Quote:
I thought Nucleolus Exposures, as clearly stated in their description, only enhanced Accuracy and Damage? If they somehow enhanced Resistance as well, then it should have been obvious to you that this was an exploit. As such, the title of your thread is misleading, as it's not a "HamiO nerf", it's an exploit fix. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Yeah, Kheldians have a long list of requests and this is hardly top priority, but I do think I have a fair argument for it so I'm going to post it anyways:
Nucleolus Exposures were a huge benefit to Eclipse because they enhanced accuracy and resistance. Eclipse is the only accurate resist power in the game, so we have no other way to enhance those 2 important attributes in one slot. What I'm proposing is that since the Devs have ruined our only efficient alternative, that an accurate resist enhancement be created in its place. I'm not expecting a whole set, just a single enhancement- A synthetic HamiO maybe. The Kheldian's Grace gimmick would have been a perfect chance to give us something this useful, but oh well. |
Why you would expect anything special from the Devs in return for the loss of your favorite exploit is beyond me.
reasonable request imo; there exsists no accurate resistence set in game, there is no HO that intentionally covers accuracy and resistence so the only way to to enhance both attributes in one slot post nerf would be to add enhancements that can cover both attributes
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I thought Nucleolus Exposures, as clearly stated in their description, only enhanced Accuracy and Damage? If they somehow enhanced Resistance as well, then it should have been obvious to you that this was an exploit. As such, the title of your thread is misleading, as it's not a "HamiO nerf", it's an exploit fix.
Why you would expect anything special from the Devs in return for the loss of your favorite exploit is beyond me. |
Because there are no other enhancements that enhance accuracy and resistance, and so it is a nerf to one particular power. The devs decided not to make any other accurate resist powers, so we're left with no enhancements that serve our purpose. Accurate healing IO's were added when there was no alternative. The only enhancement that existed in the game which could be used to the advantage of Eclipse in that category will soon no longer be functional.
Quote:
You fail to recognize my most pertinent point: the fact that Nucleolus HO's were never intended to enhance resistance. If they had been, their description would have stated that they enhanced Accuracy, Damage, and Damage Resistance. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Because there are no other enhancements that enhance accuracy and resistance, and so it is a nerf to one particular power. The devs decided not to make any other accurate resist powers, so we're left with no enhancements that serve our purpose. Accurate healing IO's were added when there was no alternative. The only enhancement that existed in the game which could be used to the advantage of Eclipse in that category will soon no longer be functional.
|
You've been enjoying the benefits of an exploit, and are now decrying the fact that you will no longer be able to use it. You can still slot Accuracy IO's and Resistance IO's in Eclipse, but for lesser values than you had achieved through the blatant use of an exploit. Nothing's being taken from you that you shouldn't have expected to be taken away at some point, and I doubt that the Devs are going to waste their time to make an entire new category of IO set just to mimic an exploit that was used in a single power, in a single AT.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
You've been enjoying the benefits of an exploit, and are now decrying the fact that you will no longer be able to use it. You can still slot Accuracy IO's and Resistance IO's in Eclipse, but for lesser values than you had achieved through the blatant use of an exploit. Nothing's being taken from you that you shouldn't have expected to be taken away at some point, and I doubt that the Devs are going to waste their time to make an entire new category of IO set just to mimic an exploit that was used in a single power, in a single AT. |
The difference between this situation and say, the Enzyme situation is that there are other IO's that are designed to enhance defense and endurance- That exploit wasn't a matter of not having another alternative, it was a matter of blatantly exploiting for better enhancement values.
Quote:
The most common use of HO exploiting that I had heard of was in Shield Defense:Active Defense, to enhance DDR which was otherwise not enhanceable(the power does not accept Defense IO's, Defense Sets, or Defense SO's, per design), but there is little difference in what you've been doing with Eclipse and the Nucleolus HO's. You used an HO that was only meant to enhance Damage and Accuracy(per description) to enhance Damage Resistance. How is that not an exploit?|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The difference between this situation and say, the Enzyme situation is that there are other IO's that are designed to enhance defense and endurance- That exploit wasn't a matter of not having another alternative, it was a matter of blatantly exploiting for better enhancement values.
|
Exploits are not "alternatives", they are exploits, ways of gaming the system to obtain unintended benefits which are otherwise unobtainable. So you had no other way of gaining very high Accuracy along with very high Damage Resistance and high enough Recharge to make it all permanent with only four slots(I looked at your build further down the Kehldian thread)? Big deal. So it's going to cost you an extra slot or two to retrofit Eclipse for i22, drop the sense of entitlement and redo your build.
