Quote:
Players tend to overlook the fact that Kinetics is not only the most effective damage buffing set, it's also the most effective damage debuffing set. Siphon Power is a critical part of that equation. While it may not be as impressive as Fulcrum Shift, it debuffs damage just as much. So I wouldn't worry that much about being 'dependent' on Siphon Power.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
I am specifically looking for getting more recharge; I am not very happy with the dependence on siphon power that this toon has. My end is fine (I leveled him to 50 this weekend and transference seems to take care of most end issues - plus having a few blues takes care of the rest).
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Quote:
| This is my first kin ever really, so of course any other suggestions would be awesome too! |
Siphon Speed. Ultimately, this power isn't worth it. The activation time ends up losing you more than you get back from it and a single target slow isn't a particularly worthwhile soft control.
Speed Boost. It doesn't make much sense to add a slot to Speed Boost in a level 50 build since the only players who really have end problems at that point will be melee and you can insta-restore their entire endurance bar with Transference.
Weave. HOs grant you +66.6% end discount and +40% defense. Slotting two more LotG (Def and Def/End) would give you ~50% defense, 33.3% end and more HP/Regen from the set bonuses.
Inertial Reduction. Adding two slots here would grant you 1.25% Ranged, 1.875% AoE, 0.625% En/Neg, 0.938% Fire/Cold Defense. None of these numbers are particularly impressive until you realize that you only spent two slots on them. Spending 5 slots on those Thunderstrikes gleaned you 0.75% Ranged per slot, while a full set of BotZ grants you 1.5625 positionals per slot.
Transference. You can get the same basic stats by using either Efficacy Adaptor or Performance Shift and get the set bonuses as well (although you probably want to 4-slot since recharge is important as well).
Tactics. A major reason people take this in the first place is that you can 6-slot Gaussian's for massive defensive bonuses (the build-up proc isn't particularly worthwhile since you can hard-cap your +damage).
Super Speed. The norm would be to slot this for stealth so you get complete invisible. At least slot something for Celerity/Unbounded Leap stealth (Sprint is a common choice for players who can't afford the slot).
Boxing/Flurry/Brawl. First of all, get rid of Flurry. You're not just throwing away 3 slots unnecessarily - you're throwing away an entire power pick as well. Second of all, don't slot any of these powers at all. The set bonuses may be tempting, but they're simply not worth the slots you're committing to them given that you'll never use any of these powers. The defense soft-cap is a limit, not a goal. Your actual goal is being tough enough to survive a hit or two that penetrates your defenses - if you can't do that, you'll just be dying a lot to bad luck. Once you can do that, you can simply eat an inspiration if you get in trouble.
Dark Mastery. I suspect you want the self-rez. However, not only isn't it very useful (it requires you be in the thick of things and you shouldn't be dying in the first place; it can also be replaced by VIP powers) but it shackles you with an otherwise weak epic set. You don't need additional end recovery and Dark Embrace has some of the weaker supplemental resists (Toxic, Negative).
Electricity and Psionic mastery would both be better choices. They have better armors (Energy and Psionic damage are much more common than Negative/Toxic) and they have powers that allow you 'purple diversity'. The various purple sets give such massive bonuses that it makes sense to slot multiple powers with purples (about the only really weak purple set is the one you happen to have slotted - Apocalypse). By adding Immobilize/Hold/etc. to your build, you can slot more purples and pile on huge bonuses to recharge.
Lots of good advice from Bearegard in my opinion, but I do disagree with a few of the opinions, so I'll touch on those to provide another point of view.
Siphon Speed: I think this power is worth it because of three reasons. First, being able to leisurely maintain a 40% recharge boost helps to compensate for lower recharge elsewhere in the build. Second, the speed boost doesn't suppress and allows for much quicker and easier movement. Third, the debuff is one of the few powers marked as irresistable in the game and thus is very useful against even AVs, Warwolves, and BAF escapees.
Transference: Agreed, but recharge isn't all that important, especially with Siphon Speed. It's only a 30s base rech and global recharge is enough to get it down below 15s. If end is so much a problem that a full end recharge every 15s doesn't cut it, it's time to rethink the build 
So I wouldn't slot for recharge. Just Acc/End works.
