When/Why was dark regeneration changed?
By
ClawsandEffect,
Posted on: 2012-04-09 15:11 in Player Questions
I will try to hop on my Dark Armor guy later this evening.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
You're right Dark Regen is using the wrong animation, I demorecorded a Dark Regen animation and the demofile reads the MOV as BOOSTAURA. I logged into my Invul scraper and demorecorded the Invincibility animation and the MOV was listed as BOOSTAUEA_PRE_NOROOT.
Dark Regen is using the old Invincabilty animation. If I remember correctly BaBs went and changed a bunch of rooting animations into non rooting animations, (thank you BaBs).
There's a couple of powers that are using the wrong animations, but this mix up is the only one I can think of that forces a root on the character. A really long root.
I definitely hate the long "can't do anything else" period of Invincibility. Tough also has the same issue.
That makes toggle dropping a really annoying, and deadly, situation when they take long enough to retoggle for the enemy to use all their best powers and beat you down.
But, I tend to hate toggles as a "stupid idea if they're always up anyway". Making them auto powers that are always on(for self-affecting only ones) would be a much better idea that would require less system and server resources to track the status of.
But, I'm not in any position of influence to have my good ideas(at least some are good) heard.
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Nice catch. I bugged this for the rooting and duration on my Tanker, but didn't catch the actual cause.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
You're right Dark Regen is using the wrong animation, I demorecorded a Dark Regen animation and the demofile reads the MOV as BOOSTAURA. I logged into my Invul scraper and demorecorded the Invincibility animation and the MOV was listed as BOOSTAUEA_PRE_NOROOT.
Dark Regen is using the old Invincabilty animation. If I remember correctly BaBs went and changed a bunch of rooting animations into non rooting animations, (thank you BaBs). There's a couple of powers that are using the wrong animations, but this mix up is the only one I can think of that forces a root on the character. A really long root. |
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Toggle powers are significantly more powerful than auto powers. Without exception. |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
But, I tend to hate toggles as a "stupid idea if they're always up anyway". Making them auto powers that are always on(for self-affecting only ones) would be a much better idea that would require less system and server resources to track the status of.
But, I'm not in any position of influence to have my good ideas(at least some are good) heard. |
That's because toggle powers cost endurance while auto powers don't.
If all toggles were turned into auto powers, you can bet your bottom dollar they would all get nerfed to the level of current auto powers.
I had not noticed the Dark Regen bug, due to not having played my Dark Armor character in a while. I'll have to check it for myself later.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Any news on this at all?
ha, just saw my dog pull a 180 trying to just stop in the hallway.
Anyway, to answer your question - did you /bug this?
Also, try PM'ing Arbiter Hawk or Synapse.
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Or, they could try some new way of balancing them.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Toggle powers are significantly more powerful than auto powers. Without exception.
That's because toggle powers cost endurance while auto powers don't. If all toggles were turned into auto powers, you can bet your bottom dollar they would all get nerfed to the level of current auto powers. |
For example, everyone who has toggles slots them with, usually, at least one endurance reduction while taking Stamina and slotting that for endurance modification to boost recovery.
The end result is a "net zero" endurance per second loss, or even a "net positive" endurance per second gain, if at all possible.
How else do you think we are supposed to make the base 1.67 endurance gain per second, that we burn through easily with just 1-2 attacks at level 1-2, cover all the many powers we have at level 50?
We need endurance reduction and endurance recovery buffs BECAUSE we have too many powers and too much endurance drain.
Maybe it's time they rebalanced things so that we didn't need toggling(especially since they just suppress when mezzed now in most cases, meaning detoggling is almost gone, and they're mostly self-buffs we leave always on) and endurance drain for those toggles at the cost of losing endurance recovery buff effectiveness.
I'm not in favor of any nerf, such as a reduction in endurance recovery, but I really think we have "power overload" that causes "information spam overload" especially in the graphics and internet connections, so I wouldn't realyl mind that as "the price" for making toggles simpler and less of a load on systems and networks.
There are always options other than "leave everything the same and just hope it doesn't get worse when we add more".
AFAIK, auto powers have to update the server just as often as toggle powers. I guess the packet might be smaller since it doesn't have to send the endurance cost.
