Blaster ATO
It perplexes me as to how exactly these procs work. I'm under the impression that the power's recharge time changes the percent chance to fire. It's unclear if a fast recharge power will proc less or more often.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
It perplexes me as to how exactly these procs work. I'm under the impression that the power's recharge time changes the percent chance to fire. It's unclear if a fast recharge power will proc less or more often.
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Looking at the ATO page at the wiki, the blaster proc is made to fire 4 times a minute, so a base 15 second recharge (or slower) power should always proc. The superior is a 5/min average, so 12 seconds or slower.
Note it's off the base rate, so recharge buffs don't affect the proc rate.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Also keep in mind that a 15 second base recharge aoe won't fire 100% of the time against every enemy it hits. The formula for aoes isn't known right now, just that the higher a power's target cap is, the less of a chance it has of activating the proc.
Store bought enhancements and ATOs procs use a variable chance to fire - and it's geared towards an average procs/minute.
Looking at the ATO page at the wiki, the blaster proc is made to fire 4 times a minute, so a base 15 second recharge (or slower) power should always proc. The superior is a 5/min average, so 12 seconds or slower. |
Edit: The reason you have seen both 12s and 15s for 100% chance of activation is that the superior (purple) versions have a PPM of 5. (5 * 12 / 60 = 100%)
As mentioned, we know that AoEs proc less often, but don't know exactly how much less often. We were told that both the power's target cap and its max radius mattered for reducing the proc rate.
Right now the AoE nature of "gauntlet" in Tanker attacks seems to be trigger this reduction, and testing by other players suggest that single-target Tanker attacks that should get 100% chances are getting 20% chances. Because single-target Tanker attacks can hit up to 5 targets with their taunt (including the main attack target), this suggests a straight division by the target cap. (20% = 100%/5) If this is correct, it means your best average proc rate is one target per AoE activation, and that assumes your recharge-based proc rate is 100% (15s or longer base recharge) and you always saturate your AoE's target cap.
This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly). However, for damage procs, the more targets your attack can hit the more inferior such procs look compared to standard IO damage procs, which have a flat chance to damage every target you hit. Because of this, right now I would recommend against slotting the Blaster ATO proc in an AoE unless you both want the six-slot bonus and want to slot an AoE with the good enhancement the rest of the set gives.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So in a single-target attack, the chance to proc is basically the listed PPM * (Base Power Recharge in sec) / (60 sec). The max chance is of course 100%. So a 15s recharge power with a 4 PPM proc works out to (4 * 15 / 60) = 100%. An 8 second power works out to (4 * 8 / 60) = 40% chance.
Edit: The reason you have seen both 12s and 15s for 100% chance of activation is that the superior (purple) versions have a PPM of 5. (5 * 12 / 60 = 100%) As mentioned, we know that AoEs proc less often, but don't know exactly how much less often. We were told that both the power's target cap and its max radius mattered for reducing the proc rate. Right now the AoE nature of "gauntlet" in Tanker attacks seems to be trigger this reduction, and testing by other players suggest that single-target Tanker attacks that should get 100% chances are getting 20% chances. Because single-target Tanker attacks can hit up to 5 targets with their taunt (including the main attack target), this suggests a straight division by the target cap. (20% = 100%/5) If this is correct, it means your best average proc rate is one target per AoE activation, and that assumes your recharge-based proc rate is 100% (15s or longer base recharge) and you always saturate your AoE's target cap. This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly). However, for damage procs, the more targets your attack can hit the more inferior such procs look compared to standard IO damage procs, which have a flat chance to damage every target you hit. Because of this, right now I would recommend against slotting the Blaster ATO proc in an AoE unless you both want the six-slot bonus and want to slot an AoE with the good enhancement the rest of the set gives. |
The point of the procs isn't that you *have* to put them into long recharging powers, just that they don't lose effectiveness if you do. The scaling is supposedly balanced so that you are getting 'equalish' benefit no matter what power you put it into. It's very similar to the new 'Assassins' Focus' mechanic that Stalkers are using, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same formula.
The point of the procs isn't that you *have* to put them into long recharging powers, just that they don't lose effectiveness if you do. The scaling is supposedly balanced so that you are getting 'equalish' benefit no matter what power you put it into. It's very similar to the new 'Assassins' Focus' mechanic that Stalkers are using, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same formula.