Inertial reduction: I'd consider scrapping it altogether. And the same for SS. A kin with high defense and Siphon Speed can do without either the travel power or the stealth (super fast and high defense? Just run or slot sprint with stealth) and save the spots.
Boxing/Flurry/Brawl: I disagree. Everything I know about defense mechanics screams about the importance of the last few percent. I agree that the goal is to survive, but I argue that reaching the soft cap is working toward that goal. Plus, and I think this may be even more important imo, but reaching the actual softcap of 45% should be the goal rather than settling for 40% and barrier. Why? Because there is only one major weakness in my experience with my kin/son. Mezzes. Especially autohit, psi mezzes. Rather than using barrier to accomplish what can be done from within the powersets with IOs, I find it more advantageous to save Destiny for Clarion. With the heal, resists, and softcapped s/l/e/n/r, there won't be much to outright kill you. But an errant mez that shuts down your defenses and heals? Game over.
Dark Mastery: I'm on the fence with this. Soul Transfer is a sexy, sexy beast. But there is no denying that death should be avoided in the first place and perhaps more poignant, the VIP Return to Battle power does do an adequate job of standing in for Soul Transfer. On the build below, I went Psionic Mastery for the psionic res and the better 2nd epic power (better than Electricity and Mu for set bonuses). One thing to note is that the energy resist is lower on Electricity's armor than Mu's armor.
Here's what I run with.
--Ninch667
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...68E73FD388F331
As an aside ... I'd ideally shoot for a bit over 45% since one has no DDR making a cascade defense failure a legitimate concern. Unable to look at the build though so no idea if getting another 7% or so defense is a reasonable goal or not. It can make the difference between getting squashed 1 in 20 attacks or so to getting whacked by cascade failure 1 in 400 times. Essentially the idea is to be able to take the first defense debuffing attack without dropping below 45%.
While I love Electricity Mastery (pool of choice for me atm for reasons that have nothing to due with the armor in the set) I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Dark Mastery or other pool armors. Haven't had the play time to see Dark Astoria and newer iTrials yet but been hearing things about greater diversity in damage types and not the heavy S/L/Energy of the early iTrials.
Lastly wasn't sure how to interpret this ... maybe the internet is making it difficult.
Quote:
It is a "soft" cap not a hard limit or cap ... the hard cap is AT dependent and up around 175% for a defender. So shooting for 45% or even more is certainly a potential goal, see my above thoughts about cascade failure.| The defense soft-cap is a limit, not a goal |
Doomguide
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The 'unresistable' flag doesn't actually do anything. That's why Warwolves still run at nearly full speed when you tag them with Siphon Speed, but everything else in the Council looks like they're swimming through molasses - the -max run speed and a tiny smidgen of the -run speed take effect, everything else is resisted.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Siphon Speed: I think this power is worth it because of three reasons. First, being able to leisurely maintain a 40% recharge boost helps to compensate for lower recharge elsewhere in the build. Second, the speed boost doesn't suppress and allows for much quicker and easier movement. Third, the debuff is one of the few powers marked as irresistable in the game and thus is very useful against even AVs, Warwolves, and BAF escapees.
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It's the same with AV (although much harder to test quickly for yourself). They fully resist both the -recharge and the -run speed with their AV resists.
In terms of the extra recharge, it's certainly useful. However, it comes at the cost of using up (scarce) activation time. At lower levels, this is a great tradeoff. But once you've piled on perma-Hasten levels of recharge from other powers you've got so much to do that spending 2 secs to get an extra 20% recharge isn't really all that great of a tradeoff.
The movement portion is meaningless with Inertial Reduction, which can allow you to move at unsuppressable hard cap speeds. Even a little hop while you're running along hurls you forward as fast as you'd ever want to go.
Certainly, I'd want Siphon Speed as I leveled up. But in a level 50 IO build, I don't find it of much use.
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| But an errant mez that shuts down your defenses and heals? Game over. |
For survival, the priority really goes:
1. Play smart. Don't try to Brawl a full spawn of Knives of Vengeance on your Defender.
2. Be able to survive the most dangerous attack. If you can survive a single hit, you can heal/buff/flee/whatever. If you can't survive the hit, you're just going to randomly die from time to time. In the Tanker realm, this might be termed the "Lord Recluse effect". But it still holds true for non-Tankers.
