I find this an interesting question as well. I'm a new player and looking how to level my first character to 50. It's a /regen brute and I don't think it's going to be anywhere near defence capped in the near future. See this tread for details: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=286204
I have a TW/Regen. And without defence I get destroyed. Especially with the low res of Regen. Also in trials stray aoe = dead
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Most high end /Regen builds already do this (go for high recharge) then add substantial amounts of defense (as it is basically impossible to build up much resistance via IO set bonuses). If by high end game you mean iTrial/Incarnate stuff without either much defense or resistance to back up the regen ... what you'll have is a rather squishy melee character by high end build standards. | I was thinking of making a /regen brute and focusing on bumping up his recharge rate to ridiculously high levels, to see how that plays in the high end game. Has anyone tried this? I haven't seen any posts about it but I may not know where to look. |
But hey my defenders generally pack Vengeance (and the Rads usually have at least one build with Fallout), get Rise of the Phoenix or Soul Transfer and you'll contribute one way or another
There's also the fact that often there's a ton of buffs flying around typically so unless the league make up is very melee oriented you'll likely have a good bit of defense and resistance buffs even if its all from outside sources ... and unlike many builds out there they will not be "wasted" on you. And to be clear that isn't a sarcastic comment (entirely
). I've seen some rather specialized (or odd) builds based on the fact enough acc or dam or +recovery or 'what have you' is getting stacked so the build itself doesn't bother with providing it. Kinetics builds with no damage enhancement, empath builds with no acc, or endred (An Emp/Rad's Irradiate, for example, slotted with 3 damage and 3 rech IO's because stacked Fort, multiple Tactics and stacked Recovery Aura lets one do that). The question would be what advantage can you get from focusing only on recharge and regen/heal (with no +defense) that most high end /Regen builds can't also offer (who will have +defense added atop high recharge and regen/heal)?
Doomguide
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I recently had a big argument about this on virtue Help Chat. Basically, the person was saying it is impossible for a resist only based melee to 'tank' things. Pretty much whatever point I tried to make, about this statement being rubbish, he would then go and change his argument.|
Originally Posted by Curveball
... so the defense cap is neat, and when you actually manage to hit it, after all your careful planning, etc., there's definitely a feeling of satisfaction. Also, the 42% defense is nice to have.
All that said, I'm now curious if it's possible to have an effective, contributing character without it. Once upon a time back when defense was effectively useless against bosses, elite bosses, and AVs, this was pretty easy. You basically tried to max out your primary defense -- regen for regen sets (well, for regen) and resists for armor sets. These days though it seems your primary defense set is actually your secondary defense set, and your primary defense set is essentially trying to reach the defense cap for at least S/L. So... what would happen in today's game if you didn't? I was thinking of making a /regen brute and focusing on bumping up his recharge rate to ridiculously high levels, to see how that plays in the high end game. Has anyone tried this? I haven't seen any posts about it but I may not know where to look. Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts were on this. |
Back to what you are asking though...my answer is to build your toons the way that YOU like and can afford and are comfy with playing. Playing something you like is always going to be more fun than copying a softcapped s/l SS/Fire/Soul/Dime a dozen build someone else did, and using that. Unless all you want to do is farm tickets or do everything at 4/8, you really do NOT need that defence on a set that did not actually have it.
I have a few no defence set melees (elec, fire, dark, regen) and all of them are built for other things. Recovery, accuracy, procs, efficent attack chains, etc etc. Sure, having 35% def WOULD make them better, in that regard, but usually ends up gimping other aspects.
I dont actually run any toons expect my mm on 4 and 8..because, even though some alts could, I just dont find it enjoyable. So for that, I get by just find with no def. On trials and big tfs..you have your team. As Char said..use your team mates. If buffs are scarce, play a bit more cautious. Sure, teh idea of NOT being first into a mob may make some scrappers mad, but if you are just going to go pop being first..it isnt a hard choice.
Also, have heard many stories and read many posts about super build XXX who like, totally pwns 54 council and cot (cause those mobs are uber) but then face plants vs carnies, malta etc etc. Especially on iTrials, the mobs always seem to have something that WILL hurt whatever build, no matter what you do.