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Edit: According to this post, it actually does account for cast time.
By the way, I don't think this proc can reasonably be used as evidence that the devs hate Blasters, since Controllers and Corruptors got a PPM damage proc too.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Also note it's an average proc rate. It's not hard capped at Xprocs/minute.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
I suspect you're correct, but I also suspect that the SBE mechanic came first and was re-used for the Stalker AF mechanics. It's definitely a handy tool for them to have, though I think to be really complete it should include some account for power activation times as well as base recharge times.
By the way, I don't think this proc can reasonably be used as evidence that the devs hate Blasters, since Controllers and Corruptors got a PPM damage proc too. |
Chicken or Egg, they're still too similar for me to think they aren't probably running the same formula.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
What bothers me is I am perceiving an unfairness to the designs of the ATOs. I may be incorrect, based on my not understanding the mechanics. Dominators get a global stackable damage buff. Brutes get a Fury generator that translates into a Global stacking damage buff. Blasters get a proc, that is better than normal procs in ST, and worse than normal Procs in AoEs? WTF? Blasters are advertised as Ranged Damage funtime. Yet the Devs make constant decisions giving other Archtypes bonuses to damage in a half dozen ways to equal Blaster damage (while still keeping defenses, armor, mez protection, mezz ability, holds, buffs, etc) and pointedly give Blasters as little as they can without actively depriving Blasters of an ATO at all. I am unsure what the overall game design strategy is with Blasters (or if there is one), but the more I explore Blasting the more I see examples of these atrocious imbalances working against this Archetype.
Hopefully this won't derail the thread too far (there's a thread about it over in the Stalker forums, if anyone wants to discuss that), but the chance to proc Assassin's Focus appears to be set by hand for each power, and isn't simply linear with recharge the way the PPM procs seem to be. Most of the chances seem to be "nice" numbers (multiples of 5%), too, which again kinda implies they're chosen by hand rather than a formula.
For instance, Body Blow has a 75% proc chance and a cycle (recharge + cast) time of just over 6.07 seconds; Smashing Blow has an 8.2 second cycle time, which would lead us to expect a 100% proc chance from the same formula, but it only has 85%. Focused Burst has a 10-second cycle time and a 90% chance. Meanwhile Burst is a 10-target AoE, and guarantees a stack of Focus.
So, back on topic, the ATO proc doesn't have to have a 100% proc chance to be good. The best power to put it in isn't just the one where it will have the highest proc chance - if that were true, we'd all be putting it in nukes. Rather, it's best in a power where it has the chance to go off most often, and a 64% proc chance in Lightning Bolt is not much different over time than an 87% proc chance in Bitter Ice Blast.
This might give reasonable performance for things like the Defender or Brute ATO procs, which give buffs to the user. In such cases, one buff on average per power activation isn't too bad (though remember that such a rate still requires you to hit the target cap regularly).
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Short-recharge AoEs only get worse from there.
Except that the method the Defender, Brute, and Dominator procs use to prevent self-stacking is also preventing the proc from being able to check additional targets beyond the first altogether. So that means putting it in a long-recharge AoE gets you a 20% proc chance per activation, regardless of how many targets you hit, compared to a 100% proc chance for a long-recharge single target attacks.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
How has this been determined? How do we know what that mechanism is or how it works?
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The actual mechanics is a working theory I have based on City of Data info for the Brute and Dominator procs, and cross-comparison across various builds in both I22 beta and pre-I22 live, as well as various procs which work in different ways.
I did PM Synapse about it with some unfortunately mistaken info about what I thought was happening, but have since discovered the key that ties it together. I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty too much since it involves attributes that CoD normally hides for those procs due to the particular combination not "making sense".
Can I get someone that knows the facts in here to look a this? My problem is in understanding the ATO and the time gate thing.
I understand that the ATO proc will fire everytime in a power that has a base recharge of (is it 12 or 15 seconds, I have seen both posted). This is the base, so even if brought down to 4-7 seconds it will still proc everytime? unless its an AoE in which case it is still good, but no guarantee of anything?
I am looking at slotting it in Bitter Ice Blast which is exactly 12 seconds base, so if the verbage is "over 12 seconds" base, or if it is "15 second base" I have to rethink the concept a bit. Anyways, does anyone know specifically the rule?