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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I was referring to the "effectiveness" of KB in it's entirety. That means the damage and the KB mitigation. If something is on the ground and cannot shoot me until it gets up I also consider that part effective, scattered or not.
This is why I really feel this is just personal preference and I am clear who does not like KB, a fact of which does not and will not change it's actual effectiveness. It most certainly is not as effective for hitting outdoor spawns or farming no doubt. So once again I don't consider only a portion of the equation as the end all be all of any power which I why I enjoy the semi-chaotic nature of Energy Blasters and the PB stylistically. |
You're playing a Peacebringer. If you need KB to survive, you're doing it wrong.
The thing with Energy is that it is much easier to control- the only PBAoE KB is a nuke. Then it has mostly ST, also a Cone and a TAoE. Very easy to position with these moves.
And yes, KB does keep them from firing at you, but it does this for maybe 4 seconds. Then they get back up and are now so spread that you cannot hope to hit them all, short of Dawn Strike. This results in the fight lasting much longer (more than 4 seconds longer) and you actually taking more total damage than if you hadn't use the move at all.
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Nobody said anything about needing KB to survive mate. It's clear you don't prefer the nature of the set no need to make stuff up it is a YMMV type deal afterall. I mean you do realize some people like a different type of playstyle that Energy Blasters and PB's bring to the game right? |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You're playing a Peacebringer. If you need KB to survive, you're doing it wrong.
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I recognize it is not the most popular style and on teams it requires a certain degree of high level management with timing and use of powers many button mashers don't want to deal with, but some others like this style and want it to remain.
I have to say I remember a couple of hard campaigners regarding this very issue prior to Freedom and in the past as well. One thing I do support from the devs is even with changes made to the PB over the years, they have kept the base nature there for those us that love it and that I will support in the future if any further changes are ever made.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I didn't say anything about the levels but if you must know its 54's that I fight. The slows down spawn melting PB's and Energy Blasters are hardly the top choice for outdoor farming, but that applies to other AT's/powersets and is nothing unique to the PB.
In terms of mop up I don't have any issues with that, but I suspect those that don't take and slot the human blasts would as many have stated YMMV. Switching to nova is also clunky which would add to the annoyance factor for those it applies too. I don't and never have had this personal griefing issue and I suspect that is a YMMV deal as well. The personal style is much like an energy blaster and that is a particular style in the minority in the game for sure. |
I used to run a human only PB and I felt like the TAOE and Cone were comparable to Nova AOE's but let me tell you they're not. With perma Inner Light, a catalyzed Form Empowerment global, and Nova's inherent damage bonus the AOE is much better than the human form AOE's. The shifts still need to be sped up and toggle suppression needs to happen but there's no question that Nova is the most practical AOE form, due to Solar Flare and Seekers being gimpy. I'm willing to bet that you do not often solo 54x8 on your Peacebringer because if you did the location KB would drive you insane guaranteed.
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Earlier I suggested that both brands of Kheldian simply get a tAOE immobilize added to their primary with -KB so that knockback is essentially optional. Would you be opposed to this? It seems like it would be a simple fix, everyone's happy kind of thing.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Nobody said anything about needing KB to survive mate. It's clear you don't prefer the nature of the set no need to make stuff up it is a YMMV type deal afterall. I mean you do realize some people like a different type of playstyle that Energy Blasters and PB's bring to the game right?
I recognize it is not the most popular style and on teams it requires a certain degree of high level management with timing and use of powers many button mashers don't want to deal with, but some others like this style and want it to remain. I have to say I remember a couple of hard campaigners regarding this very issue prior to Freedom and in the past as well. One thing I do support from the devs is even with changes made to the PB over the years, they have kept the base nature there for those us that love it and that I will support in the future if any further changes are ever made. |
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Not really sure why you keep referring only to situations where you are solo outdoors trying to farm like you never team with Doms and trollers and everything always goes flying no matter what you do. That to me does not do this discussion justice. There are many ways and this is totally style based to reduce/mitigate the PBAOE KB in the set YMMV. It is clear you are not into the style ok I get it, but it still is effective for others.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
The thing with Energy is that it is much easier to control- the only PBAoE KB is a nuke. Then it has mostly ST, also a Cone and a TAoE. Very easy to position with these moves.
