Blaster ATO


Android_5Point9

 

Posted

Can I get someone that knows the facts in here to look a this? My problem is in understanding the ATO and the time gate thing.

I understand that the ATO proc will fire everytime in a power that has a base recharge of (is it 12 or 15 seconds, I have seen both posted). This is the base, so even if brought down to 4-7 seconds it will still proc everytime? unless its an AoE in which case it is still good, but no guarantee of anything?

I am looking at slotting it in Bitter Ice Blast which is exactly 12 seconds base, so if the verbage is "over 12 seconds" base, or if it is "15 second base" I have to rethink the concept a bit. Anyways, does anyone know specifically the rule?


 

Posted

It perplexes me as to how exactly these procs work. I'm under the impression that the power's recharge time changes the percent chance to fire. It's unclear if a fast recharge power will proc less or more often.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot View Post
It perplexes me as to how exactly these procs work. I'm under the impression that the power's recharge time changes the percent chance to fire. It's unclear if a fast recharge power will proc less or more often.
Store bought enhancements and ATOs procs use a variable chance to fire - and it's geared towards an average procs/minute.

Looking at the ATO page at the wiki, the blaster proc is made to fire 4 times a minute, so a base 15 second recharge (or slower) power should always proc. The superior is a 5/min average, so 12 seconds or slower.

Note it's off the base rate, so recharge buffs don't affect the proc rate.


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Posted

Also keep in mind that a 15 second base recharge aoe won't fire 100% of the time against every enemy it hits. The formula for aoes isn't known right now, just that the higher a power's target cap is, the less of a chance it has of activating the proc.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
Store bought enhancements and ATOs procs use a variable chance to fire - and it's geared towards an average procs/minute.

Looking at the ATO page at the wiki, the blaster proc is made to fire 4 times a minute, so a base 15 second recharge (or slower) power should always proc. The superior is a 5/min average, so 12 seconds or slower.
So in a single-target attack, the chance to proc is basically the listed PPM * (Base Power Recharge in sec) / (60 sec). The max chance is of course 100%. So a 15s recharge power with a 4 PPM proc works out to (4 * 15 / 60) = 100%. An 8 second power works out to (4 * 8 / 60) = 40% chance.

Edit: The reason you have seen both 12s and 15s for 100% chance of activation is that the superior (purple) versions have a PPM of 5. (5 * 12 / 60 = 100%)

As mentioned, we know that AoEs proc less often, but don't know exactly how much less often. We were told that both the power's target cap and its max radius mattered for reducing the proc rate.

Right now the AoE nature of "gauntlet" in Tanker attacks seems to be trigger this reduction, and testing by other players suggest that single-target Tanker attacks that should get 100% chances are getting 20% chances. Because single-target Tanker attacks can hit up to 5 targets with their taunt (including the main attack target), this suggests a straight division by the target cap. (20% = 100%/5) If this is correct, it means your best average proc rate is one target per AoE activation, and that assumes your recharge-based proc rate is 100% (15s or longer base recharge) and you always saturate your AoE's target cap.

This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly). However, for damage procs, the more targets your attack can hit the more inferior such procs look compared to standard IO damage procs, which have a flat chance to damage every target you hit. Because of this, right now I would recommend against slotting the Blaster ATO proc in an AoE unless you both want the six-slot bonus and want to slot an AoE with the good enhancement the rest of the set gives.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
So in a single-target attack, the chance to proc is basically the listed PPM * (Base Power Recharge in sec) / (60 sec). The max chance is of course 100%. So a 15s recharge power with a 4 PPM proc works out to (4 * 15 / 60) = 100%. An 8 second power works out to (4 * 8 / 60) = 40% chance.

Edit: The reason you have seen both 12s and 15s for 100% chance of activation is that the superior (purple) versions have a PPM of 5. (5 * 12 / 60 = 100%)

As mentioned, we know that AoEs proc less often, but don't know exactly how much less often. We were told that both the power's target cap and its max radius mattered for reducing the proc rate.

Right now the AoE nature of "gauntlet" in Tanker attacks seems to be trigger this reduction, and testing by other players suggest that single-target Tanker attacks that should get 100% chances are getting 20% chances. Because single-target Tanker attacks can hit up to 5 targets with their taunt (including the main attack target), this suggests a straight division by the target cap. (20% = 100%/5) If this is correct, it means your best average proc rate is one target per AoE activation, and that assumes your recharge-based proc rate is 100% (15s or longer base recharge) and you always saturate your AoE's target cap.

This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly). However, for damage procs, the more targets your attack can hit the more inferior such procs look compared to standard IO damage procs, which have a flat chance to damage every target you hit. Because of this, right now I would recommend against slotting the Blaster ATO proc in an AoE unless you both want the six-slot bonus and want to slot an AoE with the good enhancement the rest of the set gives.
This is very bad. Take a look at Electrical Blast, my current project. No ST attack is 12s or 15s base. Bitter Ice Blast, one of the very few Blaster sets with a 12 second recharge, could take the purpled set and get a guarantee proc. Fire/Ice? Ich. But min/max it works. But it does seem the Blaster Procs are horrid in the AoEs. I take this as another sign the Devs hate Blasters. Or, from my limited understanding, they are not allowed to give Blasters more damage. They are also not allowed to give Blasters anything besides Damage. Whereas you can buff any other archtype to Blaster level of damage, and they also get mezzes, holds, defenses, res armors, mez protection, and ATOs that give huge damage buffs (Doms) or fury buffs (Brutes). But Blasters? Rules say they get nothing.