Quote:
It's an "exploit" that has been well known since ~Issue 1. If you let the status quo sit for over 7 years without any comment (other than saying it wasn't intended but the game engine can't support fixing it), it's no unreasonable for players to adapt.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I thought Nucleolus Exposures, as clearly stated in their description, only enhanced Accuracy and Damage? If they somehow enhanced Resistance as well, then it should have been obvious to you that this was an exploit. As such, the title of your thread is misleading, as it's not a "HamiO nerf", it's an exploit fix.
Why you would expect anything special from the Devs in return for the loss of your favorite exploit is beyond me. |
That said, Eclipse is hardly broken without Nucs.
Quote:
You're way too hostile about this. I would think you were a stealth op for the Dev team if you weren't being so condescending, hah. I never realized anyone would be so angsty over the notion that the game include accurate resist IO's. Sheesh.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
The most common use of HO exploiting that I had heard of was in Shield Defense:Active Defense, to enhance DDR which was otherwise not enhanceable(the power does not accept Defense IO's, Defense Sets, or Defense SO's, per design), but there is little difference in what you've been doing with Eclipse and the Nucleolus HO's. You used an HO that was only meant to enhance Damage and Accuracy(per description) to enhance Damage Resistance. How is that not an exploit?
Exploits are not "alternatives", they are exploits, ways of gaming the system to obtain unintended benefits which are otherwise unobtainable. So you had no other way of gaining very high Accuracy along with very high Damage Resistance and high enough Recharge to make it all permanent with only four slots(I looked at your build further down the Kehldian thread)? Big deal. So it's going to cost you an extra slot or two to retrofit Eclipse for i22, drop the sense of entitlement and redo your build. |
Also, in the interst of civility.. There is a precedent with accurate healing sets. You could say that heals with tohit checks don't need their own sets either, because you could just frankenslot accuracy and heal IO's, but they still got some. I'm not even asking for whole sets, I'm asking for a single enhancement to be created, possibly as a replacement or alternative for a Kheldian's Grace piece since Eclipse is the only power that would benefit from it. I hardly think it's overpowering and it'd be a nice addition in my opinion. You're welcome to disagree, but you don't have to be accusatory and flat-out rude about it.
Quote:
Agreed.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You're way too hostile about this. I would think you were a stealth op for the Dev team if you weren't being so condescending, hah. I never realized anyone would be so angsty over the notion that the game include accurate resist IO's. Sheesh.
Also, in the interst of civility.. There is a precedent with accurate healing sets. You could say that heals with tohit checks don't need their own sets either, because you could just frankenslot accuracy and heal IO's, but they still got some. I'm not even asking for whole sets, I'm asking for a single enhancement to be created, possibly as a replacement or alternative for a Kheldian's Grace piece since Eclipse is the only power that would benefit from it. I hardly think it's overpowering and it'd be a nice addition in my opinion. You're welcome to disagree, but you don't have to be accusatory and flat-out rude about it. |
Sure, the use of the Hamis were an exploit, but no one is crying about how they're getting fixed. That wasn't the purpose of this thread, and I think your "accuser" mistakenly identified it as that.
Maybe it would be better if it were rephrased:
"Since there are no sets or enhancements that have ACC/Resist, there is a power which may benefit from it, and there has been precedent for creating new enhancement sets for particular powers that benefit from them (such as accurate healing powers or even, say, recharge intensive pets), I suggest there be an enhancement (or set) focused on Acc/Resist (with maybe some recharge worked in--either in the set bonuses or in the enhancement itself)."
One quick note... This may be best utilized in the suggestions section of the boards.
However, I believe what THB was doing here was starting a discussion on it within the Kheldian community to see what everyone else thought.
As for my two cents, I'm all for it. Any excuse that makes me look at Mid's for another 35 hours is fine by me.
"Alien"
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
I'm undecided. I like the idea, but I don't think one power alone warrants a set category. Accurate healing is used in every AT, almost. Further, what kind of enhancements would make up the set? How many arrangements of acc, resist, and recharge are really possible? I don't think it would save you any slots, and the set bonuses would most certainly not be defense, considering the only power that could use the set.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
As a proponent of handling things in an orderly fasion I suggest we phrase the comment in this slightly modified fasion....