My own weird opinion of build resist toons for def is that it is..sort of cheating. Well, maybe cheating is an over strong word, since it is really just building to be the best it can be. But I just dont think that the devs would have made sets without defence, if it was totally impossible to play these sets...
That said..Def beats Res, every time. Add in how much easier it is to get IO +def and it is even more obvious. So back to your question, since I got a bit lost..Building a regen brute JUST for recharge, will be fine. Just be a bit careful vs certain mobs.
(Oh, forgot to add something due to dinner. I had recently build two defencey blasters. WHich ARE fun. If I had one bad thing too say about them, it would be that they are TOO good. It is too easy. Now, I play for fun, as I said, so if a build is toooo super awesome and theres less challenge, I am not having as much fun. So in that regard, they dont 'p;ay' as well as say..my blapper. Which I am sure would carry over to a scrapper, if I made say..my dark armour all about s/l defency. I LIKE having to play smart with the mitigation toggles, I like having to use dark regen to get back form 5 hp after an alpha, I like using soul transfer.)
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Unless their goal with those sets was to make them strong in other areas and leave as a challenge covering what wasn't given to those sets.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
My own weird opinion of build resist toons for def is that it is..sort of cheating. Well, maybe cheating is an over strong word, since it is really just building to be the best it can be. But I just dont think that the devs would have made sets without defence, if it was totally impossible to play these sets...
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One of my melee characters has awesome resistances, decent self-healing, decent endurance recovery and struggles to acquire defense while another has great defense, reasonable resistance, reasonable defense, weak healing, and struggles with endurance issues.
So I do not think of it as cheating to acquire defense on a resistance based character but rather taking up the actual challenge of filling the hole that every defensive powerset has.
Under construction
Remember that prior to the new difficulty slider and inventions these were roughly the settings you could choose from:
+0/x0
+0/x2
+1
+1/x2
+2
Soloing, in particular, there wasn't a brute set out there that couldn't handle that - until the high end game, where things like Arachnos, Carnies, and Malta destroyed you (many were the threads about how Invulnerability was the weakest brute armor, aside from energy aura of course).
This is all still true. On SOs, on those difficulty settings, the game is no different now than it's ever been.
Back then if you wanted to tank for a team as a brute you needed support. The idea of running into a x8 group and living was ludicrous unless it was Council and you were Inv or Mu and you were Elec.
I bring this up because that core still exists. That core experience is where the devs balance the game around.
That core is found wanting when you start tweaking the diff settings solo.
Without a team you have to make up for not having a team - and healing doesn't cut it, as nothing you can do could ever replace the efficiency of a /thermal using its single target heal on you every 5 seconds if needed*. That leaves resistance, which is not really self buffable (and again is no match for team resistance buff numbers).
Which finally leaves defense ... which, due to the way attack rolls work and some serious short sightedness on the dev team's part when designing invention sets, magically IS self buffable to the point where it's like you're on a team (the buff numbers don't match up, of course, but they don't need to because of the soft cap)
Without defense you still will be competitive in today's game as long as you respect the limits of what the armor sets are designed to take solo. And solo is the only place you'll notice those limits provided you get on a team with any support at all. I have a /regen scrapper with little defense and he does fine on teams and trials as long as he doesn't do something stupid like run off and try and solo crates in Lambda. That's a job for someone who does build for defense. It is 'Not Intended Behavior'. It is also stupidly slow: sticking with the team and protecting the DPS would wipe out said crate in a third the time.
Edit 1: I have a point, but I can't recall what it is through my fever
Edit 2: Ah ha!
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
So what defence should a /regen Brute aim for at level 50 and for the high end game?
Defence makes the monsters hit you less, resistance makes the hits smaller, is that correct?
Is it possible to have enough recharge at some point to make Moment of Glory permanent?
Thanks.
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The two commonly talked about breakpoints for Defense are soft cap, at 45%, and being a purple inspiration away at 32.5%. Failing that, as much as you can get without ruining your character's performance.|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
So what defence should a /regen Brute aim for at level 50 and for the high end game?