And yes, KB does keep them from firing at you, but it does this for maybe 4 seconds. Then they get back up and are now so spread that you cannot hope to hit them all, short of Dawn Strike. This results in the fight lasting much longer (more than 4 seconds longer) and you actually taking more total damage than if you hadn't use the move at all. |
The one thing in talking to the devs about this very topic they get what I am saying and their choices for changes reflect this.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Those powers are far from gimpy and that type of hyperbole is beneath this discussion. I totally would love to see the devs deal with the clunky transformations, I mean who wouldn't? We have been asking them for the five years I have played the game to deal with that separate issue.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I used to run a human only PB and I felt like the TAOE and Cone were comparable to Nova AOE's but let me tell you they're not. With perma Inner Light, a catalyzed Form Empowerment global, and Nova's inherent damage bonus the AOE is much better than the human form AOE's. The shifts still need to be sped up and toggle suppression needs to happen but there's no question that Nova is the most practical AOE form, due to Solar Flare and Seekers being gimpy. I'm willing to bet that you do not often solo 54x8 on your Peacebringer because if you did the location KB would drive you insane guaranteed.
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You would loose that bet. I actually have used the Harvey Carnie indoor office mission to farm them which suits my style perfectly.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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No I would not be opposed to that at all mate.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Earlier I suggested that both brands of Kheldian simply get a tAOE immobilize added to their primary with -KB so that knockback is essentially optional. Would you be opposed to this? It seems like it would be a simple fix, everyone's happy kind of thing.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Not really sure why you keep referring only to situations where you are solo outdoors trying to farm like you never team with Doms and trollers and everything always goes flying no matter what you do. That to me does not do this discussion justice. There are many ways and this is totally style based to reduce/mitigate the PBAOE KB in the set YMMV. It is clear you are not into the style ok I get it, but it still is effective for others.
The one thing in talking to the devs about this very topic they get what I am saying and their choices for changes reflect this. |
Please would you show me where I have even once stated farms or fighting outdoors? I have not, you are the only one that brings it up. Scatter is a problem everywhere. Thin hallways? The get flung two major directions and only really long cones can bring them back. Open area is hopeless, they get flung to the four winds and nothing will bring them back.
The only time when it would possibly actually increase kill time is in those tiny office rooms.
For the record, I do not farm anyhow.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Please would you show me where I have even once stated farms or fighting outdoors? I have not, you are the only one that brings it up. Scatter is a problem everywhere. Thin hallways? The get flung two major directions and only really long cones can bring them back. Open area is hopeless, they get flung to the four winds and nothing will bring them back.
The only time when it would possibly actually increase kill time is in those tiny office rooms. For the record, I do not farm anyhow. |
Yea I like to do normal missions (Dark Astoria arcs most recently) on all my favorite characters on 54x8 not necessarily to farm, though drops are always nice, but because it's fun and challenging to me. Also don't forget about KB getting stuff into geometry, but that will sometimes happen no matter how well you're utilizing it (gah, you're supposed to go against the wall, not through it!)
Anyways Darth I'm glad you're on board with the -KB immobilize idea, AIB would be pleased. We can agree to disagree about how we play our Kheldians but I'm glad we've reached an agreement... Now if only the devs would agree.
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It's the min/max increased killing time focus that lead me in that direction. I could care less if it takes me a second or two extra to kill because of scatter as long as I am enjoying myself and that is where this becomes a YMMV deal.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Please would you show me where I have even once stated farms or fighting outdoors? I have not, you are the only one that brings it up. Scatter is a problem everywhere. Thin hallways? The get flung two major directions and only really long cones can bring them back. Open area is hopeless, they get flung to the four winds and nothing will bring them back.
The only time when it would possibly actually increase kill time is in those tiny office rooms. For the record, I do not farm anyhow. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Oh well yea. If it is just having fun there is not much more you can do than knock everything all over the place, but you've been talking about the KB actually being effective, which I must disagree with.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
It's the min/max increased killing time focus that lead me in that direction. I could care less if it takes me a second or two extra to kill because of scatter as long as I am enjoying myself and that is where this becomes a YMMV deal.
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But yes, I agree completely that KB is fun, especially the out of control 'fling everything everywhere' sort.
I once spent a good few hours using Quasar on level 10 trolls in Skyway just for the hell of it. I think my record launch was 200 feet.
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I'll just refer to what I said above about effectiveness it is, it just is not the most effective ie min/max. To say it is not effective at all does not really make any sense when you take into account they are not shooting you during the transition time.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Oh well yea. If it is just having fun there is not much more you can do than knock everything all over the place, but you've been talking about the KB actually being effective, which I must disagree with.
But yes, I agree completely that KB is fun, especially the out of control 'fling everything everywhere' sort. I once spent a good few hours using Quasar on level 10 trolls in Skyway just for the hell of it. I think my record launch was 200 feet. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Players comparing Photon Seekers to Unchained Essence is IMHO what's been holding Photon Seekers back all these years. Comparing Unchain Essence to Photon Seekers only works if you disregard the level at which they are taken. At 26 Warshades get a power that effectively clones the damage and effects of the Seekers' self destruct, while Peacebringers have to wait until 32 for that kind of AoE burst damage. What do Peacebringers get at 26? Solar Flare. |
Originally Posted by Bionut911
Although I support the polar lights option...has anyone thought of Seekers as a spinoff of Unchain essence, rather than EEs..