3. Control the situation. Debuff/stun/hold/whatever your opponents so they can't hit you.
4. Reduce the total amount of damage you'll be taking so you're not constantly needing heals/Clear Minds/etc.
Defense falls under #4 there. It's still worth some attention, but the relentless refrain of "must soft-cap defense" idea is probably the single biggest cause of bad builds I've seen. Defense is good. But in any iTrial you'll see a few folks who took it to the extremes the OP did - wasting powers and slots on dribbles of extra defense - and who end up constantly dying because they paid no attention to the more important #1 - #3 elements.
Unless you're making a pure farm 'toon, what your defense looks like in Mid's isn't remotely what it will look like in play. The diversity of enemies means that you'll frequently be relegated to 'weak' defenses that aren't soft-capped. The diversity of teammates means that you'll often end up far over the cap even if you weren't soft-capped to start.
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| Transference: Agreed, but recharge isn't all that important, especially with Siphon Speed. It's only a 30s base rech and global recharge is enough to get it down below 15s. If end is so much a problem that a full end recharge every 15s doesn't cut it, it's time to rethink the build So I wouldn't slot for recharge. Just Acc/End works. |
However, the real issue is that Transference can be slotted with IO sets and he's dedicated enough slots to it that he would be getting IO set bonuses if he used IO sets. Just because they aren't necessarily the 'perfect' bonuses doesn't mean that they're not essentially a free benefit for the character.
And in this particular case, they're actually a solid benefit. Both level 50 end mod sets come with +hit points and +recovery in the first four slots. One of them will improve his character while delivering almost identical performance for the actual power compared to his current slotting.
A couple of friendly responses to Beauregard:
Siphon Speed: I dunno, Beauregard. Everything I've looked up and experienced personally says the opposite of what you are saying. Redtomax lists all of the effects (62.5% run slow, 62.5% jump slow, and -20% rech debuff) as unresistable. MIDS does the same. Ironically, the only debuff that isn't listed as unresistable is the -3.5 max run slow. With respect to my in-game experience and in stark contrast to what you say, Warwolves DON'T run at full speed when tagged with Siphon Speed, AVs ARE slowed as well, and BAF escapee Lts ARE slowed to a crawl. Tar patch, snow storm, infrigidate. None of them have been able to meaningfully slow these enemies. But I swear, I've done it myself. I even got myself yelled at by a BAF league for jumping ahead at the "pull siege" phase and tagging him with two quick Siphon Speeds, slowing him to a relative crawl. I dunno what to say, I've seen it work this way and Mids/Redtomax agree.
The Softcap Argument: Normally, I'd agree with you. Too many "set bonus" slots and powers can be murder on a build. But in this case, it's very possible to softcap without sacrificing too many slots or picking otherwise useless powers. Also, your survival list, while I agree completely, does imply a few logical errors. First, playing smart is always a prerequisite to survival, so I think it's fair to take it off the table when comparing builds. There's little point to comparing builds if we also have to take into account player futility, so let's assume a good player is playing. That means no using brawl (it's just slotted for the set bonuses, it's not meant to be used). As an aside, I play with Steel occasionally anyway, and he's a smart player in every sense of the word. Second, eeking out every last % of defense without sacrificing powers or powerslotting too much works toward accomplishing your #2 and #4. The closer you are to the softcap, the more likely you are to surviving that first attack or alpha. Normally, it's a balancing act. More defense at the expense of costly build sacrifices? Or less defense, but more efficient power picks and slotting? Here, with tons of inf (which I know Steel has), it's very possible to have your cake and eat it too. I agree with #3 completely and to that effect, picked up mass hypnosis and siren's song on my kin/son to stack the sleeps (works well with FS which doesn't awake them) and for the good set bonuses.
With respect to your "reality of teaming" point, with softcapped s/l/e/n/r, there's really not many attacks that don't fall under that. Incinerate, fire breath, and a few others, but that's a pretty broad coverage. And the fact that teams often make building for personal defense unnecessary is irrelevant. For those teams that don't, you're ready for survival on your own. And for those teams that do, you're still good to go. It doesn't make any difference whether you are teaming or not. With that logic, a blaster could forgo building for ranged defense, despite the obvious good that would provide, because "hey, the rest of the league will help me there."