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| Defence makes the monsters hit you less, resistance makes the hits smaller, is that correct? |
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| Is it possible to have enough recharge at some point to make Moment of Glory permanent? |
Under construction
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I'll be interested in what others thoughts are as well, but here's mine. I generally would not build to the Incarnate defense cap. On most builds my thoughts would tend to think about what how much I need to hit the cap (either the soft cap of 45% or the Incarnate cap of 59%) while using either a medium purple (+25%) or a small purple (12.5%) inspiration and then see what the individual build can manage while still meeting the other build goals. And on most I really only worry about 'how much' I want in relation to the soft cap on the 1st or primary build more or less thinking league/teammate buffs will take care of the additional 14% needed for the Incarnate defense cap.|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
So what defence should a /regen Brute aim for at level 50 and for the high end game?
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Edit: Assuming of course the build isn't able to actually manage to get to those respective caps. And I'll also try to build in some +defense buff against defense debuff when it can be managed while still obtaining the overall build goals.
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| Defence makes the monsters hit you less, resistance makes the hits smaller, is that correct? |
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| Is it possible to have enough recharge at some point to make Moment of Glory permanent? |
Handy link: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
Doomguide
Edit2: I am in total agreement with this:
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| Without defense you still will be competitive in today's game as long as you respect the limits of what the armor sets are designed to take solo. And solo is the only place you'll notice those limits provided you get on a team with any support at all. I have a /regen scrapper with little defense and he does fine on teams and trials as long as he doesn't do something stupid like run off and try and solo crates in Lambda. That's a job for someone who does build for defense. It is 'Not Intended Behavior'. It is also stupidly slow: sticking with the team and protecting the DPS would wipe out said crate in a third the time. |
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Thanks for the quick reply. So basically MoG at 60s is what you should aim for, and then worry about other stuff like defence and resistance if going for /regen?|
Originally Posted by Erratic
A power can be made permanent if its recharges is equal or less than four times its duration. As Moment of Glory has a duration of 15 seconds and a recharge of 240 seconds, it can not be made permanent.
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Originally Posted by Charlotta Fireheart
Any time I'm curious about this I take the base recharge time and divide by 5. If that number is less than the base duration then yes in theory it can be made permanent. For MoG that's 240/5 = 48. 48 is considerably larger than MoG's duration of 15 seconds so no MoG will never become perma no matter how much recharge you manage regardless of the recharge source or other factors. 5 comes from the recharge cap of +400% (or 500% total) which will reduce the recharge to 1/5th base.
Handy link: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits Doomguide |
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You will NEVER reach the recharge cap solo. Also, the more recharge you have, the less benefit you get from adding more. To get even close to that, you'd be slotting for so much recharge that you'd gimp your build by neglecting more important things.
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Originally Posted by RogerWilco
Thanks for the quick reply. So basically MoG at 60s is what you should aim for, and then worry about other stuff like defence and resistance if going for /regen?
Edit: Thanks for the link. So the limit on MoG is actually 48.5 seconds. That is the most defining power of /regen, right? Someone described /regen to me as getting MoG up as much as possible, and using your other stuff to survive in between. Or are there other strategies for /regen that focus less on +Recharge? |
@Roderick
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No the utter limit on recharge will be 1/5th of 240seconds or 240/5 = 48seconds|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
Thanks for the quick reply. So basically MoG at 60s is what you should aim for, and then worry about other stuff like defence and resistance if going for /regen?