I mean it's used like high damage AoE burst attack. If i were to compare at all I'd say those two powers are much better in comparison. With that in mind, it wouldn't be justified when comparing EEs and PS to support giving PB's their own lil' pets. (not that i wouldn't LOVE that) |
If you compare UE to PS, what happens at 32? Warshades get the choice between a nuke and an awesome duplicatable portable blasting fluffie, and Peacebringers get the choice between a nuke and .... nothing.
No. If you're going to compare Unchain Essence to anything, compare it to Solar Flare.
In other words, leave Unchain Essence out of Photon Seekers discussions.
EDIT - Not only that, but I hear the Righteous Brothers every time I read (or use) "Unchain Essence," which was only funny the first 5,476 times. Now it kind of annoys me. Stupid power of suggestion.
AlienOne, you really need to do a Youtube video montage of Unchain Essence against +4x8 spawns with "Unchained Melody" playing in the background. Now that would be funny.
Doo EET!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Glad you stopped by Smiling_Joe.
Given my suggestion, for how long would the 3 Polar Light type pets have to remain after exploding in order for Photon Seekers to be competitive with but not identical to Dark Extraction. (Let us assume that they have the same attack chain and deal the same amount of damage albeit energy instead of neg.)
45 seconds?
1 minute perhaps?
1 minute 15 seconds?
You wouldn't happen to have a spreadsheet for this would ya?
AlB I slept on your idea and it is growing on me. I like it a lot.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by AIB
Glad you stopped by Smiling_Joe.
Given my suggestion, for how long would the 3 Polar Light type pets have to remain after exploding in order for Photon Seekers to be competitive with but not identical to Dark Extraction. 45 seconds? 1 minute perhaps? 1 minute 15 seconds? You wouldn't happen to have a spreadsheet for this would ya? |
Oh, no. You're not sucking me back into spreadsheet hell again. Nope.
But I will say this: if you're going to preserve Photon Seeker's burst damage potential by keeping the explosion, you're going to have a hard time justifying even 45 seconds of sustained dps.
Bear in mind that high recharge builds (That's right. I'm balancing around IO's. If Arbiter Hawk can do it, so can I.) can get the recharge on Seekers down to around a minute.
So it's conceivable that Photon Seekers could give a massive burst, spawn polar lights for a PERMABLE dps boost that would - in combination with the self-destruct burst - leave essences in the dust.
So any polar lights spawned would have to be out for no longer than 30 seconds, and would have to be minion class.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Oh, no. You're not sucking me back into spreadsheet hell again...
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
But I will say this: if you're going to preserve Photon Seeker's burst damage potential by keeping the explosion, you're going to have a hard time justifying even 45 seconds of sustained dps...So any polar lights spawned would have to be out for no longer than 30 seconds, and would have to be minion class.
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Kheld brethren, I say to you, "Believe and you will behold!"
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Hey, Darth, you have idea stuck to the side of your face. Thought you should know.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
AlB I slept on your idea and it is growing on me. I like it a lot.
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As for the thread itself... One, I'm not getting into the knockback discussion. I know I don't stay nice during it, so I'm avoiding it all together. I'll just say I find it useful, and that yes, it needs to be used properly or the results are... *unwelcome.* And two, for the Seeking Essence bit of the idea, I'll bring up this old thread.
Wait, sorry, I mean this old thread.
Running through the SSA Blueside gave me inspiration, because I actually got to see what Penny's powers do! (Instead of just watching her die)
What if instead of summoning PB versions of fluffies, what if they had a pet similar to Penny's? Summon seekers at location, like the power does now, and a pet on caster that pulses a heal and, to better suit PBs, +end. It would be great synergy with LF, compensating for the crash, as well as Bridging the Stygian Circle gap.
It could be something that benefits from recharge, like fluffies, by allowing more than one to be summoned, like you can with Fluffys, while retaining the burst damage from PSs explosion.
Basically, I don't like the Idea of PBs getting a Color swapped Fluffy. They really should have their own thing, but the idea of them summoning a second type of pet when using Seekers is one I can get behind.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Given the average time of what most peoples Dark Extractions could survive for this could be closer to the truth and it maybe that they're still targetable and defeatable.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
So any polar lights spawned would have to be out for no longer than 30 seconds, and would have to be minion class.