Another thing is that your personal experience in witnessing players screw up because they have poor builds that sacrificed too much for every % of defense does NOT mean that it is impossible for a build to eek out defense in a good way. Bad, inefficient builds are just that. However, it's very possible to aim for eeking out defense on a kin/son without sacrificing the build.
With respect to Transference, I guess I have to chalk this up to playstyle difference because in my experience, having a single-target end drain with no capabilities to keep a mob's end from immediately beginning to recover is of very limited use to me. It always seems like a mob just needs a sliver of end to get off powerful attacks. That's why Elec control works so well at sapping. It drains end on a large AoE scale and keeps it from recovering. Transference does neither of that and so I find it far more useful as an end recovery tool rather than a sapping tool (which means less recharge is required). Furthermore, the endurance modification set bonuses don't offer much for a kin/son. More recovery and a tiny bit of HP on a low HP kin/son? Pass. But, YMMV. *shrug*
Quote:
MIDs gets its data from redtomax, which gets its data from the game client. They're not independent data points.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Siphon Speed: I dunno, Beauregard. Everything I've looked up and experienced personally says the opposite of what you are saying. Redtomax lists all of the effects (62.5% run slow, 62.5% jump slow, and -20% rech debuff) as unresistable. MIDS does the same. Ironically, the only debuff that isn't listed as unresistable is the -3.5 max run slow. With respect to my in-game experience and in stark contrast to what you say, Warwolves DON'T run at full speed when tagged with Siphon Speed, AVs ARE slowed as well, and BAF escapee Lts ARE slowed to a crawl. Tar patch, snow storm, infrigidate. None of them have been able to meaningfully slow these enemies. But I swear, I've done it myself. I even got myself yelled at by a BAF league for jumping ahead at the "pull siege" phase and tagging him with two quick Siphon Speeds, slowing him to a relative crawl. I dunno what to say, I've seen it work this way and Mids/Redtomax agree.
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Nor does it change the fact that the 'unresistable' flag doesn't do anything for Siphon Speed. In fact, before I wrote my reply I specifically tested it in case it had changed. I fired up a level 50 council mission, used Siphon Speed (fully slow slotted) on both a vampire and werewolf. The result? Extremely slow-moving vampire. Near-full speed werewolf. The difference is obvious.
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| Second, eeking out every last % of defense without sacrificing powers or powerslotting too much works toward accomplishing your #2 and #4. The closer you are to the softcap, the more likely you are to surviving that first attack or alpha. |
However, I was trying to be complete rather than giving specific alternatives. For a specific alternative, consider that he spent 3 slots on Kinetic that could have gone to Gaussian's: 3.75% S/L + 1.875% Melee vs. 2.5% all positionals + 1.25% S/L/E/N/F/C. That's just a bad tradeoff.
Fair enough, Beauregard. If I'm understanding you correctly this time, you are essentially championing resists and +hp as just as important as eeking out the last few defense % and to that, I totally agree. Fortunately, it's possible to soft-cap defenses without sacrificing resists and other variables too much, but I still very much agree with you here.
Using your KC vs. Gaussian's example, there is more to the tradeoff than that. Spending the 3 slots of KC leaves Tactics with 2 slots, perfect for two rectified reticles adding 1.88 s/l def of their own. Add that to the 3.75 def from the KCs and you have 5.63 defense to s/l. By using the slots for full Gaussian's, you get the 2.5% all positionals + 1.25% S/L/E/N/F/C. It's far from an obvious decision then. 5.63% s/l (possibly taking you from 40% s/l to 45% s/l, which is huge [see Dechs soft-cap analysis]) or the Gaussian set bonuses? My preference would be for the s/l especially since the Gaussian defense would be largely meaningless for my already low melee, AoE, F, and C defenses. At the very least, it's far from a "bad tradeoff."
With respect to the unresistable part of Siphon Speed, consider me surprised. I'll have to try it in-game later tonight to try it out for myself. It's not that I think you're lying. I'm just surprised that a power I've used so often and understood so well is not currently behaving as I remember it. But, I've been wrong before many times, so this could very well be another time I'm wrong. I'll check tonight. FWIW, thanks for the info.
