'dark' for glowing shells done like the glowing melee weapon blades are done, or 'metalic' for a metal color pallet of what color the shell widgets are coming out.
Program them like spines rather than like burst/slug, where it calls up a model. The shell would always be there, just hidden inside the gun you're holding. It would be neat when you're see-through in stealth you could see it! XD |
This also has the extra benefit of making this not JUST a technology-based weapon. Suppose one of the customization options were a glowing magic rock? Suddenly you can claim this isn't just a conventional cannon, it's a magical cannon because see? You're loading it with very clearly magical ammunition! I like that a lot!
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
As an in-game example that already exists, picture the Resistance Heavy Barrel guys, and their autocannons.
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I get that it's good cannon design to have the largest bit of metal around the breech where most of the initial pressure is, allowing you to have a slimmer and lighter barrel, but these guys take it to extremes - big fat breech, long spindly barrel. That thing looks almost like a vacuum cleaner. I want one that's considerably longer and more uniform along it length.Which brings me to a point I've forgotten to make three times now - the weapon stance. It was suggested that this cannon be held over the shoulder like a rocket launcher, and the Resistance Heavy Barrels hold theirs slung underneath like a minigun. I dislike both of those stances for the simple reason that I want to depict this weapon as having incredible force behind its shots, which needs both recoil, and it needs that the weapon be held securely against the body so it can't jump out of your grip. Rocket launchers have almost no kickback as the propellant gas just escapes out the back of the tube, and tend to kick FORWARD at times, and your average minigun has so much weight in mechanisms its recoil is greatly diminished. About the only physical effort it requires is holding the thing up, which is why it's usually mounted.
I have a confession to make - my inspiration for this lies in a... Weird place. If you've ever played Emperor: Battle for Dune, you'll find it's a mediocre RTS at best. However, one unit there just blew my mind, and it was the House Atreides anti-tank infantry, who were... Snipers? Yeah, these guys were armed with "anti-tank rifles" bigger than they are, fired at extremely long range and tore tanks to shreds while hiding in cover. To date, this is the ONLY game where anti-tank infantry has not been armed with some kind of self-propelled rocket launcher. The concept of having a rifle that's big enough and powerful enough to punch hole in tanks at range... And that you can carry it with you never really left me
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Making it uniform down the length of the barrel means that you've got too much material out at the end of the barrel, making the weapon nose-heavy and wasteful of material. The breech and action have to be heavy to take the pressure when the propelling charge is ignited, but as the shell travels down the barrel the pressure behind it drops, reducing the barrel thickness needed. Look at historical examples of anti-tank weapons, such as the German 8.8cm PaK 43 L/71 (click on image for a bigger version):|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Like the Resistance Heavy Barrels, yes, but theirs are still kind of on the small side
I get that it's good cannon design to have the largest bit of metal around the breech where most of the initial pressure is, allowing you to have a slimmer and lighter barrel, but these guys take it to extremes - big fat breech, long spindly barrel. That thing looks almost like a vacuum cleaner. I want one that's considerably longer and more uniform along it length. |
Big fat breech, long spindly barrel.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Even if Tow would himself use something uniform or srmalloy would use something wide->spindly and I would use something massive, all of us would probably agree that there should be more than one option. So lets not fall into arguing over aesthetics.
With that in mind, it's best to assume we will need to carry a huge wide model to give Dink as much space as possible within which to vary the dimensions of the different weapons. Check out beam rifle. Held higher than the AR she can put stocks on them without clipping badly, she can make them huge and tall away from the character like the DUST cannon, or smaller designs like resistance and the new one we're seeing with Mecha.
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Exactly, yes. I expect to be carrying something that's very wise and very long. My rule of thumb measurement is that the weapon should be longer than the character is tall, at least by a little, for the "average" weapon model. Bigger and smaller are obviously acceptable. I would actually quite like the Beam Rifle stance for this, if possible, but that depends on the type of cannon we go for. However, I'd still like most of it to be forward of the shooter's shoulder, with as little of it behind the shooter as we can get away with.|
Originally Posted by VKhaun
With that in mind, it's best to assume we will need to carry a huge wide model to give Dink as much space as possible within which to vary the dimensions of the different weapons. Check out beam rifle. Held higher than the AR she can put stocks on them without clipping badly, she can make them huge and tall away from the character like the DUST cannon, or smaller designs like resistance and the new one we're seeing with Mecha.