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I am not sure if the Devs could put time behind making something essentially cooler rather than for balance purposes and without seeing how far PBs are behind WS ingame we could be in a dangerous loop of repeating ideas that will never happen. All I know is forum people do not make up much of the player base at all. I could log into anyones server and ask if people know so and so from the forums, in help channel and have no reply from anyone.
As someone farming with my PB, the KB is a bit welcomed and not too hindering *ducks*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I really like that idea. Personally, I'd accept fluffy-clones for peacebringers, but i think it could be done better. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Running through the SSA Blueside gave me inspiration, because I actually got to see what Penny's powers do! (Instead of just watching her die)
What if instead of summoning PB versions of fluffies, what if they had a pet similar to Penny's? Summon seekers at location, like the power does now, and a pet on caster that pulses a heal and, to better suit PBs, +end. It would be great synergy with LF, compensating for the crash, as well as Bridging the Stygian Circle gap. It could be something that benefits from recharge, like fluffies, by allowing more than one to be summoned, like you can with Fluffys, while retaining the burst damage from PSs explosion. Basically, I don't like the Idea of PBs getting a Color swapped Fluffy. They really should have their own thing, but the idea of them summoning a second type of pet when using Seekers is one I can get behind. |
One thing that makes 'shades incredible is that circle. It fills your endurance with three bodies, and fills your health with 2. That's the only real heal they have. Don't forget that eclipse also refills your endurance when activated.
So right there, in an instant a 'shade can turn god-mode and refill their endurance bar. Then, when they run out of steam, they can refill every 15 seconds or so with circle.
Peacebringers, get two heals, one of which isn't around very often (eBoost.) And on terms of endurance....they get conserve power which is nowhere near perma.
Having a pet that can grant you say...15% your endurance or even boost recovery would seriously help in terms of balancing the two different ATs (without copy/pasting abilities over.) This way peacebringers can be self reliant, and shades can make things that kill more baddies, and make more bodies, to fuel stygian circle.
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I like this.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Running through the SSA Blueside gave me inspiration, because I actually got to see what Penny's powers do! (Instead of just watching her die)
What if instead of summoning PB versions of fluffies, what if they had a pet similar to Penny's? Summon seekers at location, like the power does now, and a pet on caster that pulses a heal and, to better suit PBs, +end. It would be great synergy with LF, compensating for the crash, as well as Bridging the Stygian Circle gap. It could be something that benefits from recharge, like fluffies, by allowing more than one to be summoned, like you can with Fluffys, while retaining the burst damage from PSs explosion. Basically, I don't like the Idea of PBs getting a Color swapped Fluffy. They really should have their own thing, but the idea of them summoning a second type of pet when using Seekers is one I can get behind. |
But first let me comment on the other photon seeker ideas. If you do make them pets that stay alive and follow you to attack foes, they shouldn't have the PBAoE explosion anymore. I kinda find that pointless and wouldn't that mean that their AI would require them to run into melee range when summoned or after to explode? If I had pets that attacked and stayed around, I want them out of enemy range. I think making them more like Polar Lights is a cool idea because I would raise the PB DPS.
Now onto the Penny's pet idea. This is really cool! Maybe once you establish an "Essence Link" (cause penny and her pet have to establish a link) then you get a pulsing heal and a pulsing stun or something?
Orivon: Lv50+3 PB, Noviro: Lv50+1 WS, and many many more...
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I don't know what I'm doing different, but I've never had end problems on my PB.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
Peacebringers, get two heals, one of which isn't around very often (eBoost.) And on terms of endurance....they get conserve power which is nowhere near perma.
Having a pet that can grant you say...15% your endurance or even boost recovery would seriously help in terms of balancing the two different ATs (without copy/pasting abilities over.) This way peacebringers can be self reliant, and shades can make things that kill more baddies, and make more bodies, to fuel stygian circle. |
Orivon: Lv50+3 PB, Noviro: Lv50+1 WS, and many many more...
Solar Flare doesn't do enough damage to justify the scatter; Dawn Strike does. I don't see how you can onehit minions with it. At level 50 it has a base 67.12 damage, minions have something like 430 health. Even slotted with max damage and muscular alpha it comes nowhere close. Dawn Strike, on the other hand, has a base 216.88, and it is completely plausible to onehit minions with that. Also, Dawn Strike actually has a lower chance of knockback (75% vs 80%).
You sure you aren't confusing one with the other?
This is why I really feel this is just personal preference and I am clear who does not like KB, a fact of which does not and will not change it's actual effectiveness. It most certainly is not as effective for hitting outdoor spawns or farming no doubt.
So once again I don't consider only a portion of the equation as the end all be all of any power which I why I enjoy the semi-chaotic nature of Energy Blasters and the PB stylistically.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.