Just logged on to check on Siphon Speed as I said I would. In-game it says unresistable, but I thought I'd try it out and see. I'm right. Siphon Speed IS unresistable. Here's three screenshots I just took of a Warwolf Lt and against Diabolique as an Elite Boss. As you can see, the Warwolf has 100% recharge resistance and Diabolique has 84%. Yet, each casting of Siphon Speed lowers their recharge by 22% (not 20% because I'm level shifted). And while the Combat Attributes window lacks any display of slow resistance, it DOES show movement speed, and as I expected, both enemies were significantly slowed by each casting. With two casts of Siphon Speed, both were slowed to a crawl.
So, to tie this back to the OP, take Siphon Speed for its unique unresistable quality, not to mention the easy recharge and movement boosts.
Little_Whorn: Beauregard is long since on my ignore list but you appear to be having an argument with him.
Yes, siphon speed is a nice ability. You don't need to feel you are atypical in enjoying it. Just appreciate it and move on.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
Quote:
Alright, point taken. I'm still relatively new to contributing to these boards, so I still take most people here seriously. Hence, the effort |
Originally Posted by _Ail_
Little_Whorn: Beauregard is long since on my ignore list but you appear to be having an argument with him.
Yes, siphon speed is a nice ability. You don't need to feel you are atypical in enjoying it. Just appreciate it and move on. |
But I get it. Moving on. Nothing to see here >.>
I always have to jump in on Kin/Sonic topics, since I'm a big fan of the combo.
* Value-wise, Panacea over Doctored Wounds is a bad deal. It provides 2.5% more recharge for about 2-4B more inf. Here is recharge for 3 powers with long-ish recharges: Hasten (132 sec), FS (17.6), Soul Transfer (129.5 s). Those same 3 with DW: 133, 17.73, 130.5. Even if the reponse is "cost is no concern" that's an unimpressive improvement.
* Increase Density is a unique power in this game. In addition to de-mezzing (except sleeps), it give s/e (notice that's an "e", not an "l") resists and the cherry on top is repel and kb protection. No you don't want to be spamming it (though I do for the first mission of the Katie Hannon tf where it's perfect) but it's useful. I'd rather have it than IR.
* I like Siphon Power and advocate its inclusion, but the 2 recharges can be omitted. Taking them out takes it from 5.91 to 7.84 seconds. Trust me, with Kin/Sonic you've got plenty of other things to do during those 1.9 seconds you've lost. Things that are doubtlessly more productive than spamming SP as soon as it's up.
* I agree with a prior suggestion that the end mod in SB can be taken out.
* These slots can be redistributed to Tactics so you can 6-slot Gauss and improve defenses across the board, even if s/l took a trivial (.6%) hit.
* Transference. I'd use 3 of either of the 2 level 50 sets for end mod. Your current slotting gives 42% acc and 84% end mod. From a set use an End Mod, a triple and an End Mod/Acc to get 47.7% acc, 88% end mod with 21% recharge. I have a slight preference for Perf Shifter but either is fine.
* In CJ I'd go for a 3rd LOTG, Def/End to get an HP bonus (admittedly small) with only a .06% def loss)
* Don't forget a stealth IO in Sprint (or its equivalent) to give you pve invis combined with SS.
I'm not a fan of Dark Consumption for a Kin but there's nothing else to give that e/n def in 3 slots, except the equally irrelevant Soul Drain. I also like Oppressive Gloom but it would take more time to retweak the build than I have.
Just to nit-pick the OP, the res debuffs aren't a +40 damage buff, they're a *40 (without adjustments) damage buff (more precisely * 1.4).
On to other thoughts brought up in thread. Siphon Speed's appeal isn't that it provides a 20% recharge, it's that it can be stacked up to 3 times to frequently provide a 60% recharge buff, and easily a 40% buff. That's well worth the opportunity cost of the activation time.