"Leave everything the same and hope it still works" is not always ideal; "change everything and hope it still works" tends to be worse.
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Well, it would likely save graphical load if the self-only toggles weren't all generating separate particle effects(maybe one effect for all of them which is applied if the character owns any of the powers that could apply it, or just relegate the graphics to the ones that affect enemies and could stay toggles and need to be known in PVP and possibly PVE) in addition to your point that it would save endurance cost information.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
AFAIK, auto powers have to update the server just as often as toggle powers. I guess the packet might be smaller since it doesn't have to send the endurance cost.
"Leave everything the same and hope it still works" is not always ideal; "change everything and hope it still works" tends to be worse. |
They could also reduce the need for them to update as often because auto powers are always on, and only affect self in every case I know of, such that they would only need to be applied when they turn on(after deactivating walk or coming out of a load screen) and their status could just be a permanent part of the character data stored for future reference on each client, requiring no information across the net for the power so long as the character's build has not changed since the data was collected.(I've really thought this through.)
I agree that changes tend to mess things up, but we're already at that point. This game has collected too many powers and information with all the incarnate powers, especially those with the 255 target limits and AoEs with 32-40 target limits.
I think it's time to go the other way a little and reduce the amount of stuff.
Consider all the powers we have that use identical animations and nearly identical particle effects. How could the be more efficient?
Could it not be possible to use the knowledge gained from dual pistols to pretty much combine Broadsword and Axe into one power set with a "free toggle", like the swap ammo powers, to change the secondary effects which are almost the only difference between Axe and Broadsword? Parry could probably be handled similarly, only having access to it when you choose the proper "free toggle". Could War Mace even be merged into one set with them?
Or, maybe they could just stuff all those powers into one set with mandatory and limiting choices like Arachnos Soldiers get, where they only get the crab spider backpack if they choose that tree, to limit their weapon costume selection and their powers to that set. IDK (Edit: Actually, they wouldn't need to limit the weapon selection if they all use the same animations. Secondary effects would be the only thing that would change.)
There have to be ideas, and we sure are not getting a better performing game over the years with less "effects overload".
I don't see why we need "obsolete" and "unwieldy" chunks of the game left in when they can remove parts that are mostly not in use or can be done better.
Why does updating a game, or any program, have to always be about "add more add more add more" when it could be about "make existing things better and remove bad things" and we would be just as happy?
Oh right, they switched to F2P so they need to do nothing but "add more", if they can get away with not working on existing stuff, to sell in the market for more money.
(I wish that were a complete joke.
)
Few things are more hilarious than playing through Neutropolis and watching every NPC lambast Neuron for his "even if it's broke, don't fix it, I've got new and exciting garbage to build" philosophy, then coming to the forums and seeing the devs apply it unironically. Yes, I agree.
But yeesh, you just proposed three different ideas that provide little or no clear benefit and offer several new and exciting ways to fundamentally break existing mechanics. You're in Neuron-mode here yourself. Auto powers that update only on loading screens would break SR scaling resists, Vigilance, and any number of other powers, not to mention the multitude of short-duration temp autos that are granted by other powers (eg, Mystic Fortune/Secondary Mutation buffs, Ion Judgement jumps, Achilles Heel proc), for example.
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LOL|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Few things are more hilarious than playing through Neutropolis and watching every NPC lambast Neuron for his "even if it's broke, don't fix it, I've got new and exciting garbage to build" philosophy, then coming to the forums and seeing the devs apply it unironically. Yes, I agree.
But yeesh, you just proposed three different ideas that provide little or no clear benefit and offer several new and exciting ways to fundamentally break existing mechanics. You're in Neuron-mode here yourself. |
I'll admit to that. I'm just throwing out ideas.
But, I don't think the developers' trouble is "figuring out and implementing things" but probably more "coming up with ideas for things to figure out how to do".
I'm sparking imaginations, I hope.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Auto powers that update only on loading screens would break SR scaling resists, Vigilance, and any number of other powers, not to mention the multitude of short-duration temp autos that are granted by other powers (eg, Mystic Fortune/Secondary Mutation buffs, Ion Judgement jumps, Achilles Heel proc), for example.