Edit: Thanks for the link. So the limit on MoG is actually 48.5 seconds. That is the most defining power of /regen, right? Someone described /regen to me as getting MoG up as much as possible, and using your other stuff to survive in between. Or are there other strategies for /regen that focus less on +Recharge? |
New Recharge = Original Recharge (1 + Recharge Buffs)
15 = 240 (1 + N) >>> 15 being the desired recharge time you need for perma status and N being the recharge you need to gain the time desired
15 + 15N = 240
15N = 240 - 15 = 225
N = 225/15 = 15
15 expressed as a percent means you would need a recharge of 1500% to gain perma MoG or well beyond the cap of 500% (or +400%)
And please any math experts correct me if I screwed that up (as I hardly qualify ... I know just enough to be dangerous
).Doomguuide
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Not an inaccurate if rough description. Generally /Regen survives by its clicks not only MoG but Recon, Dull Pain, and IH and hence build for recharge to get those clicks back up and available ASAP. The less you wish to survive by clicks the more you'll need defense (since resistance is near impossible to come by) and why most high end builds tend to add defense after recharge. And again how much defense really depends on how much you wish to push the envelope and how much you are willing to survive on outside buffs| ... Someone described /regen to me as getting MoG up as much as possible, and using your other stuff to survive in between. Or are there other strategies for /regen that focus less on +Recharge? ... |
On my Broadsword/Regen scrappers most recent build my goal was 32ish% S/L without Parry, while getting the recharge for the attack chain (Hack/Disembowel/Hack/GD etc.), perma Dull Pain, 600% or so passive regen (i.e. without IH running). I'd offer more details but the build is getting dated (primarily by Incarnate choices) and I'm currently without Mids (which truly sucks
).Doomguide
To the OP: My Claws/Regen Scrapper does quite well having nearly no defense and some extra recharge as long as I'm on top of my game (which includes abusing the KB/KD from Claws). I'd rather have built her for considerably more defense, though, so she could do as well or better even when I'm NOT on top of my game as much, but when I made that build I wasn't so good at it and I don't play her enough nor is she so bad as is to bother with respec-ing...
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DP is usually perma and not always used as a heal and Reconstruction is usually better to top you off between fights than it is at saving you when things are going south fast in a fight. MoG and IH are your real "godmodes". Later you can also throw Barrier in that arsenal for even more comprehensive god-modeness during its seconds of glory, and scrappers/stalkers get lucky and can add Shadowmeld as another option, too (which on top of all the rest means pretty much almost always - or always with enough recharge - having a godmode option on hand). Brutes get Gloom and DN, though, so I guess it balances out well...
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Originally Posted by Charlotta Fireheart
Generally /Regen survives by its clicks not only MoG but Recon, Dull Pain, and IH and hence build for recharge to get those clicks back up and available ASAP
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Playing CoH with Gestures
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I'm not level 50 yet, but I've been playing with Mid's to get an idea which Sets I should start looking for. Getting perma Dull Pain and ~600% regen is relatively easy, even without incarnates or any purples. Should I focus on defence beyond that? I've made a build that focusses on +recharge and it gets perma-Dull Pain without Hasten, but it's defence and resistances are quite low (~ 10%). The Recharge get to crazy levels if I include Hasten or start to look at puples or incarnate stuff.|
Originally Posted by Charlotta Fireheart
Not an inaccurate if rough description. Generally /Regen survives by its clicks not only MoG but Recon, Dull Pain, and IH and hence build for recharge to get those clicks back up and available ASAP. The less you wish to survive by clicks the more you'll need defense (since resistance is near impossible to come by) and why most high end builds tend to add defense after recharge. And again how much defense really depends on how much you wish to push the envelope and how much you are willing to survive on outside buffs
On my Broadsword/Regen scrappers most recent build my goal was 32ish% S/L without Parry, while getting the recharge for the attack chain (Hack/Disembowel/Hack/GD etc.), perma Dull Pain, 600% or so passive regen (i.e. without IH running). I'd offer more details but the build is getting dated (primarily by Incarnate choices) and I'm currently without Mids (which truly sucks ).Doomguide |
Mechanically I'd prefer resistance over defense, as smaller hits are more manageable than fewer big hits. At least my experience in other MMOs is that I prefer armor/mitigation over evasion. But I understand that getting resistance is hard and less effective than Defence?