Here's what it looks like with the modifications suggested above:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Kinetics
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Transfusion
- (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance
- (3) Accuracy IO
- (3) Doctored Wounds - Endurance/Recharge
- (43) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge
- (43) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (43) Doctored Wounds - Heal
- (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
- (15) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
- (27) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (39) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
- (40) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (50) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
- (5) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (5) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
- (13) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (13) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
- (21) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage
- (7) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Recharge
- (7) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (11) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (11) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Superior Defender's Bastion - Recharge/Chance for Minor PBAoE Heal
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (9) Recharge Reduction IO
- (9) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (40) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (50) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)
- (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
- (15) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (31) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (42) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (42) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (17) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure
- (17) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure
- (A) Apocalypse - Damage
- (19) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
- (19) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (33) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (50) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (23) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (25) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure
- (25) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure
- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (27) Performance Shifter - EndMod
- (37) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (34) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (33) Recharge Reduction IO
- (33) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (36) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (36) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (36) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Eradication - Damage
- (39) Eradication - Damage/Recharge
- (39) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (42) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (48) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (48) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Absolute Amazement - Stun
- (45) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge
- (45) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
- (45) Absolute Amazement - Endurance/Stun
- (46) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
------------
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (46) Miracle - +Recovery
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (46) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (21) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (23) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (31) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth
Level 2: Rest
- (A) Empty
Code:
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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
So a few points I wanted to address, now that I've actually been playing this toon for a while
(btw, in the original most, I meant "don't like to be dependent on siphon SPEED for recharge" )
.) The end mod suggestions are good; the removing recharge from Siphon speed also seems like a good idea.
.) This toon literally 'rarely' dies - and once it does, soul transfer is invaluable. I have a balls to the wall approach of playing the kin. I stay within melee to give the maximum benefit of FS and SP, along with replenish my own end as needed
.) Soul transfer is just da bomb, period; Mag 30 stun to enemies around me? If I don't have enemies around me, um, then that's a good time just to use a wakie
.) When team survival is crucial, I tend to stay out of melee anyway - in which case I simply stand safely away and spam FS/Trans. This is a much rarer case though and much less efficient
.) I 'know' the cost of Panacea; but money is not even a slight issue with me. I don't mind paying 2bil more for 1% more recharge if I need to - I am looking to min/max my build (and btw, I always put +stealth in sprint, I usually just leave that out of builds since nowadays it's mostly a given)
If I picked either elec/mu/psi, I would lose my self-rez, which is more valuable to me than any one type of rez.
I'll rework my build based on the feedback from this thread and post a better one. Thanks for all the comments!
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Sorry if this question is inappropriate for this thread/sub-forum but I've been considering a kin/sonic for a good while. I'm looking for opinions on if this would work better on a def or a corr. I've played Kin on both sides so I understand the main differences but honestly haven't played sonic blasts much.
I recall def kin being awesome support but corr kin being so much more destructive. I've never played kin in the iTrial scene so I don't even know how they fare there. Honestly, I really don't even see all that many kind anymore either. I guess what Im really looking for is to be convinced one way or another since I'm so undecisive.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
Quote:
No we need people like you, because it's easy for new people to get influenced by bullshitters. Never stop. Ail, don't be a **** disturber.
|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Alright, point taken. I'm still relatively new to contributing to these boards, so I still take most people here seriously. Hence, the effort
But I get it. Moving on. Nothing to see here >.> |
The discussion about which targets siphon speed actually is irresistible is a valid discussion point. It's been passed around in general that AVs do not resist siphon speed in the proven experience of kinetics users. In a long AV fight that -recharge -speed can be critical.
As Beauregard noted previously, certain "old school" spawns, not under the usual AV resist caveat, do still indeed seem to resist siphon speed. He noted the council/5th warwolves. It's been my experience that these spawns "cheat" as do some of the carnie spawns.
Beauregard was discussing Warwolves. I tend to agree. I think on the old spawns that it's a case by case basis which siphon speed will actually slow. Obviously to me, on a kin/sonic, Screech is the appropriate mitigation for the ravaging bad doggies.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Hey folks, sorry for the late response but I got really involved in my TW/Elec brute's build (which as it turns out, is considerably harder to get done well).
This is the build I settled on and have been using. I'm really happy with this toon; of course, additional suggestions are welcome.
A few important changes were increasing ToHit to make sure that my hit chance if capped at 95% versus +4's (changed the base tohit in mids to confirm). Additionally, I took several suggestions given on the thread regarding slotting various powers like SB, transference, SP/SP, etc.
I really like SP's slowing of enemies and unsupressed run speed increase, so I'm definitely keeping that. Regarding using slot mules, yeah - there isn't much more I want. I tried a build with shockwave on it and other powers too but really didn't end up using them much. Every power that I use 90% of the time is on the build, leaving me a lot of choices for slots and powers.