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None of the other things you mentioned would be affected by this change.
2) If anything would be broken then it would be short duration toggles like the Good Vs Evil Edition Jump Pack, which is currently "broken" in that it refreshes upon entering a loading screen while it is active so that it will last almost twice as long as intended while the recharge does not get extended.
Things already reapply when going through loading screens as the bugs with mastermind pets being resummoned and getting stuck proves as well as the old bug where all your toggles can turn off when you go through a load screen.
Either they already implemented my idea or the bug is already there and may even be made less of a problem by my idea.
(Edit 2: I don't know about the scaling resists of SR, and Widows who share that, but I think they would work alright. First, we could always leave those powers updating as they currently do since they are not completely static like other toggles/autos. Second, does it really update every 10 seconds, or whatever, like other auto powers or is there some other mechanic that makes it update even faster directly with the user health total? Third, there could be another way of handling those powers. One possibility is taking advantage of an effect like "Accelerated/Delayed" that Time Manipulation has such that the scaling resistances could be collected in one "update checking" power that will have each of those be activated by having heir respective auto power in the build. That would condense several powers being tracked across the internet connection into a single one.)
I'm just talking about simplifying, and them making more efficient, all these "self only, always on" powers into something that is truly 'always on", auto powers.
And of course, certain auto powers would improve performance by being baked into stats at the basic level rather than being powers that have to be updated and can be turned off by the "Walk" power, such as the entire Fitness inherent pool.
Seriously, why didn't they just bake all the fitness numbers into the base stats rather than having them be tracked constantly, causing even only a little extra load(which ends up adding up over all the powers in the game, "every little bit counts")?
1) Their justification for making it inherent was "everybody already takes it".
2) It's obviously not a problem just giving it to us at level 2, so why not level 1 baked in?
3) As soon as they made it inherent and freed up more power choices, the first thing begged for was "more enhancement slots" because they still always slotted Stamina and often Health as well. They could just bake in enhanced values.
I also think it would make us feel more "super", which this game sorely needs especially at low levels, because we could jump higher and farther and run faster and fly faster and "suck less wind" due to endurance issues early on if they just baked in SO enhancements levels.
Oh yeah, there is another idea.
How much do TOs suck? Do DOs solve the issue with the very few slots you have at level 12?
How about they just get rid of DOs and TOs and stick with SOs, or maybe even just roll them all into a type called "Basic Enhancements" that replace all regular original enhancements with ones that have no origin and boost to SO levels(which would not be unbalanced because you don't have much slots until the level we normally get SOs).
They could just delete DOs and SOs, change "Training Origin" to "Basic Enhancement" and it would work exactly as I have proposed.
That would also remove the need for that depreciating to-hit buff we have below level 20 as well because people could actually slot worthwhile accuracy enhancements.
If origins really don't matter then why do we even have enhancements with the old origins? It just makes it tougher to find drops you can actually use if your origin isn't the same as the enemy groups you are fighting. So, you end up just selling everything to the vendor and buying what you need with a lot less INF than you need because they only buy for a fraction of what they sell at.
These are all just the "tip of my tongue" ideas I just thought of, including the way to implement some within the existing system.
I bet the enhancements change and the Fitness pool change would do a rather noticeable job of improving performance and happiness of players as well.
Edit:
FYI, I don't even touch TOs anymore. I only use DOs because they are actually "noticeably" good enough to "get by".
I really would love to have SOs available at level 5, or lower, especially considering that certain numbers, like endurance usage and accuracy and recharge don't scale(you'll need as much of that at level 1 as level 50, actually more because you have fewer slots to try to squeeze "adequate" performance out of).
I don't see the harm in the suggestions put forth.
And actually, making TOs as powerful as SOs, in my idea, would do more to "train players" to slot enhancements than "Training Origins" ever did because they would have a noticeable effect that players could see and think "wow, enhancements are worthwhile" and "it seems this type is worth more than this other type, to me" rather than "enhancements suck, none of these TOs seem to do anything with my single slot".
I think one of the purposes of toggles not being auto is that not only do you have to make some consideration for the endurance cost, but also to make things like sappers dangerous. I can tell you now that if my brutes didn't have to worry about toggle dropping then my strategy when fighting malta would alter drastically.