I have my Scrapper build on mids I will share it after work and you can see what I did, it's claws/regen.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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Resistance (by itself) has two major issues for me. First it's basically impossible to add much via IO bonuses. One is also rather limited in pool and epic choices for adding more, particularly outside of S/L resists. Second and perhaps even more significantly, it assumes one gets hit and that means not only damage but whatever debuffs/mez come along with it usually. With defense I not only don't get hurt I don't end up with the debuff/mez effects either. Those debuffs and mez can rapidly ruin ones day. As I understand it the debuff effects in this game, compared to other MMO's, are generally much more effective/devestating. Having those miss can be as important, if not more so, than the damage inflicted.| Mechanically I'd prefer resistance over defense, as smaller hits are more manageable than fewer big hits. At least my experience in other MMOs is that I prefer armor/mitigation over evasion. But I understand that getting resistance is hard and less effective than Defence? |
That said on a /Regen I want both (heck on any build I "want" both) for any min/max, best build thinking. I want anything that'll reduce the level of incoming damage as that will play to my greatest strength i.e. my ability to regen and heal health. But I would seek defense over resistance. Imagine what would (will) happen even at your resistance caps if you got hit by some strong debuffs (large -regen, -recharge and or -resist)
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| DP is usually perma and not always used as a heal and Reconstruction is usually better to top you off between fights than it is at saving you when things are going south fast in a fight. MoG and IH are your real "godmodes". Later you can also throw Barrier in that arsenal for even more comprehensive god-modeness during its seconds of glory, and scrappers/stalkers get lucky and can add Shadowmeld as another option, too (which on top of all the rest means pretty much almost always - or always with enough recharge - having a godmode option on hand). Brutes get Gloom and DN, though, so I guess it balances out well... |
Doomguide
Here is my scrapper build, granted not all of it will translate, but it will give you some ideas. With accolades and DP running my HP are capped, and I can cap regen if I want to use IH and Rebirth at the same time...(extremely sticky situations may call for it but not many...)
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Maxxxx: Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(13), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(45)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Numna-Heal:50(3), Heal-I:50(3), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(5)
Level 2: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(9), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(48)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-End%:50(13), EndMod-I:50(50)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(7)
Level 8: Super Speed -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(15), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(17), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(17), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(19)
Level 12: Slash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(21)
Level 14: Spin -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(15), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), Oblit-%Dam:50(46)
Level 16: Follow Up -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(29), T'Death-Dam%:40(31)
Level 18: Integration -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(29), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(31), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31)
Level 20: Boxing -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A)
Level 22: Resilience -- Aegis-ResDam:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(33), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(33), GA-3defTpProc:50(34), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(34)
Level 24: Focus -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Apoc-Dam%:50(25), Apoc-Dmg:50(34), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(36)
Level 26: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(36), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(37), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(50)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal:50(37), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(37), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(39)
Level 30: Eviscerate -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-%Dam:50(33), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Posi-Dam%:50(43), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(43), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(43)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(45), RechRdx-I:50(45)
Level 41: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 44: Moonbeam -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A)
Level 47: Shadow Meld -- LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(48), RechRdx-I:50(48)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Void Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Spectral Radial Flawless Interface
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Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(5)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-End%:50(7)
Level 1: Brawl -- Dmg-I:50(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Code:
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Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
... so the defense cap is neat, and when you actually manage to hit it, after all your careful planning, etc., there's definitely a feeling of satisfaction. Also, the 42% defense is nice to have.
All that said, I'm now curious if it's possible to have an effective, contributing character without it.
Once upon a time back when defense was effectively useless against bosses, elite bosses, and AVs, this was pretty easy. You basically tried to max out your primary defense -- regen for regen sets (well, for regen) and resists for armor sets. These days though it seems your primary defense set is actually your secondary defense set, and your primary defense set is essentially trying to reach the defense cap for at least S/L.
So... what would happen in today's game if you didn't?
I was thinking of making a /regen brute and focusing on bumping up his recharge rate to ridiculously high levels, to see how that plays in the high end game. Has anyone tried this? I haven't seen any posts about it but I may not know where to look.
Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts were on this.
Scrapper Jack (SJ/WP Brute), Sky Commando (WP/SJ Tanker), Curveball (Rad/DP Defender), and a bunch more.