So here's the new build,
Code:
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I went Def for the simple reason that sonic, really, is fairly lacklustre at damage. It's slow and the damage isn't very much so my purpose of using my attacks is "only" team support; a corr didn't seem to change that much for me.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Sorry if this question is inappropriate for this thread/sub-forum but I've been considering a kin/sonic for a good while. I'm looking for opinions on if this would work better on a def or a corr. I've played Kin on both sides so I understand the main differences but honestly haven't played sonic blasts much.
I recall def kin being awesome support but corr kin being so much more destructive. I've never played kin in the iTrial scene so I don't even know how they fare there. Honestly, I really don't even see all that many kind anymore either. I guess what Im really looking for is to be convinced one way or another since I'm so undecisive. |
Second, as a kin, I really expect to use my attacks less often than all the other things I need to keep doing. Even now, my power tray has Howl and Shout placed first, I rarely get to the third attack power before which I need to hit one of the support powers again.
If I wanted a super-damage/farming kin, then I'd have gone corr, in which case I'd have only done fire/kin.
This is my playstyle though YMMV.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Great build, Steel, but I do question leaving out increase density. Even with no slots added, it carries a hefty 25% base resist buff to Smash/Energy, some of the two most common damages in the incarnate realm. And it could take one of the resist/+def IOs in the native slot, freeing up a slot elsewhere (in your case, tough). It's not a game changer like SB or FS, but certainly a one-slot wonder that is much easier to keep up now with the buff being AoE. Anyway, my 2c.
I'm actually working on a character of the same sets myself and while Slain certainly has an effective build, it's quite far out of my reach and doesn't really follow my build philosophy, ie to use the vast majority of powers I'm slotting. No four slot flurry/boxing/kick for set bonuses for me, just not how I work!
To that end, I've put together a 'budget' build to the best of my ability to see what I could manage. Character's presently up to 17 and counting as I'm able to find teams, but I'd love input if folks have any!
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Kineticrash: Level 50 Science Defender
Primary Power Set: Kinetics
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Transfusion -- Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(A), Nictus-Acc/Heal(9), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(9), Nictus-Heal(15)
Level 1: Shriek -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 2: Scream -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Howl -- DefendersB-Acc/Dmg(A), DefendersB-Dmg/Rchg(7), DefendersB-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), DefendersB-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), DefendersB-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), DefendersB-Rchg/Heal%(17)
Level 8: Siphon Speed -- P'ngTtl-Acc/Slow(A), P'ngTtl-Dmg/Slow(45), P'ngTtl-Acc/EndRdx(46), P'ngTtl-Rng/Slow(46), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(46), P'ngTtl--Rchg%(48)
Level 10: Increase Density -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(11)
Level 12: Speed Boost -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- ULeap-Stlth(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 16: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Inertial Reduction -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(21), Zephyr-ResKB(21)
Level 20: Tough -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(23), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(23)
Level 22: Shout -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(25), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 24: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(29), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFtn-Def(34), RedFtn-EndRdx(34)
Level 26: Transference -- Acc-I(A)
Level 28: Siren's Song -- CSndmn-Acc/Rchg(A), CSndmn-EndRdx/Sleep(31), CSndmn-Acc/EndRdx(31), CSndmn-Sleep/Rng(31), CSndmn-Heal%(33)
Level 30: Amplify -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(39), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(40), GSFC-Build%(40)
Level 32: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 35: Screech -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(36), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(36), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(37), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(37), Stpfy-KB%(37)
Level 38: Shockwave -- ExStrk-Dmg/KB(A), ExStrk-Acc/KB(40), ExStrk-Dam%(42)
Level 41: Dark Consumption -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(42), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(42), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(43), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(45), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Soul Transfer -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Stealth -- EndRdx-I(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Preemptive Total Radial Conversion
Level 50: Longbow Core Superior Ally
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
I know this thread is a month old, but still semi-active and had a kin/sonic question:
Is it a safe assumption that powerboost will not affect anything related to kin/sonic buffs and debuffs.
As awesome as that would be (a few powerboosted sonic attacks, or damage buffs / debuffs of FS and SP), I expect it would be overpowered.