I remember reading a post from Arcanaville a while back when she made a very convincing argument that in many powersets the auto powers should actually be stronger and the toggles weaker, in order to make taking and using the toggles an active decision rather than something you have to do.
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True, but Sappers are first to die in any fight due to "you can't attack without endurance" for everyone, even those without toggles.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
I think one of the purposes of toggles not being auto is that not only do you have to make some consideration for the endurance cost, but also to make things like sappers dangerous. I can tell you now that if my brutes didn't have to worry about toggle dropping then my strategy when fighting malta would alter drastically.
I remember reading a post from Arcanaville a while back when she made a very convincing argument that in many powersets the auto powers should actually be stronger and the toggles weaker, in order to make taking and using the toggles an active decision rather than something you have to do. |
They're still a problem with that ability.
And are we sure the developers are really happy with what Sappers do to toggle-dependent archetypes?
They don't really like mezzers detoggling them every 4-8 seconds, but they're happy with Sappers doing so i about the same time, especially when it is pretty much the only ability Sappers have?
I agree with Arcanaville. Powers should always be a choice. The more difficult it is to choose which power to "not take" in a set, the more fun the set probably is, rather than just being obligated to take the biggest effect powers and ditch the ones that seem too small. That is one of the difficult things about a Gravity/Time controller; everything looks so good.
They're just ideas to try to improve the game anyway. I know the enhancements idea and Fitness pool idea are really good though, and they should be done.
Edit:
After all, they made the blaster two lowest tier attacks usable while mezzed(and maybe usable without endurance? or while stunned from that?), which they are dependent on, so it would make sense if they made the toggle-dependent archetypes a bit easier by making the toggles "always on" and less of a pain. They already keep them on while mezzed, but endurance drain is also an issue.
And, how good is a tanker without toggles? I bet a tanker is about as good as a defender without most of its support primary if you take away the toggles. So, it would be a good idea to keep the tanker buffed so that he isn't that weak.
Also, most sets are defined by their "non-self only" toggles, and other types of powers, anyway.
Take Willpower for example:
Willpower has 9 powers, 2 of which are clicks, 1 aggro aura, 1 mez protection toggle and 3 auto powers, leaving 2 toggles that just provide buffs to survival.
1) The clicks and auto powers would pretty much remain the same.
2) The enemy affecting aggro aura would likely remain the same.
3) The mez protection toggle pretty much prevents mez complete, barring special circumstances, so it could be made auto easily enough.
4) The remaining two survival toggles are kept on by the mez protection so even they could be made auto.
Also, maybe they could use this opportunity to condense multiple powers into fewer powers and maybe add another click to some sets. After all, plenty of these melee characters have been called boring, specifically because you just "toggle on once and go" without ever having to look at your secondary again.
Another idea just out of nowhere....how tied to 9 powers per set are they?
Hold on, drop the pitchforks!
Sets tend to either have too many powers that we don't manage, they're just on, or too many powers to manage so that we ignore some or it's just too much work.
Maybe the "rule of 9" is a bit too much of a "sacred cow" that is holding sets back.
Epic archetypes don't have to follow the "rule of 9", even if they tend to have more than 9. You can play them just fine with a lot less, especially the Peacebringer and Warshade when they focus on just Dwarf and Nova so that they only have 6 or 7 powers to worry about at one time, mostly attacks.
Less powers would not be entirely a bad thing, especially if it was just by one in each set even.
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Question is regarding the dark regeneration power in the dark armor powerset for scrappers, tankers, stalkers, and brutes.
I mentioned this in a thread on the stalker forums, but upon checking several of my other characters, it appears that it is the same on other ATs as well. The listed cast time on the tooltip is 1.17 seconds, which is what I remember it should be, but for whatever reason it is considerably longer than this. Having played four separate characters over many months that use dark armor as a primary/secondary, I distinctly recall it being a very quick activation that did not root you in place. However, this no longer seems to be the case.
So what is the problem here? Was it changed at some point and the tooltip is out of date? Is it a bug? Am I remembering it incorrectly?
Edit: the current animation is the same one used for the invulnerability power: invincibility, which is listed as 3.00 seconds activation time.