Natural Legends (all other origins need not apply)

Batman is tech.

Even when punching the Joker he likes to put on bat tazer knuckles.

Here's the thing:

If Batman were to register as a hero in Paragon City, he could legitimately check 'Natural' or 'Tech' on the little application form.

Since he doesn't normally use magic enhancers, he would probably go with 'Tech'.

Or he would write in "Batman", the annoyed intern would look at that and file him as 'Mutant", and he would be forced to facepalm.

What in the world is all this arguing about?

Origins are supposed to be just another line of text in your bio, they don't dictate anything serious about your character other than "does the Nemesis Staff do extra damage in your hands."

You're SUPPOSED to interpret them as you see fit.

Is your character a NATURAL because you're just some random dude, or is he a TECH origin character because he has a TALKING CAR? Both answers are acceptable and dictate HOW YOU SEE YOUR CHARACTER. They don't change the character into something else and they have no bearing on mechanics. That's A GOOD THING(tm).

You can look at a character with a high-tech rifle and say "this character is a natural because it's the gun that's high tech, not the character." Or you can say "This character is a tech origin character, because without the gun the character would be powerless." And there are stories to be told from both perspectives.
In the case of the first point-of-view, if you were writing stories and wanted to emphasize that, you'd have the character fight crime (pssh) without the gun in some cases, even if it's just because they got disarmed and had to punch a few people in the face.
Meanwhile if you wanted to approach the story as if it's the story of the gun being the source of the power, then someone else getting the gun would give them the same power. You could have someone (probably a friend of the first protagonist) pick up the gun and go into battle, either to continue the legacy of the first character or to avenge them, etc.

If it's any consolation, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between those characters' origins, because they deliberately play with the borderline between them.

I personally feel that the characters' origin is intended to reveal only the beginning of the character's story, so the arachnos archetypes are correct and the power origin should not change. They didn't become villains as a tech character they became natural origin villains and only use arachnos tech because it's around.

I would say Batman is a tech character due to his gadgets, not a natural character (though this depends on the age of the story/the writer/the storyline, etc) and not a science character because the scientific method is not a power origin.

I'd say that Superman is a natural character because he's "normal" for his species. It just happens to be that he's supercharged by our sun.

I'd say that "Magic" doesn't just revolve around the stage magician trope, and that anyone with a cursed or magically empowered object that they use for their crimes or crime-fighting qualifies, as well as one of my faves, a magically animated statue.

Science and Mutant can cross over at times. Some of you may be aware that Daredevil and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have the same origin. Not simply the same kind of origin, but the exact same car crash, broken can of mutagen falling into the sewer incident. It's the kind of thing that would land someone into legal trouble today but it's worth asking: Where does the "science" end and the "mutant created by science" begin?

Sure it would be cooler if you could choose to simply toggle the origins on and off at a whim so you could be "Regular average everyday guy turned into a mutant via science, using technology enhanced by magical power," But how do you balance that in-game, mechanics wise? I mean if that was all it took to make your character capable of using every SO without caring about what kind it is, sure, go for it!
...but that's boring.


edit:
pssh, I forgot why I came in here.

Not too long ago when Titan Weapons came out I saw someone create a variant of John Henry using the railroad sign as his titan weapon. It was beautiful. I'd definitely consider that a Natural Legend.

With regards to the ones you can't wrap your head around,
Legendary Mutant - Godzilla?
Legendary Science - Tesla
Legendary Tech - Mechs? Heck if I stumbled across one I'd be all "Holy crap it's the MadCat of Legend! Let's use it to rob a hotdog stand!"
Legendary Magic - Hell, almost every magical object is legendary so this is odd only because "legend" is probably the most common word amongst magic origins. "It's the sword of legend, excalibur!" "It's the Magical Scarab of Legend!" "It's the Angelic Mithril Chainmail of Legend +3" "It's the Legendary Corset of Whatsername"

Heh. Natural tends to be my favorite origin to use, partly because of how I interpret it in the game's universe. In real life just about the only 'origins' for the legendary are either natural or technology, and if you take the long view of history it's skewed very definitely toward the 'natural' side. It's only been recently that we've taken such vast strides to use technology to supplant human skill, training, and ability.