It has been properly moved (THB) and seconded (AlienOne) that there be either an enhancement or set of enhancements wherein accuracy, damage resistance and recharge receive emphasis.
All in favor please say, "Aye!" All opposed please say, "Nay!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And to this I say..."Aye!"
I am in favor of THB's suggestion.
If elected I will strive for its implementation.
Now, regarding my "track record" concerning this exploitation discussion I refer the reader (i.e. constituents) to the following...
"For quite some time I have been aware of the Nuc Expo and recharge IO slottage of Eclipse. The reason why I do not slot it in that fashion is because I have read that it is a "bug" and as such I do not want to use that to my advantage. It smacks of exploitation. I know, I know what you are thinking, "One man's "bug" is another man's "feature." To each his own...well, at least until he/she gets "Dev Smacked." - AIB
"Yep, I know about that "bug" and I have never...utilized...it, not even with my Elec/Shield Scrapper. Let me know if you find the Dev discussion until they give the go ahead I'm not going to do it. Not even if my friends are all doing it. My parents always told me not to give in to peer pressure ." - AIB
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=266652
(cf. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=281858&page=2)
AIB a candid, composed and confident candidate!
The Khelds' clear choice in the 2012 campaign!
Quote:
You are mistakenly equating hostility with pointing out the facts of the matter, facts which you have attempted to sidestep or ignore in every response you've made. You're comparing apples and oranges when talking about Accurate Healing sets and the situation at hand, it's a straw man argument. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You're way too hostile about this. I would think you were a stealth op for the Dev team if you weren't being so condescending, hah. I never realized anyone would be so angsty over the notion that the game include accurate resist IO's. Sheesh.
Also, in the interst of civility.. There is a precedent with accurate healing sets. You could say that heals with tohit checks don't need their own sets either, because you could just frankenslot accuracy and heal IO's, but they still got some. I'm not even asking for whole sets, I'm asking for a single enhancement to be created, possibly as a replacement or alternative for a Kheldian's Grace piece since Eclipse is the only power that would benefit from it. I hardly think it's overpowering and it'd be a nice addition in my opinion. You're welcome to disagree, but you don't have to be accusatory and flat-out rude about it. |
What you want, as you have plainly stated, is a new enhancement which will provide the same benefit that you had to use an exploit to gain in the first place. That's a definite sense of entitlement.
If speaking the truth is equivalent to being "accusatory and flat-out rude", then color me guilty.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
Sure, the use of the Hamis were an exploit, but no one is crying about how they're getting fixed. That wasn't the purpose of this thread, and I think your "accuser" mistakenly identified it as that.
|
Quote:
No it's not. You're just looking for an argument. I'm not arguing, you're arguing. I'm just asking you to be nicer to people. |
Originally Posted by Fugacity
You are mistakenly equating hostility with pointing out the facts of the matter, facts which you have attempted to sidestep or ignore in every response you've made. You're comparing apples and oranges when talking about Accurate Healing sets and the situation at hand, it's a straw man argument.
|
Quote:
| What you want, as you have plainly stated, is a new enhancement which will provide the same benefit that you had to use an exploit to gain in the first place. That's a definite sense of entitlement. |
Quote:
|
If speaking the truth is equivalent to being "accusatory and flat-out rude", then color me guilty. I identified the thread as a zero-sum argument, in that the OP is claiming that something is owed(new IO) because something else(unintended Nucleolus HO functionality) is being taken away. But what is being taken away is a well known exploit of game mechanics, so I don't believe that anything is owed to balance things out. The exploiters played with fire, they should have expected to get burned eventually. |
*stares at wall of text*
Is the therefore why because however that to because!
HOs had it coming. But I'd be down for some accurate resist IOs. Although, when I think about how many powers would actually have a use for accurate resist IOs, I can't think of any besides Eclipse. It would seem a strange concern for the devs to create a new enhancement set, as easy or difficult as that may be, for use in a single power.
Maybe a better fix would be to eliminate accuracy as a concern for eclipse by giving it 1.2 or 1.5 acc to begin with. That way the devs don't have to worry about it missing, they don't have to create a new enhancement set for one single power, and they can avoid any problems autohit status may pose.
Or maybe there are other powers that an accurate resist set would apply to and I'm just forgetting them?
Quote:
Four sentences equate to a "wall of text" for you? What I wrote was in plain English, clearly defining my point, yet your only response is nonsensical mockery. Very telling.
|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
*stares at wall of text*
Is the therefore why because however that to because! |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Four sentences equate to a "wall of text" for you? What I wrote was in plain English, clearly defining my point, yet your only response is nonsensical mockery. Very telling.
|
I'm not playing with you anymore.
Quote:
I think I'd like to hear an explanation for why you think the Accurate Healing sets aren't comparable, since the situation strikes me as very similar.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
You are mistakenly equating hostility with pointing out the facts of the matter, facts which you have attempted to sidestep or ignore in every response you've made. You're comparing apples and oranges when talking about Accurate Healing sets and the situation at hand, it's a straw man argument.
|
Since IOs came out, one could generally expect that a power which could be enhanced for accuracy and for effect could get dual-aspect enhancements for those things... unless it was a healing power or certain debuffs (or Eclipse), in which case you were out of luck.
Then they added those new sets. Now, you can get your accuracy with damage, healing, control, debuff, all kinds of things... In fact, if there's anything you'd want it with that you can't *get* it with except resistance, I'm not aware of it.
This isn't even comparable to the slotting people did with Active Defense. That slotting gives it an effect which is not supposed to be available with enhancements. Eclipse, on the other hand, is supposed to get the sort of enhancement it got. Getting it from *that particular* enhancement was a bug, but it didn't do anything that was just plain not supposed to happen. Moreover, the ability to enhance accuracy and effect together is something that the entire design of the invention system tells us should be possible.
Rather than mess around with new enhancements though, my suggestion is "Give Nucleolus Exposures a 20% resistance component and call it good."
-Morgan.
Quote:
if the point of the HO fix was never brought up, would we even be having this conversation? if this was a simple "can we have a acc/res enhancement/set/ho/whatever" would this even be an issue? of course not. |
Originally Posted by Fugacity
You are mistakenly equating hostility with pointing out the facts of the matter, facts which you have attempted to sidestep or ignore in every response you've made. You're comparing apples and oranges when talking about Accurate Healing sets and the situation at hand, it's a straw man argument.
What you want, as you have plainly stated, is a new enhancement which will provide the same benefit that you had to use an exploit to gain in the first place. That's a definite sense of entitlement. If speaking the truth is equivalent to being "accusatory and flat-out rude", then color me guilty. I identified the thread as a zero-sum argument, in that the OP is claiming that something is owed(new IO) because something else(unintended Nucleolus HO functionality) is being taken away. But what is being taken away is a well known exploit of game mechanics, so I don't believe that anything is owed to balance things out. The exploiters played with fire, they should have expected to get burned eventually. |
personally, i agree with plasma, if the status quo doesn't change for 7 years and you let it go on with only 1 comment about it, players adapt to it. and even so, i thought that, while not intended, it did give HOs a more of a use the current IO world, atleast for me, I wouldn't have used them nearly as much if they didn't buff things they weren't supposed to and made builds more interesting. of course it was an exploit, and you can't be sad when they do fix them. i'm just treating this the same as the botz nerf.
as for you, you're mistaking a simple idea and request with a sense of entitlement. TBH didn't come on here saying "THE DEVS BETTER MAKE THESE ENHANCEMENTS CUZ THEY BROKEDEDED MY BUILD WITH THEIR HO NERF" he was simply saying in light of the change, would that be possible. there was no sense of entitlement with his request. this wasn't your "rage at nerf" thread. it would appear that you are trying to make an argument and argue out of nothing.
as for the idea, i think acc/res is too narrow a category, since off the top of my head i can't think of another power that uses such a mechanic,(not to say there aren't any, i just can't think of them). however if there was some way to make a "damage mitigation/acc" set or enhancement that would boost res *or* defense depending on the power, i think that has more applications. but either way it'd be nice to have
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
I hereby decree this the best suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Maybe a better fix would be to eliminate accuracy as a concern for eclipse by giving it 1.2 or 1.5 acc to begin with.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
if the point of the HO fix was never brought up, would we even be having this conversation? if this was a simple "can we have a acc/res enhancement/set/ho/whatever" would this even be an issue? of course not.
... as for you, you're mistaking a simple idea and request with a sense of entitlement. TBH didn't come on here saying "THE DEVS BETTER MAKE THESE ENHANCEMENTS CUZ THEY BROKEDEDED MY BUILD WITH THEIR HO NERF" he was simply saying in light of the change, would that be possible. there was no sense of entitlement with his request. this wasn't your "rage at nerf" thread. it would appear that you are trying to make an argument and argue out of nothing. |
Kay then.
*searches for other threads to read*
"Alien"
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
Powers that utilize Accurate Healing sets are found in many power sets, available in most AT's, including Warshade ST heals. This is a fringe situation affecting Eclipse, one of the most powerful Resistance powers in the game. Currently no power in any other power set or AT would even be able to use an Accurate Resistance set if it were made.|
Originally Posted by Morganite
I think I'd like to hear an explanation for why you think the Accurate Healing sets aren't comparable, since the situation strikes me as very similar.
|
I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but there are several Resistance sets that offer Resistance/Recharge IO's. Slot two of those with an Accuracy and Recharge IO, and the numbers should be about the same as if you had two non-existent Accuracy/Resistance IO's and two Recharge IO's. Right? Problem solved, you're all very welcome.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
if the point of the HO fix was never brought up, would we even be having this conversation? if this was a simple "can we have a acc/res enhancement/set/ho/whatever" would this even be an issue? of course not.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
as for you, you're mistaking a simple idea and request with a sense of entitlement. TBH didn't come on here saying "THE DEVS BETTER MAKE THESE ENHANCEMENTS CUZ THEY BROKEDEDED MY BUILD WITH THEIR HO NERF" he was simply saying in light of the change, would that be possible.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
What I'm proposing is that since the Devs have ruined our only efficient alternative, that an accurate resist enhancement be created in its place.
|
Are you still here? Really?
Quote:
I solved your problem by pointing out that you can use existing Resistance/Recharge IO's instead of requiring a brand new type of IO be invented. I see you've even used my idea in your "For Fun" build, so you should probably thank me for pointing that out.
|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Are you still here? Really?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I solved your problem by pointing out that you can use existing Resistance/Recharge IO's instead of requiring a brand new type of IO be invented. I see you've even used my idea in your "For Fun" build, so you should probably thank me for pointing that out.
|
Did you know the sky is blue also? Everyone already knows about that, and it's not the point. I already told you I'm not playing with you anymore.
Quote:
My instinctive response is to say "So?", but that's probably a little too flip. So instead I'll say try looking at it from the other end. I don't play any characters who have a use for an accurate tohit debuff enhancement.* So there's no need for an accurate tohit debuff set to exist, right? Well no, some people actually have tohit debuff powers that need accuracy. And were I to make a character who had those kind of powers, I'd expect to be able to use sets like those, because that's the expectation created by all the other accurate do-stuff powers I've met.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Powers that utilize Accurate Healing sets are found in many power sets, available in most AT's, including Warshade ST heals. This is a fringe situation affecting Eclipse, one of the most powerful Resistance powers in the game. Currently no power in any other power set or AT would even be able to use an Accurate Resistance set if it were made.
|
... Except for Eclipse. Eclipse breaks the expectations set by the rest of the invention system, which somehow seems like a *bad thing* to me. It's esthetically displeasing, if nothing else.
Now, that doesn't make Accurate Resistance enhancements not something with limited use, which is why I don't support adding a new enhancement category. There's easier ways to fill that void well enough for most purposes.
*May not actually be true, depending in part on whether or not you think enhancing the debuff in Dark Melee attacks is useful. I don't. Anyway, it's hypothetical, hypothetical!
Quote:
|
I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but there are several Resistance sets that offer Resistance/Recharge IO's. Slot two of those with an Accuracy and Recharge IO, and the numbers should be about the same as if you had two non-existent Accuracy/Resistance IO's and two Recharge IO's. Right? Problem solved, you're all very welcome.
|
(Also neither of those things you suggest has enough Res for my taste.)
Quote:
| Agreed, but the exploit fix was brought up in the title of the thread. |
-Morgan.
Yeah, Kheldians have a long list of requests and this is hardly top priority, but I do think I have a fair argument for it so I'm going to post it anyways:
Nucleolus Exposures were a huge benefit to Eclipse because they enhanced accuracy and resistance. Eclipse is the only accurate resist power in the game, so we have no other way to enhance those 2 important attributes in one slot.
What I'm proposing is that since the Devs have ruined our only efficient alternative, that an accurate resist enhancement be created in its place. I'm not expecting a whole set, just a single enhancement- A synthetic HamiO maybe. The Kheldian's Grace gimmick would have been a perfect chance to give us something this useful, but oh well.