Need help from Military People
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-02-29 05:20 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Actually, someone said: "Squad members (E4, E3, E2, E1)"|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Anyways...
Someone said that the fireteam would consist of E-1, E-2, E-3, and E-4 (along with the E-5 leader)... How is that the case? Isn't E-1 and E-2 both basic training ranks and would never be put in a live fire situation? so wouldn't the fire team be mad up of E-3s and E-4s and the E-5 being the leader? |
and someone else said: "A 5 man "Fire Team" in the Army Infantry is a group of privates led by (at best) a Corporal or maybe a Sergeant."
Which both say the same thing, that a fire team is made up of privates with a corporal/specialist at the lead, and sometimes a sergeant. (this would be if a given platoon was particularly well experienced or manned.
This is the most the most fundamental command structure of an infantry unit. It's also the least autonomous. The team leader does what the squad leader tells him to do, and tells his soldiers "follow me and do what I do".
I really don't see this relating to your "5 man team" at all. What you are describing is some sort of small highly specialized (judging by presence of a commisioned officer at it lead) team that really doesn't have an analog that I know of in modern military hierarchies. If there is one, it would probably relate to a flight crew of some sort, but that's definitely out of my lane.
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Ok so maybe I'm not getting this right because of terminology or something...|
Originally Posted by Warfarin88
Actually, someone said: "Squad members (E4, E3, E2, E1)"
and someone else said: "A 5 man "Fire Team" in the Army Infantry is a group of privates led by (at best) a Corporal or maybe a Sergeant." Which both say the same thing, that a fire team is made up of privates with a corporal/specialist at the lead, and sometimes a sergeant. (this would be if a given platoon was particularly well experienced or manned. This is the most the most fundamental command structure of an infantry unit. It's also the least autonomous. The team leader does what the squad leader tells him to do, and tells his soldiers "follow me and do what I do". I really don't see this relating to your "5 man team" at all. What you are describing is some sort of small highly specialized (judging by presence of a commisioned officer at it lead) team that really doesn't have an analog that I know of in modern military hierarchies. If there is one, it would probably relate to a flight crew of some sort, but that's definitely out of my lane. |
By Private do you mean PFC (E-3) or Private as in (E-1, E-2, and E-3). From what i'm reading E-1 and E-2 are new recruit/pre-graduation from boot camp and thus would never be put into any combat type thing so I'm assuming that what you mean by Private is PFC (E-3).
Also there seems to be some sort of weird titling of Teams which is probably due to my misunderstanding and wikipedia not being very clear. It does indeed say both that corporal is in charge of a fire team, a Sergeant is a team leader, and a Staff Sergeant is a squad leader... The problem is that a fire team is defined as a small group of say 3-5, and a squad is made up of several fire teams with 13ish people under their command. This results in a confusion as a squad is obviously several fire teams... but a team is then also in charge of several fire teams, but a squad can't be made of several teams from what i can see...
So to clarify this is what I see more or less...
"Fire Team" of 5 people: 3 PFCs (E-3), 1 Corporal (E-4), 1 Sergeant (E-5)
"Squad": 2 "Fire Teams", 1 Staff Sergeant (E-6)
Platoon: 4 "Squads", 1 ensign (O-1), 1 Lieutenant (O-2)
Company: 4 Platoons, 1 Lieutenant Commander
Squadron: 4 Platoons
Regiment: 4 Squadrons
Or something like that... The numbers are a bit too high imo as a regiment would be considered a single ship with ~3,000 people on it... that doesn't seem right.
Maybe I'll change the ranks to be more like...
O-7 General
O-6 Colonel
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel (Captain)
O-4 Major (Commander) / E-9 Sergeant Major
O-3 Captain (Lieutenant Commander) / E-8 Master Sergeant
O-2 First Lieutenant (Lieutenant) / E-7 Sergeant First Class
O-1 Second Lieutenant (Ensign)
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Well, E-2 at least is certainly a post boot-camp rank, at least it was when I was in the Air Force. I left basic as an Airman First Class (E-3), but most folks graduated as Airman (E-2). I assume the Army may be the same, and depending on the length of the tech school, you may go to your first duty station/posting/base as an E-2. I may be mistaken however.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Ok so maybe I'm not getting this right because of terminology or something...