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(For the record, I like that Howitzer a lot. It has a fat breech, but it's not THAT much fatter than the barrel and the overall length of the weapon balances this out. The Resistance Heavy Barrel has a thinner, shorter barrel to a wider breech.)
With all of that said, there's only the set's "gimmick" left to pick, which is whatever we come up with to replace Aim. So far, we've established that we either want this to be a Claws -> Follow Up type damage buff, or otherwise a Momentum type animation speed up by removing the manual reload animation from powers. I'm struggling for extra ideas, however. What else can it be, aside from just Aim?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If I'm following this right...
We want a bolt action with a magazine. The regular shots like your T9 and T1 fire from the magazine, which we do not load or reload, it's just a gun that shoots like any other in CoH. Your special rounds are loaded by opening the bolt and inserting a per-power customized round as part of the power's animation, then firing.
This narrows the point that must be uniform on the weapons to JUST the bolt and breach spot. The bolt lever they grab could be changed, the rest of the weapon could be any dimensions or proportions between models, and the magazine could be internal or external because we don't directly interact with that part.
The obvious answer for build up to me, would be to load and fire more than one special shell. "Special Load" would be a buildup-like animation and the next special shot you fired instead of Load->Fire, would be Load, Load, Load, Load -> Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire.
EDIT--
Four AoE's or four burst attacks sound OP but you gotta factor all this animation time killing your DPA. Even if IS four 16xAoE's in a row, in that much animation time (4x load + 4x fire) you could have activated a full rotation of attacks on a regular +100% build up power for double damage. If you fired a cone(10), AoE(16), pierce(5), and a burst(1) that'd be 32, +100% damage count that as 64. 4x16=64 hits. It's a rough guesstimate, and it could be pretty OP to fire a burst damage attack four times in a row, granted, but we'll let the devs crunch the numbers. Maybe make the burst damage ammo a bit toned down compared to other burst attacks in the game. Or, just have it vary by ammo. The AoE fires four times, the cone six or seven, the line five, the burst damage only two or three. Whatever.
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That's not quite what I had in mind, but what you're suggesting is not a bad idea, visually speaking. Let me explain where I was going with this, after a quick Wikipedia search to make sure I have the right terminology |
Originally Posted by VKhaun
We want a bolt action with a magazine. The regular shots like your T9 and T1 fire from the magazine, which we do not load or reload, it's just a gun that shoots like any other in CoH. Your special rounds are loaded by opening the bolt and inserting a per-power customized round as part of the power's animation, then firing.
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What I'm talking about is a break-action weapon, with the break occurring at the breech of the cannon barrel, almost like a very, VERY large hunting rifle. No magazine, single-shot weapon. I realise my Tier 9 Semi-Auto Fire does kind of fly in the face of this, but I'm willing to make an exception for this one power. Like in a hunting shotgun, I want to see the weapon break open behind the stock, have the spent shell casing auto-eject and have the character manually ram a new one in, then close the weapon back up again.
I want this to have a reason to occur between every two attacks, but I also want the player to have the ability to skip it in some way. One way is to make a power which does this that the player will want to activate, which becomes usable only shortly after a shot is fired, or otherwise I want this to be baked into the animations but let the player skip it with a power of some sort.
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That said, I do actually quite like the bolt action idea, as well. I worry it might be a bit closer to a rifle than a cannon, especially since I'm talking 75-85mm barrel bore. A bolt action mechanism might look weird with a cannon that size. That said, a bolt action animation would take relatively little time in regular attacks, and considerably less than the time Assault Rifle wastes aiming and recovering from a shot, so it might free up the "build up" style power to do something else.
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
The obvious answer for build up to me, would be to load and fire more than one special shell. "Special Load" would be a buildup-like animation and the next special shot you fired instead of Load->Fire, would be Load, Load, Load, Load -> Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire.
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On the flip side, firing the same AoE four times, especially if it's Semi-Auto Fire, could be hugely devastating. One of the reasons AoE damage is not completely broken is not many characters have complete AoE attack chains. By chaining together four of the same AoE, you're essentially making a full AoE chain. Even worse, this can be used to string together four of, say, Heavy Shot, which I'm envisioning as a pretty solid attack balanced by a long recharge and a high endurance cost. Or, hell, I just looked at my powers list and I realise that if you chain four Incendiary Shots one after the other and stack four "ally-damage" auras on the same target, the results could be obscene.
