Serene Servant's Simple Seekers Solution

Maybe they are not talking and slotting conserve energy?

That or taking LF?

http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...ura.Light_Form

I don't use CE that often and if I do it's usually after nuking

Roger that.

I was thinking more along the lines of a pet pulsing 5% heal and +end, with the ability to get out about the same ammount as a Warshade can Get Fluffies.

Summon Seekers and...Boom! While that happens, one of these pets is summoned on you.

Then you get a consistant Heal and Endurance pulse as long as they survive. With enough recharge, a PB could see 2-3 on their own, and up to 4 in iTrial level buffage. Similar to WS pet availability.

Only thing is PB's DON'T need heals and endurance, they are very much self contained here. The additional pet "damage" is what would need to be the focus here IMHO.

Ok, while I thank all of you for your comments and counter proposals, it turns out that I still favor my suggestion.

I have given consideration to the numbers and have decided that, upon exploding, the Polar Light type pets should remain for 45 seconds.

First shalt thou summon the pet, which shall last, of seconds, 45. No more, no less. 45 seconds shall be the count, and the count shall be 45. 46 seconds shall not be, nor 44, excepting it then proceed to 45. 47 is right out. Once the number 45, being the duration, is reached, shall they expire, having smited thy enemies, who, having been naughty in thy sight, shall by now have snuffed it.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Alrighty then, a few questions

What numbers did you use to compensate for the fact that EEs can fail to summon whereas these would always summon?

How did you come to 45s, which if I'm not incorrect, would be a potential 3/4 uptime with a recharge build; with 3 pets immediately; and compared to the WS version that has to work up to 3 pets?

How do you justify, three of the same pet that WSs get, 3/4 of the time, with a large burst damage as a part of their summoning, or does the burst damage get reduced?

One of the bigger weaknesses of EEs is the fact that it actually suffers when WSs plays to it's strengths, mainly in the case of "Moar Bodiez!!" picking up stray aggro and getting killed. This becomes more problematic, with the recharge time of the power and the fact you only get one at a time. The suggestion you've given, as I read it, would recover from such an issue faster to full strength (considering three pets full strenth) is this an intended strength or an oversight?

Why thank you...I think.

In order...

1. I did not compensate for user error. While I recognize that this issue exists. I have learned to raise EEs sooner rather than later. I fail to summon an EE...and I'm guessing here...1 out of 100 times. Until it gets fixed, my advice on this matter is simply this, "Summon early and summon often."

2. It could be perma with some builds. However, these are few and far between. It is often affirmed that "this game is balanced around SOs." Therefore, I merely took 100% recharge reduction into account when comparing these powers (see below).

3. The burst damage can remain (unless of course, the Devs find it to be problematic).

4. Keeping your EEs alive can be difficult but it is not impossible (cf. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=273855). One really needs to learn how to strike first, keep aggro away from EEs, taunt enemies, position oneself and use buffs, such as Barrier, in order to keep them alive.

It is an intended strength. PBs could recover more quickly than WSs if their pets were to be destroyed. This constancy is in keeping with the self contained nature of the PB. Warshades have higher highs when all their pets are out and their damage is maxed. However, PBs remain remarkably consistent.

Here are some numbers...

Dark Extraction - 240 sec recharge

Photon Seekers - 180 sec recharge

1 Extracted Essence (Note: negative damage) = 1 Polar Light type pet (Note: energy damage)

1 Extracted Essence deals 1x damage per minute just as 1 Polar Light type pet deals 1x damage per minute (Note: Each is only out for 45 seconds)

Assuming 100% recharge reduction for both...

Dark Extraction 120 sec recharge - Means one can have out two Extracted Essences perma once he/she reaches minute marker 2 (Some will be able to have three out at a time...or maybe even four momentarily...)

(Note: ignoring the appx 3 sec cast time)

Photon Seekers 90 sec recharge - Means one can have out 3 Polar Light type pets for 45 seconds out of every 90 seconds (Some will be able to have them out more often...)

(Note: ignoring the appx 2 sec cast time)

Some scenarios...

WS Dark Extraction damage over 10 minutes 30 seconds

0 1x 1x 2x 2x 2x 2x 2x 2x 2x 2x 1x = 19x

PB Photon Seekers damage over 10 minutes 30 seconds

0 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x = 15.75x + initial explosion damage

WS Dark Extraction damage over 4 minutes 30 seconds

0 1x 1x 2x 2x 1x = 7x

PB Photon Seekers damage over 4 minutes 30 seconds

0 2.25x 2.25x 2.25x = 6.75x + initial explosion

WS Dark Extraction damage over 3 minutes

0 1x 1x 2x = 4x

PB Photon Seekers damage over 3 minutes

0 2.25 2.25 = 4.5x + initial explosion damage

I believe that this change would help to solve the damage disparity dilemma between WSs and PBs.

Another thing worth mentioning here is Gravitic Emanation not only to push enemies away from your pets, but to stun them also. Layered with Inky Aspect and/or Unchain Essence, and with use of provoke (Dwarf Antagonize in AIB's case) it is much easier to keep pets alive. Ideally I think EE's should be a bit more survivable, but the main thing that would help in that department is if the AI told them to never get close to melee range. As for Emanation, I find it helps to always keep my pet window open. If I see an EE in trouble, I can click on it in my pet UI and either use provoke or Emanation in order to "rescue" it. This is especially convenient if you're flooded with enemies and it's hard to eyeball the exact problem location.

Glad you followed it. Now, I hope you can find your way back .

As I have said before, I am against proposals I deem to be "radical." Previously, I have defined them as those that would, "require a significant amount of time for the Developers to implement and/or would alter the accustomed way(s) in which the great majority of Kheldian users have used and still use their Kheldians."

Perhaps a reference to Occam's razor is apropos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor).

Regarding your indecision...

I urge you to hop on board, for this ship is sailing away. Share in this grand vision.

What I say to you, I say to all, "Rally as one and we shall realize our destiny!"

Oh, that's right, I forgot about how useful KB ("push enemies away" ) and stun are for protecting fluffies. I am glad you were around to point that out to us. Mwahahaha.

Oh, and about that whole stun thing, is that really in keeping with your Shade's personality? Don't you want your enemies to be fully aware that they are about to...die...???

Later Sept.

Hey, I've never said I have a problem with deliberate and controllable KB like Emanation- You get to pick where you throw stuff. The only KB that I have an issue with is the random scatter that can't be used deliberately, like Seekers and Solar Flare.
They'll be aware when their soul is following me around, shooting negative energy at their pals.

If my suggestion were to be adopted, whenever Photon Seekers would be used like a mininuke, 3 pets would manifest and unleash a whole lotta hurt on those that got scattered.

Oh, that's right, I should have thought of that...

Now here's a question for you: What if the initial "BOOM!" KB of Seekers was replaced with an AOE stun, followed by your adaptation of Polar Lights working how you've laid out? This would serve the multipurpose of retaining utility in seekers, adding an AOE stun making Pulsar a more viable power (a means of layering mez) and it would remove the unpredictable location AOE Knockback that myself and many others find annoying.

It could be a mentality thing, but I don't see a disparity so much as a difference. Seekers do kinda suck nuggets, but I don't see the difference in damage between ATs as the problem.

This is an issue. The devs do indeed balance with IO's in mind, and I've never actually seen a dev use the "This game is balanced around SOs." quote. The game "Was not made more difficult with the addition of IOs."

Even with that said, sniping numbers for size, I don't agree with much of the mentality. Most importantly:

Using PB consistancy and self contained nature to justify, on a medium recharge build where the gap would decrease as IOs are added, such a small gap as you described as the "higher high" is a bit off.

This is also a part of the "Higher High" and sort of what I was getting at with the question. User error is part of the gameplay. Use the powers at maximum, and you get your "higher high" make a mistake and you suffer. It also ignores the fact, that I didn't mention as I didn't feel the need, some enemies don't leave bodies. Preventing the power's use; which isn't user error.

Giving PBs an power thats 80% EE, with the potential to be EE+, is not the way to go.

As much a people might not like it, PB damage is as self contained as it's survivability. However PBs surviviability can cap resistances now, I believe cap health, and has a reliable heal. Apparently PBs have enough survivablility and self buffs that they don't need a counter to Stygian circle; that just tells me that their "self contained" survivability is at least the level of the WS "Higher high".

So, I guess the question is:

Why damage? Right now PBs are self contained with Damage and survivability, and are supposedly supposed to be lower than WSs max with "Bodies!!" but much more reliable with less ability for user error. That doesn't seem to be the case with survivability, as they seem to have at least as much as the WS high. Do we really need to close the damage gap; that's actually supposed to be there?

Right now Warshades have very strong control capability, as well as some debuff potential and no outside buffs.

Peacebringers have much weaker control, a decent bit of debuffs, and some outside buffs.

Wouldn't that be a better target? Make PBs better at some utility area than WSs, likely outside buffs.

I still don't agree with keeping the nuke. If you keep the nuke and add attacks, the AI would want to run into melee since it needs to explode. I don't want the pets to run into melee everytime they're out. Unless the pets that explode summon new pets (Polar Lights) that then follow you and stick to range. Idk. I think PBs need more DPS, not burst damage.

The primary purpose of this proposal is to resolve the damage disparity dilemma that has been a constant topic of conversation within this community. The recent change to Photon Seekers and the introduction of Inner Light was a nice start; now I just want to Devs to finish what they began.

I like the idea of adding a stun component to Seekers in order to make Pulsar (btw Devs, please raise the mag) more viable. Your suggestion reminds me of Seeker Drones though that power is cast differently and does several other things.

However, I like the initial boom KB of Seekers and would not want that mechanic to be altered for the added stun.

1. What do you see as the problem?

2. If you don't like my 100% recharge reduction then what percentage do you think would be more appropriate?

3. Here is a loading screen tip, "The Invention System is completely optional, if you don't like it, ignore it. They game wasn't made harder to compensate for it." You should dig through the forum and see if you can find what it used to say. I too, have never actually seen a dev use the "This game is balanced around SOs" comment, it is just a constant refrain I find upon the boards. Regardless...

4. What numbers do you think would be more appropriate?

5. Should I use a low recharge build or a high recharge build instead?

6. The "higher high" comment was about Warshades (e.g. "when all their pets are out and their damage is maxed" (because the have used both mires to make it so).

7. You're right, some enemies don't leave bodies. And sometimes, there aren't enough enemies to cap damage resistance with Eclipse. And sometimes, there aren't enough enemies to have out multiple Extracted Essences. And sometimes there aren't enough enemies to cap one's damage with Sunless mire and Dwarf mire. But when these things are present, and you successfully avail yourself of them, you wind up having...a...Higher High than a PB with your Warshade.

8. And what is the way to go?

9. With my proposal the PB's damage would still be self-contained.

10. I don't recall speaking about PB's survivability. One thing that you are overlooking is that PBs do not cap Psi resistance with Light Form.

11. ...

12. Why not?

13. How do you know that the "damage gap" is "actually supposed to be there?"

14. Clearly you think so. Perhaps, you should start a thread with your comprehensive solution(s).

That damage disparity will still be there if the revamped version still has the scatter. It doesn't do any damage at all if I don't take it.
Why would you like the scatter? With the exception of closed spaces, it will inevitably grief all of your other AOE attacks. If the initial 'BOOM!' was like Repulsion Bomb, you would have targeted AOE Knockdown with a chance for stun component, followed by your 'summon Polar Lights' idea.

They have a counter to Stygian Circle... Reform Essence and Essence Boost. Warshades still have marginally higher potential for survivability than Peacebringers do, so this is not a justification for any damage discrepancies between the two. The tradeoff is that where Warshade's survivability can be marginally better than PB's, the latter is more consistent. This is where the Shade's stuns come into play, which has the benefit of also adding team utility. You can't take the more consistent but generally comparable and very often lower survivability of Peacebringers and use it as a justification for less damage potential, because it just plain doesn't make sense.

Indeed...

I like the way it looks and feels. I do not find it annoying because I generally use Photon Seekers as a mini-nuke followed by Dawn Strike or I use them as a mini-nuke then switch to Nova while jumping in some direction to position myself to unleash more AOE damage.

I would be fine with changing it to AOE Knockdown, especially if it were to gain stun potential in the process.