By Private do you mean PFC (E-3) or Private as in (E-1, E-2, and E-3). From what i'm reading E-1 and E-2 are new recruit/pre-graduation from boot camp and thus would never be put into any combat type thing so I'm assuming that what you mean by Private is PFC (E-3). |
Old Gray Soldier-Level 50 MA/SR Scrapper-Virtue
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Let m ask this... Is the rank establish as soon as boot camp starts? If so then Boot Camp last 180 days according to wiki this would mean that a E-1 is boot camp and you achieve E-2 at the end of "normal" boot camp. |
Originally Posted by Old_Gray
Well, E-2 at least is certainly a post boot-camp rank, at least it was when I was in the Air Force. I left basic as an Airman First Class (E-3), but most folks graduated as Airman (E-2). I assume the Army may be the same, and depending on the length of the tech school, you may go to your first duty station/posting/base as an E-2. I may be mistaken however.
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I'm not sure if I'm reading this right
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promo...npromrates.htm
says "12 months active duty, 4 months as an E-2..."
What does this mean? 12 months active duty means from the point of entering boot camp? It's weird cuz if E-1 to E-2 is automatic after 6 months and E-2 to E-3 is more or less automatic if the requirement is 12 months active and 4 months as E-2 does that mean that if you have to b an E-2 six months if you are doing perfect and 4 months if you've messed up in some way?
Also I go back to the Civilian guy that's going to enter into this organization... would he be given a E-1 rank with an acting rank of E-2 or something like that?
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Not necessarily. They might be experienced soldiers who have been demoted, or their promotions have been tangled up and lost in the bureaucracy. OTOH, I started boot camp as E-3, and one woman started as E-4 (she had a college degree, I had high school R.O.T.C. experience.)|
Originally Posted by Durakken
From what i'm reading E-1 and E-2 are new recruit/pre-graduation from boot camp and thus would never be put into any combat type thing...
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Also there seems to be some sort of weird titling of Teams which is probably due to my misunderstanding and wikipedia not being very clear. So to clarify this is what I see more or less... |
The civilian would not have a rank, but would likely be considered a warrant officer or officer for determining his creature comforts. For instanct, he'd get a private room instead of a dorm, a bed instead of a cot, etc. Much like a senior NCO, he could likely lean on his patron officer if conflicts arose. (If the civilian is working directly for the general, then most people will treat his requests as if they came from the general.)
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Ok, would there be any way for him to become an enlisted soldier/officer without going through bootcamp? And what qualifies as a "4 year degree" could he be given an honorary degree? would that count?|
Originally Posted by Sir Neil
The civilian would not have a rank, but would likely be considered a warrant officer or officer for determining his creature comforts. For instanct, he'd get a private room instead of a dorm, a bed instead of a cot, etc. Much like a senior NCO, he could likely lean on his patron officer if conflicts arose. (If the civilian is working directly for the general, then most people will treat his requests as if they came from the general.)
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Where would these "other" guys be pulled from? The team is going to be using high tech equipment, but not mech suits (at least not at first) and won't have access to teleportation at first so they'll like be air lifted to the problem area. They'll be be acting as ground troops more or less and sent in to do battle against localized threats which consist of having to straight out fight aliens, sometimes mech suits... The aliens will be super advanced comparatively so there will likely be need for scavenging...
I don't really know skill sets so much... TV and Movie has pretty much shown that Army is the rugged group, Marines are the sub section that is more stealthy, Air Force are the techies, and the Navy are the guys getting drunk and having parties out in the middle of no where...