I mean, I like the idea, but I'd rather relocate this to a separate power entirely - hence Semi-Auto Fire - rather than open that Pandora's box. It sounds like it would be awesome, but it ends up being so awesome it has to be balanced by annoyance, and we're back to the Snipe/Crash Nuke debate of "of course it has to such to use, it's too powerful."
I don't actually disagree with the idea of making a power take longer to fire but deal considerably more damage. You'll note that's more or less what I suggested in 4.a) of the Double-Charge power. However, in my case, I'm not sure if I'm not actually reducing the power's DPS or DPA.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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seems vaguely similar to my Railgun/Coilgun idea.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Similar, yes, in the general concept behind the idea. Where we differ is I'm after a fairly conventional type cannon without much advanced technology behind it. It's just a really big gun |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
seems vaguely similar to my Railgun/Coilgun idea.
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I don't know why, but conventional and even archaic technology taken to impossible extremes inspires me the most. I suppose that's why I like the Nemesis Army so much. They say the last days of an old technology are far more exciting than the first days of a new one, and I can kind of see why.That said, yours is not a bad idea, and the concept lends itself well to its gimmick. If I wanted to institute a heating up mechanic, however, we'd end up with the player having to swap barrels
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This has been rolling around in my head like a ball bearing in an empty salad bowl, so I figure I might as well suggest it. This is an idea for a large man-portable single-shot cannon, very likely as a Blast set. Here's how I foresee it working:
1. Solid Shot: You fire a single solid round out of your cannon. This deforms on contact, delivering most of its energy as blunt force, potentially knocking enemies down.
2. Sabot Shot: You fire a single thin armour-piercing round out of your cannon. This penetrates targets it hits, possibly dealing internal damage, causing enemies to "bleed" and take additional damage over time.
3. Grape Shot: You fire a bundle several large solid ball projectiles out of your cannon. These spread out upon leaving the barrel, pummelling a conical area in front of you and potentially knocking enemies down.
4.a) Double-Charge: You take time to reload you cannon manually, inserting double the standard propellant charge, causing the very next shot to deal considerably more damage. This power is only usable up to 10 seconds after a shot has been fired.
4.b) Double-Charge: You take time to reload you cannon manually, inserting double the standard propellant charge, causing subsequent shots to be slightly more powerful for the next 30 seconds. This power is only usable up to 10 seconds after a shot has been fired and can stack with itself up to five times.
5. Heavy Shot: You fire a kinetic penetrator round made of a special experimental material out of your cannon. This round is hard and heavy enough to penetrate any armour and cause significant damage. The material the round is made of also seems to be unstable, infecting any target hit with debilitating effects.
6. Canister Shot: You fire a canister of small ball bearings out of your cannon. These spread out upon leaving the barrel, peppering enemies in a wide arc in front of you. The pellets cause minor bleeding damage and wound targets, imparting a debilitating debuff.
7. Incendiary Shot: You fire an incendiary bomb out of your cannon. Upon contact, this explodes, coating a single target in thick, sticky fuel, causing significant damage over time. The flames are so intense that anyone standing within the vicinity of the burning target will also take damage unless they move away.
8. Fragmentation Shot: You fire a high-explosive round out of your cannon. This explodes upon impact, dealing damage to the target and showering all targets nearby in deadly shrapnel.
9. Semi-Auto Fire: For a short time, you are able to fire your cannon in rapid succession using basic ammunition, covering a thin, long arc in front of you. This attack continues until your barrel overheats, delivering extreme damage to all targets.
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A few footnotes:
I don't really have any secondary effects planned. Experience has proven I'm terrible at balancing numbers because my judgement is not objective. I just want the powers I've talked about "debilitating effects" to have some kind of debuff, but I can't say what kind and how much.
I also don't have a final idea on what I want to make the "Double-Charge" power. The idea for it is to be a "reload" type power which causes the cannon model to snap open at the breech, eject a shell casing and have the character ram a new generic-looking shell in. I don't want to force this to happen every time lest I slow the set to a crawl, which is why I want to present it as a buff of some sort that people will want to use as often as possible. Ideally, I want to design the set such that people want to reload after every shot, but can skip it if kiting is necessary.
That's all I have for now.