 

Posted

The point of the procs isn't that you *have* to put them into long recharging powers, just that they don't lose effectiveness if you do. The scaling is supposedly balanced so that you are getting 'equalish' benefit no matter what power you put it into. It's very similar to the new 'Assassins' Focus' mechanic that Stalkers are using, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same formula.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkupo View Post
The point of the procs isn't that you *have* to put them into long recharging powers, just that they don't lose effectiveness if you do. The scaling is supposedly balanced so that you are getting 'equalish' benefit no matter what power you put it into. It's very similar to the new 'Assassins' Focus' mechanic that Stalkers are using, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same formula.
I suspect you're correct, but I also suspect that the SBE mechanic came first and was re-used for the Stalker AF mechanics. It's definitely a handy tool for them to have, though I think to be really complete it should include some account for power activation times as well as base recharge times.

Edit: According to this post, it actually does account for cast time.

By the way, I don't think this proc can reasonably be used as evidence that the devs hate Blasters, since Controllers and Corruptors got a PPM damage proc too.


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Posted

Also note it's an average proc rate. It's not hard capped at Xprocs/minute.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I suspect you're correct, but I also suspect that the SBE mechanic came first and was re-used for the Stalker AF mechanics. It's definitely a handy tool for them to have, though I think to be really complete it should include some account for power activation times as well as base recharge times.

By the way, I don't think this proc can reasonably be used as evidence that the devs hate Blasters, since Controllers and Corruptors got a PPM damage proc too.
I still think it needs more work in achieving balance, yes. They seem to get hilariously overpowered if you put them in a toggle, as is the case with the current edition of Performance Shift: Chance for Endurance which I believe Synapse (and whoever works with Synapse) is looking into.

Chicken or Egg, they're still too similar for me to think they aren't probably running the same formula.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkupo View Post
Chicken or Egg, they're still too similar for me to think they aren't probably running the same formula.
Agreed.


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Posted

What bothers me is I am perceiving an unfairness to the designs of the ATOs. I may be incorrect, based on my not understanding the mechanics. Dominators get a global stackable damage buff. Brutes get a Fury generator that translates into a Global stacking damage buff. Blasters get a proc, that is better than normal procs in ST, and worse than normal Procs in AoEs? WTF? Blasters are advertised as Ranged Damage funtime. Yet the Devs make constant decisions giving other Archtypes bonuses to damage in a half dozen ways to equal Blaster damage (while still keeping defenses, armor, mez protection, mezz ability, holds, buffs, etc) and pointedly give Blasters as little as they can without actively depriving Blasters of an ATO at all. I am unsure what the overall game design strategy is with Blasters (or if there is one), but the more I explore Blasting the more I see examples of these atrocious imbalances working against this Archetype.


 

Posted

Hopefully this won't derail the thread too far (there's a thread about it over in the Stalker forums, if anyone wants to discuss that), but the chance to proc Assassin's Focus appears to be set by hand for each power, and isn't simply linear with recharge the way the PPM procs seem to be. Most of the chances seem to be "nice" numbers (multiples of 5%), too, which again kinda implies they're chosen by hand rather than a formula.
For instance, Body Blow has a 75% proc chance and a cycle (recharge + cast) time of just over 6.07 seconds; Smashing Blow has an 8.2 second cycle time, which would lead us to expect a 100% proc chance from the same formula, but it only has 85%. Focused Burst has a 10-second cycle time and a 90% chance. Meanwhile Burst is a 10-target AoE, and guarantees a stack of Focus.

So, back on topic, the ATO proc doesn't have to have a 100% proc chance to be good. The best power to put it in isn't just the one where it will have the highest proc chance - if that were true, we'd all be putting it in nukes. Rather, it's best in a power where it has the chance to go off most often, and a 64% proc chance in Lightning Bolt is not much different over time than an 87% proc chance in Bitter Ice Blast.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly).
Except that the method the Defender, Brute, and Dominator procs use to prevent self-stacking is also preventing the proc from being able to check additional targets beyond the first altogether. So that means putting it in a long-recharge AoE gets you a 20% proc chance per activation, regardless of how many targets you hit, compared to a 100% proc chance for a long-recharge single target attacks.

Short-recharge AoEs only get worse from there.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
Except that the method the Defender, Brute, and Dominator procs use to prevent self-stacking is also preventing the proc from being able to check additional targets beyond the first altogether. So that means putting it in a long-recharge AoE gets you a 20% proc chance per activation, regardless of how many targets you hit, compared to a 100% proc chance for a long-recharge single target attacks.
How has this been determined? How do we know what that mechanism is or how it works?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
How has this been determined? How do we know what that mechanism is or how it works?
See this thread in the Dominator boards for empirical testing to back that up.

The actual mechanics is a working theory I have based on City of Data info for the Brute and Dominator procs, and cross-comparison across various builds in both I22 beta and pre-I22 live, as well as various procs which work in different ways.

I did PM Synapse about it with some unfortunately mistaken info about what I thought was happening, but have since discovered the key that ties it together. I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty too much since it involves attributes that CoD normally hides for those procs due to the particular combination not "making sense".