My first instinct is that the 3 others would be pulled from the Marines... but then I also think having an Air Force techy-engineer guy might be good to have on the team and Army as far as displayed are more or less grunt types and not highly skills so probably don't want them when you're trying to use high tech proto-type gear that needs to be used super effectively without a dozen or more guys behind you...
btw I'm not trying to be offensive here and i know that these service branches aren't like that at all, but that is more or less projected in pop culture so i am using it to describe what i need and hoping that you guys can provide a more accurate view of what might happen.
So considering the background of the organization is initially army and they need more elite members but also tech people and there is already 2 places taken up..
The Fire team would look something like this
1. CO: O-3 Army Captain (not changing)
2. E-4 Marine Coporal
3. E-3 Marine Lance Corporal
4. E-3 Airman First Class
5. W-1 Army Warrant Officer Civilian guy (not changing)
Does this sound right?
What exactly is this team doing?
I think if you are going to have a tiny joint operations team like this with a company grade officer commanding it, it should be comprised of much more experienced "hand picked" operators.
There is nothing a Marine Private or Airmen can offer that couldn't be drawn from Army personnel rosters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_Army_careers
If the members of this team weren't particularly valuable battlefield assets due to exceptional experience, they wouldn't have an officer (or even a higher ranking NCO) directly leading them. If they had this exceptional experience, they would have earned multiple promotions already.
The last time a company grade officer found himself directly leading 3 privates was probably in WWII, when all the airborne sticks were scattered all over Europe and troopers were crawling down hedge rows in the middle of the night scrambling to reassemble their units.
EDIT:
Hollywood examples that come to mind: Tom Hanks picking his crew for a specialized mission straight from the top in "Saving Private Ryan" (lower ranks involved, but all from the same unit, exception going to the highly specialized linguist -- and even then it was noted that the scenario could be perceived as a "demotion" for Tom Hanks' character), and the team members of the "whatever" team that worked with Optimus in "Transformers" (Joint force team composed of high ranking individuals from different services). Both of these examples are not outside a reasonable suspension of disbelief, given the fanciful nature of their story lines.
The Captain is there mainly out of experience and requested by the General. The reason for her "leading" that team directly due to trying to pick people for the team that is experienced, skilled, and quickly getting people together.
This is not a future story. This is present day (or back a little bit... I haven't decided if I'm going to move up the date).
The basic set up for this group is...
Interstellar Empire A discovers a secret about Earth and decides to invade resulting in a Independence Day type blowing up important cities type event (though only over 1 or 2 cities)
Interstellar Empire B has protects earth via elite warriors curtailing the initial invasion before it gets too far.
As to why both sides aren't full scale... Earth is in the IE-B's borders and they have hid their presence from Earth for a long time, letting Earth grow on it's own. They have a non-interference policy when it comes to Earth which keeps IE-B sending in people, but a few elites go against it and go to save Earth regardless. IE-A doesn't want to start a full blown war with IE-B, at least not until it finds the secret on Earth, and because Earth lies inside IE-B's territory IE-A has no choice but to act as stealthily as possible and really only take actions in Earth's territory.
Yes I realize how stupid that sounds, but it is actually realistic...which is strange but whatever...
During the first attack by IE-A "the civilian" is in one of the cities that are attacked as are the general and the Captain. Events happen. mech troops from IE-A are taken down, but leave damaged units behind as they would. "the civilian" ends up saving the general and the captain. These events and the pieces found lead to the general pushing for the creation of a new military branch using back engineered alien technology that is recovered. The general brings on board "the civilian" and captain making them the first 3 official members of the branch...
America becomes a bit Xenophobic from the attacks, several more "incursions" occur, being stopped be IE-B's forces. Eventually the new military branch gets up and ready and goes to stop an incursion. IE-B's forces are pleased at how effective the Earth military is and they decide to introduce themselves. The revelation that IE-B surrounds Earth is taken as a threat to the higher ups (but hidden to the rest of the world) and orders are to treat all alien forces as enemies.
So... this team's job becomes more or less to stop incursions and acquire technology and information. These incursions come in the form of all out attacks to having hidden bases of operations.
In the end... and though this will sound funny, think of it as somewhat of a cross between Power Rangers and Stargate SG-1, but with less anthropology and archeology.
That all happens more or less within the first year or so... As time goes on The military branch becomes the military of a semi-global government that defends earth from the false threat of IE-B and a second semi-global government that is far more advanced.
Does that answer your question as to what they'll be doing?
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No, he couldn't, and honorary degrees don't count. A four-year degree is, er, a bachelor's degree. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Ok, would there be any way for him to become an enlisted soldier/officer without going through bootcamp? And what qualifies as a "4 year degree" could he be given an honorary degree? would that count?
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It seems like what you describe is closer to a special forces Alpha team than anything else. About a dozen experienced sergeants lead by an officer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ed_States_Army)
I'm curious why you feel the civilian needs a military rank. When I was over there last year we had a number of civilians attached to us. Some were armed, some weren't, but all of them followed our orders in combat, while my men were subordinate to them when they performed their specialties.
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As pointed out earlier "civilian" isn't the right word. |
Originally Posted by Sir Neil
No, he couldn't, and honorary degrees don't count. A four-year degree is, er, a bachelor's degree.
It seems like what you describe is closer to a special forces Alpha team than anything else. About a dozen experienced sergeants lead by an officer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ed_States_Army) I'm curious why you feel the civilian needs a military rank. When I was over there last year we had a number of civilians attached to us. Some were armed, some weren't, but all of them followed our orders in combat, while my men were subordinate to them when they performed their specialties. |
General recruits person
Person can't go through basic training due to the need to bring him on board rapidly.
So really it's a matter of is Boot camp 100% mandatory or can they bypass it via some method, like a general or the president waving it.
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Nothing prevents the General from hiring a civilian contractor. But being in the military is not about fitting the uniform or learning to pull a trigger. Militaries like all organizations have rules and procedures and cultures. Being a civilian contractor this person can still help the military in almost any capacity. They would not be able (generally) to give orders to combat soldiers actually in combat, but you wouldn't want them to. A civilian recruited by a General with no time to pass either boot camp or officer training would have no idea how the military works, what is legal and illegal, what general orders everyone is expected to follow, the correct way to even give an order and how soldiers will interpret and follow that order. What they normally do in combat and what you have to plan for. Practical logistics issues. They would be basically totally ignorant no matter how smart they were.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
As pointed out earlier "civilian" isn't the right word.
General recruits person Person can't go through basic training due to the need to bring him on board rapidly. So really it's a matter of is Boot camp 100% mandatory or can they bypass it via some method, like a general or the president waving it. |
It would kind of be like taking a random person off the street that was intelligent but inexperienced and making him the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks. Even if he's watched football all his life, if he hasn't actually played the game, hasn't actually coached the game, and hasn't actually been around the game directly, he won't even speak the same language as his players or assistants much less be able to coach them effectively.
So I think the correct answer is: it could happen, but no one would ever want it to happen.
One other aside on the subject of rank. Officers are basically managers: they manage other soldiers. Enlisted men are typically the ones that actually fight. There's a memorable scene in Band of Brothers where Captain Dick Winters is watching his unit who he used to directly command as an Lt get hammered because its current commanding officer freezes. At one point he actually starts to move like he's going to run onto the field himself and take over but is immediately admonished by *his* commanding officer, whereupon he orders another Lt to run out there and take command. Because no matter how smart, brave, and proven as a combat commander Winters was, and no matter that he knew that unit better than anyone else, he was a Captain and Captains do not run out into enemy fire taking command of just a handful of people. He had larger responsibilities which is why he *was* a Captain.
Having said that, if I was an Lt or Captain or Grand Moff or whatever and I was asked to assemble the best possible combat unit to go fight advanced alien invaders, I'm absolutely certain there wouldn't be anyone in my selected group that had a rank higher than Lt or so, and would be full of enlisted men. Because those are the guys with *the most experience* actually being in combat, doing the job I now need them to do. I would want Seal Team Six (DevGru, whatever), not the officer's club. I would want the killers, not the middle managers.
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This is why Sergeants tend to be viewed as badass. They're the highest rank of the folks what actually get out there and do the killin'. Sergeants need to be told where to fight, but once the fight starts they're in charge.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Having said that, if I was an Lt or Captain or Grand Moff or whatever and I was asked to assemble the best possible combat unit to go fight advanced alien invaders, I'm absolutely certain there wouldn't be anyone in my selected group that had a rank higher than Lt or so, and would be full of enlisted men. Because those are the guys with *the most experience* actually being in combat, doing the job I now need them to do. I would want Seal Team Six (DevGru, whatever), not the officer's club. I would want the killers, not the middle managers.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
So the team would be more like... "The Captain" would be in the Special Forces as would the other 3 members of team? And the 3 SF members would be E-4s and E-5s?
If I understand correctly then does this work better?
1. Special Forces Officer - O-3 Captain
2. Special Forces Engineer Sergeant - E-5 Sergeant
3. Special Forces Weapons Sergeant - E-4 Corporal
4. Special Forces Communications Sergeant - E-4 Corporal
5. Special Forces Candidate? Warrant officer? - E-1 Private?
I have nooooooooo clue how the ranks in Special Forces work...it seems there isn't from wiki, but there has to be some thing... perhaps the normal rank up?
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Depends on which special forces you mean. In the United States, that term refers to two different things. The United States Army Special Forces which are also known as the Green Berets, and the Special Operations Command units, which are comprised of all the "special" units from the different military branches of service.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
So the team would be more like... "The Captain" would be in the Special Forces as would the other 3 members of team? And the 3 SF members would be E-4s and E-5s?
If I understand correctly then does this work better? 1. Special Forces Officer - O-3 Captain 2. Special Forces Engineer Sergeant - E-5 Sergeant 3. Special Forces Weapons Sergeant - E-4 Corporal 4. Special Forces Communications Sergeant - E-4 Corporal 5. Special Forces Candidate? Warrant officer? - E-1 Private? I have nooooooooo clue how the ranks in Special Forces work...it seems there isn't from wiki, but there has to be some thing... perhaps the normal rank up? |
Because the different members of different special forces units come from different branches, they of course have different rank names (although they are all congruent to the E and O designations across services).
The units most identified with "special forces" by most people outside the military are the Army special forces operational detachment delta ("Delta Force"), the US Navy SEALs, and the US Army Special Forces (Green Berets). Less well known but still recognizable are the Force Recon units of the Marines, and the Airborne Rangers of the Army.
They are not all interchangeable and do not all do precisely the same things, although all of them can mess up anyone's day under almost any circumstances. My guess is that the best match for small unit strike teams would be the SEALs. A SEAL team has about 150 combat personnel and is commanded by a Commander, and is organized around platoons of about 20 men each, commanded by a lieutenant. They in turn can be organized into fire teams of about five men each, commanded by the highest ranking man in each unit, often an NCO.
As far as I know, all of the members of all of the special operations units are recruited from within their own branches of service, and as a rule are never "drafted" into those units directly. SEALs must serve in the Navy in some capacity before they can apply to be SEALs. Airborne Rangers must already be in the army to apply to Ranger school. There isn't any such thing as a "candidate" as such actually in the units, since any such person would be in a training facility, not in an actual operational unit.
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In the Navy|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Let m ask this... Is the rank establish as soon as boot camp starts? If so then Boot Camp last 180 days according to wiki this would mean that a E-1 is boot camp and you achieve E-2 at the end of "normal" boot camp.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promo...npromrates.htm says "12 months active duty, 4 months as an E-2..." What does this mean? 12 months active duty means from the point of entering boot camp? It's weird cuz if E-1 to E-2 is automatic after 6 months and E-2 to E-3 is more or less automatic if the requirement is 12 months active and 4 months as E-2 does that mean that if you have to b an E-2 six months if you are doing perfect and 4 months if you've messed up in some way? Also I go back to the Civilian guy that's going to enter into this organization... would he be given a E-1 rank with an acting rank of E-2 or something like that? |
E-1 to E-2 only requires 9 months of active duty and the CO's approval on the Enlisted Performance Evaluation.
E-2 to E-3 only requires 9 additional months of active duty and the CO's approval on the Enlisted Performance Evaluation. (Commands have the option of giving an Apprenticeship examinations consist of 150 questions. 100 questions are on the specific apprenticeship (job) and 50 questions are on general military subjects. Even so, promotions to E-3 are not competitive. The exams are pass/fail. Those who achieve a passing score can be promoted, those who don't receive a passing score will have to try again.)
E-3 to E-4 requires 6 additional months of active duty, and passing whatever additional training is required for the specific rating, and the CO's approval on the Enlisted Performance Evaluation.
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Furthermore you can't even be considered a candidate for several of the "Special Forces" unless you have already completed prior standard training, and time on active duty.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As far as I know, all of the members of all of the special operations units are recruited from within their own branches of service, and as a rule are never "drafted" into those units directly. SEALs must serve in the Navy in some capacity before they can apply to be SEALs. Airborne Rangers must already be in the army to apply to Ranger school. There isn't any such thing as a "candidate" as such actually in the units, since any such person would be in a training facility, not in an actual operational unit.
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For example to become a Special Amphibious Reconnaissance Corpsman one needs to pass the following screening and training.
Male graduates of Field Medical Service School, hospitalman to hospital corpsman 2nd class (That's E-5), who are currently serving with a Marine Corps unit may attend the screening.
Candidates must have a current ASVAB general technical score of 100 or higher.
The last three physical fitness assessments and be able to achieve a first class swim qualification.
A commanding officer endorsement is also required.
No non-judicial punishments for 12 months and no court-martials for 24 months.
The extensive training requires a commitment to serve as a recon corpsman for a minimum of three years.
Qualified recon corpsmen are sent to a "Marines Awaiting Reconnaissance Training" (MART) platoon at Camp Pendleton, CA where they train continuously. Once a corpsman passes the screening criteria, he must attend the 13-week Basic Reconnaissance Course at Camp Pendleton, CA. After BRC, the corpsman must complete training schools that include the United States Marine Corps Combatant Diver Course, Army Basic Airborne School and Amphibious Reconnaissance Corpsman Course
Occupational Classification
After completion of Phase 1-6 listed below, corpsman holding the NEC 8404 will be awarded the NEC 8427. All other personnel will be able to perform as a qualified inside tender.
NEC 8404 Fleet Marine School graduate
Basic Reconnaissance School MOS (0321) (9 weeks)
Marine Combatant Dive School (7 weeks)
Amphibious Reconnaissance Course (3 weeks)
US Army Special Operations Combatant Medic course (36 weeks)
US Army Basic Airborne School (3 weeks). Sailors possessing NEC 8404 will be awarded NEC 8427.
US Army Special Operations Combat Medic ADSOCM (24 weeks). Sailors holding the NEC 8427 will be awarded NEC 8403.
The SARCs are a team of 22 senior corpsmen and seventy-two junior corpsmen (all of whom are non commissioned officers), trained and specialized in the same aspects of their Recon Marine counterparts, in amphibious, deep recon and direct action. They are also capable of conducting detailed underwater ship-bottom searches. During operational status, the teams will then be dispersed evenly throughout the Marine recon platoons; usually one amphibious recon corpsman per platoon.
SARCs have regularly acted as the point man, as sharp shooters, as the radio operator, or even the team leader in the Marine recon teams/platoons.
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Oh know they don't all do the same thing. I don't know the differences really as they all APPEAR to me to do the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
They are not all interchangeable and do not all do precisely the same things, although all of them can mess up anyone's day under almost any circumstances.
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Army = Infantry
Navy = Ships
Air Force = Planes
Marines, Green Berets, SEALs, etc all do exactly the same thing from my knowledge which is they are an elite group of combat trained soldiers that usually deal in smaller teams to achieve very specific tasks.
What i need is a simple definition of each one's function more or less.
And then it would be nice if you guys could tell me who you'd choose to form this, their specialties and such.
I could just choose any group. I get that, but I'm asking from people who are more experienced if you had to forum this 5 man team given what I've said who would you choose for those 3 members?
Yes I also get that a captain would run a Fire team nor would a newbie person even be allowed near this, but I'm going to keep that conceit so please also keep that in mind...
These 3 members are sorta important because I'm building characters up around them and I don't know anything about how they might act or anything like that so I need to do a bit of research once I figure this out...
As an aside that one might keep in mind about this... This team will be more or less the only team within the organization formed like this so it's not like telling me i'd pick x will play across the entire organization...
Off the top of my head if I were putting together this team against a aliens like this I'd want someone experienced in urban warfare for a commander. A person with linguistic skills, hacking skills for encryption breaking, a computer hardware specialist who can adapt to whatever computer system they come across. An expert in engineering and weapons. Probably someone who has multiple expertise in vehicle piloting/driving. I'd also likely want someone who knows their physics, practical and theoretical, and I'd want all of them to be good close quarters fighters with guns and other weapons.
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According to wiki there is a thing called the X-Ray program that sends you through all the necessary training which is something like 2-5 years in total starting at boot camp. I'm not sure if it applies to all special forces, but that is what was said on the linked wiki page.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Furthermore you can't even be considered a candidate for several of the "Special Forces" unless you have already completed prior standard training, and time on active duty.
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"X Ray" is a special civilian enlistment program designation, where you sign up for a direct pipeline to the selection process for Special Forces, instead of getting approval to go from a regular army unit. The total training window, if successful, is somewhere around 2 years, if you don't have any other delays due to injury or getting a class slot. If you wash out of the selection process, you default to Infantry. Rangers have something similar, as does OCS (Officer Candidate School). All have special requirements above and beyond regular enlistment options (higher aptitude test scores, pre-passing of a flight physical, foreign language aptitude test scores, etc.)
Also, as far as I know minimum rank in the Army Special Forces branch is E-6. If you're below that rank during training and selection, you are promoted to that rank upon successful selection. For officers, you need to either go through a commission pipeline after selection and then get back into Special Forces (I would imagine this is rare, but I don't know for sure), or you need to apply for selection as a 1LT (promotable), and would presumably make Captain shortly after.
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wiki specifically states E-4 and above or O-2 that is promotable to O-3 and above
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Originally Posted by Warfarin88
"X Ray" is a special civilian enlistment program designation, where you sign up for a direct pipeline to the selection process for Special Forces, instead of getting approval to go from a regular army unit. The total training window, if successful, is somewhere around 2 years, if you don't have any other delays due to injury or getting a class slot. If you wash out of the selection process, you default to Infantry. Rangers have something similar, as does OCS (Officer Candidate School). All have special requirements above and beyond regular enlistment options (higher aptitude test scores, pre-passing of a flight physical, foreign language aptitude test scores, etc.)
Also, as far as I know minimum rank in the Army Special Forces branch is E-6. If you're below that rank during training and selection, you are promoted to that rank upon successful selection. For officers, you need to either go through a commission pipeline after selection and then get back into Special Forces (I would imagine this is rare, but I don't know for sure), or you need to apply for selection as a 1LT (promotable), and would presumably make Captain shortly after. |
OK. I am probably off base on the promotion upon completion.
I'm was thinking more about time in grade and follow on training before assignment to a team, and I incorrectly related that to completion of the Q. What do I know, I'm no wikipedia. 
Fill your team with spec fours. Sounds like a plan. I'm sure that's what the General would want anyway.
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This is a US army Elistment option (there's a similar option 40 enlistment for the rangers). Basically, they let you reserve a spot in special forces assessment and selection once you go through 11b training (Infantry). If you are not selected, Hooah, Six more years as a grunt Sergent! If you make it, and make it through qualification and training, SF requires a minimum rank so you get a bump. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
According to wiki there is a thing called the X-Ray program that sends you through all the necessary training which is something like 2-5 years in total starting at boot camp. I'm not sure if it applies to all special forces, but that is what was said on the linked wiki page.
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Also, this is all stuff you can get off the internet from the various branches' websites so take it with a grain of salt.
All military special forces perform Direct Action, Hostage Rescue, Counter Terrorism, Special Reconnaissance, unconventional warfare and foreign internal defense operations, but they have their own specialties and reputations. They all have their own thing's they're more likely to do than others. A short list:
US Army Special Forces: Unconventional Warfare, and Asymetrical warfare specialists. They'd be most likely to convert and train foreign citizens to fight on our side.
US Army Special Forces Operational detachment Delta: "counter terrorism"
Navy Seals: Hostage rescue and Direct action. See: Somali pirates and Osama bin Laden. Also Seals are a Sea Air and Land team not just ships.
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Also do the math on the time in service and compare it to the X-ray program which says 2-5 years.
E-1 to E-2 requires 9 months active duty.
E-2 to E-3 requires 9 additional months of active duty.
E-3 to E-4 requires 6 additional months of active duty.
E-4 to E-5 requires 12 additional months of active duty, and promotions are only given if a vacancy in the command structure is available E-4 and above. So you can be qualified and pass the exams but not be promoted because there isn't a slot available. Then you take the tests all over again next cycle.
That's 3 years minimum right there. X-ray is not a short cut.
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This is probably massive overgeneralization, and there's certainly a lot of overlap, and no matter what else all of them are very good combat soldiers, but I tend to see Delta as the urban assault and hostage rescue people: the Army's version of SWAT. The Special Forces Green Berets I tend to see as the counter-insurgency people: the guys that go "in-country" so to speak and work with the locals. And I see the SEALs as the combat insertion specialists. If you need a small force there, and they have to start here, and there's no taxi service between the two, the SEALs are the ones you go to.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Oh know they don't all do the same thing. I don't know the differences really as they all APPEAR to me to do the same thing.
Army = Infantry Navy = Ships Air Force = Planes Marines, Green Berets, SEALs, etc all do exactly the same thing from my knowledge which is they are an elite group of combat trained soldiers that usually deal in smaller teams to achieve very specific tasks. What i need is a simple definition of each one's function more or less. And then it would be nice if you guys could tell me who you'd choose to form this, their specialties and such. |
One other thing worth mentioning: in a colloquial if not military technical sense, the entire US Marine Corp is a form of special operations group, but not in the same way as the SEALs or Green Berets. They are explicitly defined to be the US expeditionary and reactionary readiness force. In other words, explicitly built into their reason for existence is the notion that they have a specific mission: be ready to deploy to anywhere in a large enough force to perform conventional warfare with limited assistance. And they have noteworthy specialties as well: they have a renowned sniper school, for example.
The US Marine Corp also has unique properties relative to other US military services. In the Marines, all enlisted personnel regardless of position or specialty is trained to be a combat infantry soldier, and all officers are trained to be combat infantry commanders (at least, so I've heard). That means technically speaking even the dude in the tent that operates the radios can pick up a rifle and take command of a Marine combat force if the situation called for it. You could say the Marine Corp is unconventional in their extreme focus on the conventional combat soldier.
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I've changed the the officer ranks nearly completely and taken into consideration everything that has been said. While I haven't stated "I have changed this now" or something like that, those points that I saw were wrong based on what has been said have been changed.
What you may take as "ignoring" is that I've completely changed something and/or am explaining something more clearly due to vagueness perhaps causing a problem such as "the civilian" being referred to as a civilian which he isn't after the point where he joins and that wasn't being understood.
Anyways...
Someone said that the fireteam would consist of E-1, E-2, E-3, and E-4 (along with the E-5 leader)... How is that the case? Isn't E-1 and E-2 both basic training ranks and would never be put in a live fire situation? so wouldn't the fire team be mad up of E-3s and E-4s and the E-5 being the leader?