In a comic book world, though, what comes 'naturally' is very different. I have a character who controls the spirits of the dead and the life force of the living. Not because she found a spell, made an incantation, got stuck in an experiment, grew a new sense by mutating DNA, or used a gadget, but just because she saw and listened to ghosts, and through time and self-training learned to understand and manipulate life and death energies that exist around her.

I define 'natural' as a skill the character is born with, using genes that have not diverged from their lineage, and not related to tomes, equipment, incantations, or some life-changing science experiment. But using skills that are simply trained/learned/known, with nothing more than natural genes and skills means FAR different things in a universe of superscience, rampant spells, and super powers galore. In a super-world like CoH/V, the mundane would be legendary when compared to many real life 'legends.'

So what's "naturaly" "legendary" in CoH? I'd submit a "super" natural character that can stand aside the great other heroes or villains just with their will and skill and talents and not skip a beat. They can't be disarmed without serious physical/mental damage, and can't have their abilities negated or siphoned away. They are super because that's what they've done with what they were born with. They become "legendary" when they then surpass most of the other superpowered compatriots or enemies and come to a point where they can't be much more powerful, and yet never needed gadgets/ runes/ procedures to make them any better.

As mechanics go, my more 'legendary' natural characters may use invention sets and/or incarnate abilities, and are usually high level if not level 50. But story-wise all these powers were gained through a logical progression of their understanding and training paired with their already present talents.

The dichotomy of the 'pinnacle of ability using only natural skill' between CoH/V and real life is what actually makes it interesting. I see the natural character at level one as only having their innate predispositions...as they level up, they figure out new ways to utilize those, becoming more and more powerful. In real life everyone would be stuck, in my opinion, in the early levels (pre-ten, perhaps pre-5) and "leveling" and "slotting" increases in skill and ability could only come through countless hours and many years. They would be able to use their few talents far better with time, but never to the lengths that the game goes. Even at that, most of the skills present in the game could never happen. But that's what makes the game about "Super"heroes, and makes "Natural" CoH/V characters so interesting to me.

I don't mean to sound dismissive when I say this, so please take heed, but: Is this argument over which origin covers what character really relevant? I'm not saying it doesn't matter, so much as I'm saying that origins appear - at least to me - to be drawn so broad as to show different faces to different people intentionally. From the various interpretations of various people I've heard over the years, Origins seem less like hard facts and more like a Rorschach inkblot test - you see them as what you're predisposed to see them as.

One reason I say this is that even if you proclaim a character to be of the "Natural" origin, that alone doesn't make that character fit Leo's concept of the Natural Legends. Remember, our "Natural" origin is quite broad. Jack Emmert himself insisted that if Superman existed in City of Heroes, he'd be Natural. Argue with the man if you want, but it's still a possibility. The example I most usually like to give is Son Goku and pretty much everyone alive by the end of DBZ. Sure, Goku and the other supers aren't quite human, but Kurinin and the others are, and they can still blow up mountains with their inner energy.

Speaking purely for myself, I no longer have any "Natural Legends." I used to, back before I had a character past level 30, but once I actually got to 50, that ambition took a dirt nap. The way the game is designed, your character will eventually be forced to fight giant robots, space aliens armed to the teeth, gods and more, and forced to fight them head-on. In a movie or a book, these situations can be solved by some kind of plot device, but City of Heroes has many instances where that simply isn't possible. You WILL fight Hequat, and you won't beat her by exploiting her weakness or somehow finding a third option. You will beat her by punching her in the face repeatedly. And I remind you - Hequat is a literal goddess.

I really don't hold it against people who play these kinds of characters. I'm sure the game, as presented, can be reinterpreted to suggest alternate solutions to brute-force problems that a more regular person who can't take the Kronos Titan's Quad Plasma Cannons to the face can still employ. I know that, personally, I just don't enjoy that just as a matter of opinion, and this predisposes me to seek the much simpler solution, which is to make super characters who are overpowered enough to face down those exaggerated threats exactly as the admittedly limited gameplay depicts it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I see no problem with John Henry bashing a railroad sign into a God's face and hurting them.

Especially if he's on a team.

It's very "comic book logic."