Quote:
That is a correct assumption. It's not completely useless, it would improve the heal or the stun and even your defensive powers (not bonuses) for a short while. Still it doesn't boost the things you're hoping for (+dmg, -dmg, -res).
|
Originally Posted by Droid76a
I know this thread is a month old, but still semi-active and had a kin/sonic question:
Is it a safe assumption that powerboost will not affect anything related to kin/sonic buffs and debuffs. As awesome as that would be (a few powerboosted sonic attacks, or damage buffs / debuffs of FS and SP), I expect it would be overpowered. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Thanks for the confirmation; that's what I expected.
After working off the rust in UG and DD last night... Kin/sonic is powerful enough. I don't think I've ever seen the lichen infested war walker, avatar of Mot, or Diaboloqiue herself melt faster.
Quote:
I used to build for ranged defense, but as a kin that makes very little sense. You and your team is losing a bunch of buffs because of your not being in melee - part of fulcrum shift's damage buff and siphon power's damage buff. Secondly, when you need endurance, transference won't help you.|
Originally Posted by Etharion
I'm actually working on a character of the same sets myself and while Slain certainly has an effective build, it's quite far out of my reach and doesn't really follow my build philosophy, ie to use the vast majority of powers I'm slotting. No four slot flurry/boxing/kick for set bonuses for me, just not how I work!
To that end, I've put together a 'budget' build to the best of my ability to see what I could manage. Character's presently up to 17 and counting as I'm able to find teams, but I'd love input if folks have any! |
Second, 'stealth'? why? :-\
Put in Kismet +6 tohit somewhere in your build.
Stealth IO in CJ? Huh?
One more slot in transfusion and you could use doctored wounds instead with an acc IO, getting 5% more recharge and capped accuracy.
You may not like using slot mules, but all that does is makes your build sub-optimal. I like having strong principles in life, just not about how I build my toons in CoH and other pseudo-mathematical ventures. It's like saying, "I don't use the reciprocal rule, it's just not how I work".
I'd start with just a few build basics and rework the entire build.
.) It's a kin, try to make sure you have Hasten in your build - 70% recharge means FS comes up a lot more - that's your bread and butter power.
.) Build for s/l defense at least, try to get /nrg high also if possible
.) Your attacks barely need any damage IO's - you'll be capped to damage most of the time, your +damage from your IO's will mean a 0 bonus.
.) Stealth is almost completely useless nowadays - just get SS instead with a stealth IO in sprint (optionally you can put the stealth IO in SS too, I just like to put it in sprint to have the control to have super speed but no stealth)
.) Get SS and keep it on. It reduces your threat level to 0%.
.) Get more recovery, transference won't be up all the time and you may not always be in melee when you have to use it.
.) If possible, get tactics, at a minimum use +6 kismet. If you're fighting +4's, attempt to cap your accuracy. You can check this by changing the base to hit chance in mids settings to 39 instead of 75 (Options -> Configuration -> Exemping and base values) - when you miss as a kin? It really hurts. Your kin will miss a lot with +4's
.) Don't take powers that do not directly help you unless they are slot mules. For example, dark consumption is a slot mule on a kin/sonic, don't confuse it with a useful power. Slot it accordingly.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
I've added the ATO's with the latest mids update - so in case the build doesn't look right, you might want to get that update
So this was the goal; to build a heavily team oriented toon that would serve as an awesome force multipler - yet, still be very survivable.
For this, I wanted to,
.) Have a decent recharge so that FS is up a lot
.) Being a kin, his support was already going to be pretty good, but still wanted to add to the support as much as I could without hurting survivability
.) Capped at least s/l/e/n (capped ranged came as a nice bonus) - with the minimum barrier running of 5%
.) Very high s/l resists, if possible high nrg resist also (couldn't manage that one :-\)
.) Definitely needed a powerful self-rez that would allow the toon to get back into combat ASAP in case of a death
The reason I went /sonic over /fire was mostly because of the stacking -res debuff. On a team of 16 players, even if I stack just 2 of the -res debuffs from the attacks, that's +40% damage to folks on the team, even if they're already damage capped. 40%x16 damage seemed much more useful than even 200%x1 damage
Here's the build,
I am specifically looking for getting more recharge; I am not very happy with the dependence on siphon power that this toon has. My end is fine (I leveled him to 50 this weekend and transference seems to take care of most end issues - plus having a few blues takes care of the rest).
This is my first kin ever really, so of course any other suggestions would be awesome too!
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense