Sounds good. I wouldn't worry too much if they turn out better than the Essences, due to Warshades having such a large advantage right now. I doubt any (reasonable) person would complain if Peacebringers had the superior pets.
Also they should do KD instead of KB so they're useable.
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That too. Though, with all the KB flying around with a PB, much of it being PBAoE, a bit more can't hurt all that much. Yes, it would be uncontrolled, but you'd be hard pressed to not scatter mobs anyhow.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Also they should do KD instead of KB so they're useable.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
That too. Though, with all the KB flying around with a PB, much of it being PBAoE, a bit more can't hurt all that much. Yes, it would be uncontrolled, but you'd be hard pressed to not scatter mobs anyhow.
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Exactly why I don't use Solar Flare or Seekers on my Peacebringer. All the other AOE powers can be used in a way that doesn't have to scatter mobs all over the place.
There's also another solution for the KB problem: Give Kheldians a tAOE immobilize with -KB. Tada. Knockback is now optional.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Sounds good. I wouldn't worry too much if they turn out better than the Essences, due to Warshades having such a large advantage right now. I doubt any (reasonable) person would complain if Peacebringers had the superior pets.
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You can always kind of know roughly the level of performance that you can get out of Photon Seekers if you use them within a tight bunch of mobs unlike Dark Extraction.
Dark Extraction can function amazingly and particularly well in teams. Someone else may do the tanking, aggro may never defeat them, they may last their 200s. Perfect dynamics aren't often seen though.
Solo, it depends on how good a tank mage are you? With Dwarf they're easy to keep alive but how many people would remain in just Dwarf? Or have a particularly good antagonize? Or in human can happily rely on Provoke?
Ideally Dark Extraction would produce all it can on paper and make Photons look like a piece of **** but in reality sometimes it can be the other way around. I don't know who the best person is to watch with their WS and their Dark Extractions but they would be very interesting to see. The likelihood of cone damage everytime it recharges is highly questionable, due to range and then the number of targets it will hit is also due to whats left. So outcome vs potential is way less than with Photons. That's not saying they're worse than Photons.
I can see a dynamic within a team that can work and make Dark Extractions "way out exceed" Photon Seekers just not by as much as we might like on paper. I can see how some people might get more bang for buck out of Photons solo.
I guess a Dev might concern himself with rewards/time on this. The average result being the important one. The average result might not lend itself to seeing PBs buffed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I picture them functioning like EEs (same type of attacks) in other words...scatter not detonation.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Also they should do KD instead of KB so they're useable.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
There's also another solution for the KB problem: Give Kheldians a tAOE immobilize with -KB. Tada. Knockback is now optional.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=281076
(I think one small problem here is that T Tentacles doesn't have -KB. But, that could be easily rectified.)
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But the initial explosion of terribleness would still be enough for me to not take Photon Seekers.|
Originally Posted by AIB
I picture them functioning like EEs (same type of attacks) in other words...scatter not detonation.
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Which could easily be done via Umbral and Luminous Mastery. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=281076 (I think one small problem here is that T Tentacles doesn't have -KB. But, that could be easily rectified.) |
I wouldn't want a cone immob, I want a tAOE. >.>
Unless I feel like letting the Essences die to absorb alpha, they don't. I run on 2x8 most of the time, and still keep them from dying. Normally all three are up at a time, and far outclass Photon Seekers. As well as what has bee previously mentioned- Seekers cause scatter, Essences do not.
KB is not an AT or powerset problem it is a personal problem.
Some people use KB and proper KB mitigation on the sets that have it right now just fine and like it and others prefer some other powerset or AT that does not require KB mitigation. WAI.
Regarding OP suggestion it is not bad it is good, but I think the ROA type targeted ranged option is more appealing.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
KB is not an AT or powerset problem it is a personal problem.
Some people use KB and proper KB mitigation on the sets that have it right now just fine and like it and others prefer some other powerset or AT that does not require KB mitigation. WAI. Regarding OP suggestion it is not bad it is good, but I think the ROA type targeted ranged option is more appealing. |
The KB in SF and PS are a powerset problem because it can't be used deliberately. Location KB where the point of impact is right there like that can't be used to reposition spawns deliberately, so the "good KB" argument doesn't apply.
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Whether you summon them ROA/Seeker Drone style, or as they are currently summoned, the main point is that when they explode you have 3 Polar Light type pets that will be there to continue to deal damage.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
...Regarding OP suggestion it is not bad it is good, but I think the ROA type targeted ranged option is more appealing.
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Their timer will not be as long as EEs but it will be long enough to allow them to do enough damage, when coupled with their initial explosion, to be competitive.
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KB in any power can absolutely be used effectively SF and PS are no exception. It is not a powerset problem it is a personal preference problem.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The KB in SF and PS are a powerset problem because it can't be used deliberately. Location KB where the point of impact is right there like that can't be used to reposition spawns deliberately, so the "good KB" argument doesn't apply.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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When it comes from a pet, it cannot be used effectively, period. They WILL use it in ways you don't want. Even Masterminds can't control this. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
KB in any power can absolutely be used effectively SF and PS are no exception. It is not a powerset problem it is a personal preference problem.
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Solar Flare also can hardly be used for positioning. Its a PBAoE heavy knockback move. Unless you have a convenient corner ready every time you want to use it, scatter will occur.
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That would require some additional balance adjustments but I see your point.
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Originally Posted by AIB
Whether you summon them ROA/Seeker Drone style, or as they are currently summoned, the main point is that when they explode you have 3 Polar Light type pets that will be there to continue to deal damage.
Their timer will not be as long as EEs but it will be long enough to allow them to do enough damage, when coupled with their initial explosion, to be competitive. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I disagree that hitting targets with a mini nuke is ineffective. I don't know your slotting but mine kills most minions and does significant damage to those above them, which of course is what I consider effective. |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
When it comes from a pet, it cannot be used effectively, period. They WILL use it in ways you don't want. Even Masterminds can't control this.
Solar Flare also can hardly be used for positioning. Its a PBAoE heavy knockback move. Unless you have a convenient corner ready every time you want to use it, scatter will occur. |
I suspect you are talking solely about the directional aspect of things which I feel is shortsighted in this equation.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I disagree that hitting targets with a mini nuke is ineffective. I don't know your slotting but mine kills most minions and does significant damage to those above them, which of course is what I consider effective.
I suspect you are talking solely about the directional aspect of things which I feel is shortsighted in this equation. |
We don't all fight +1's and +0 no bosses with our characters, lol. Photon Seekers might kill a few minions and take less than a quarter from LT's but on 54x8 the scatter slows down spawn melting, the damage isn't worth how long it takes to mop up after the KB. It griefs how many targets you can hit with your other AOE's to the point that it's faster to not use Seekers or SF.
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I referred purely to KB as that was what you were referring to. You cannot use PS's knockback effectively, they must be right on top of a mob a explode. And they move. Not to say the move cannot be effective, but the knockback can't. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I disagree that hitting targets with a mini nuke is ineffective. I don't know your slotting but mine kills most minions and does significant damage to those above them, which of course is what I consider effective.
I suspect you are talking solely about the directional aspect of things which I feel is shortsighted in this equation. |
Solar Flare doesn't do enough damage to justify the scatter; Dawn Strike does. I don't see how you can onehit minions with it. At level 50 it has a base 67.12 damage, minions have something like 430 health. Even slotted with max damage and muscular alpha it comes nowhere close. Dawn Strike, on the other hand, has a base 216.88, and it is completely plausible to onehit minions with that. Also, Dawn Strike actually has a lower chance of knockback (75% vs 80%).
You sure you aren't confusing one with the other?
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I referred purely to KB as that was what you were referring to. You cannot use PS's knockback effectively, they must be right on top of a mob a explode. And they move. Not to say the move cannot be effective, but the knockback can't.
Solar Flare doesn't do enough damage to justify the scatter; Dawn Strike does. I don't see how you can onehit minions with it. At level 50 it has a base 67.12 damage, minions have something like 430 health. Even slotted with max damage and muscular alpha it comes nowhere close. Dawn Strike, on the other hand, has a base 216.88, and it is completely plausible to onehit minions with that. Also, Dawn Strike actually has a lower chance of knockback (75% vs 80%). You sure you aren't confusing one with the other? |
Yep, also DS has such a large radius that it can be used as an effective positioning tool, just line it up like a cone.
edit I think he was talking about KOing minions with Seekers, pretty sure that's doable but still not worth it.
In the words of a famous fat fighter pilot....
"Stay on target."
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Originally Posted by AIB
In the words of a famous fat fighter pilot....
"Stay on target." |
I am on target. Providing a solution for the KB issue in Photon Seekers (and Solar Flare incidentally) is a very pressing issue and a big part of why the power is lackluster.
Also,
Although I support the polar lights option...has anyone thought of Seekers as a spinoff of Unchain essence, rather than EEs..
I mean it's used like high damage AoE burst attack. If i were to compare at all I'd say those two powers are much better in comparison.
With that in mind, it wouldn't be justified when comparing EEs and PS to support giving PB's their own lil' pets. (not that i wouldn't LOVE that)
Well then, this wouldn't be upgrading, so much as adding an entirely new thing in that perspective. By that reasoning, which is completely reasonable, I reason that adding pets to the move would make it some sort of reasonable combination of UE and EE, thus taking nothing from PBs and giving them some nice shiny pets.
I find this utterly reasonable. And yes, I'm being serious. Just get a little silly when it gets late.
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I didn't say anything about the levels but if you must know its 54's that I fight. The slows down spawn melting PB's and Energy Blasters are hardly the top choice for outdoor farming, but that applies to other AT's/powersets and is nothing unique to the PB. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
We don't all fight +1's and +0 no bosses with our characters, lol. Photon Seekers might kill a few minions and take less than a quarter from LT's but on 54x8 the scatter slows down spawn melting, the damage isn't worth how long it takes to mop up after the KB. It griefs how many targets you can hit with your other AOE's to the point that it's faster to not use Seekers or SF.
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In terms of mop up I don't have any issues with that, but I suspect those that don't take and slot the human blasts would as many have stated YMMV. Switching to nova is also clunky which would add to the annoyance factor for those it applies too. I don't and never have had this personal griefing issue and I suspect that is a YMMV deal as well.
The personal style is much like an energy blaster and that is a particular style in the minority in the game for sure.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
For the most part, Photon Seekers function as they do now.
However, upon exploding, each Seeker is replaced by a Polar Light type pet. These three pets deal damage and remain for a long enough period to make them competitive with, though not identical to, Extracted Essences.
Burst damage for the win.
By the way, remember to take into account the damage inflicted by their initial explosion when calculating how long these pets should remain.
I have not examined the numbers but suggest that a 45 second timer might be a good starting place