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Resisting the urge to say "I told you so."
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I had two very important melee powers in Radiant Strike and Solar Flare. Not only did all of my other attacks grief these powers... they even griefed themselves with massive knockback.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Resisting the urge to say "I told you so."
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Hey, can you blame me for wanting to like my Peacebringer?
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I have both but I cannot say I see any kb powers in any set as griefing the other powers in the set. It does require a more tactical setup than powers without it, but that is just a style deal and certainly does not fall into the griefing realm.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Even this isn't the case in my opinion. I had the inf. to take full advantage and more of the Peacebringer changes, AND I didn't mind playing a human form build... But guess what? It was still clunky and awkward. I had two very important melee powers in Radiant Strike and Solar Flare. Not only did all of my other attacks grief these powers... they even griefed themselves with massive knockback. Not to mention griefing the rest of the team, but I stripped him down and retired him before I got to bringing him on non-casual/with friends teams.
There was that other thing too. The constant HP crash that comes with Perma Light Form is totally manageable and I laugh at anyone who complains about it, but the endurance crash is a serious issue. Light Form was clearly redesigned to be perma-able, so it stands to reason that conserve power being the only endurance recovery tool available to mitigate the -end crash should have its duration and cooldown matched to that of Light Form. The bottom line for me is that the synergy and flow of a Warshade is simply not available to Peacebringers, no matter how badly I wanted it to be. I spent billions of infamy and hours in Mids working on my Peacebringer, because I wanted to like him so badly... But every time I played him all I could think was "My Warshade could deal with this situation more efficiently and comfortably." It just became an exercise in futility for me. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I'd hate to join in on this argument, But I have to agree with Darth. These powers play MUCH like an energy/energy blaster does. It's a completely different AT that works well with a different playstyle. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I have both but I cannot say I see any kb powers in any set as griefing the other powers in the set. It does require a more tactical setup than powers without it, but that is just a style deal and certainly does not fall into the griefing realm.
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Yeah, Peacebringers don't shine AS much as their Warshade counterparts (figuratively speaking.) You have to consider that they are a different AT, therefore they require a different playstyle AND specialize in different fields.
Perfect example:
A mez heavy controller (insert powerset here) has powers that synergize with each other, and work well with locking things down. (So they don't "greif" each other, as THB says)
But an energy/energy blaster has powers that focus on tossing things around, keeping enemies on their rear instead of in your face. I play my Peacebringer exactly how I play my energy/energy blaster, and it works superbly.
They're two different creatures, so saying that a Peacebringer's powers "grief eachother" doesn't really make sense. Does Hotfeet greif a /fire blaster because it makes enemies run away from you? No. So why should a Peacebringer's KB be treated the same way? Peacebringers require a different strategy than a 'Shade does.
If the KB were gone I would be really irritated with the devs. Cause Knockback isn't a problem.
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Not it at all, really.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Ok this part is sort of the answer. It's a case of hoping it had been done already.
I don't see the life and death in it all myself. |
I think I understand Pilgrim's disappointment, but at this point I'll let him speak for himself if he so desires.
Although I don't think a case of the blues could be confused with life and death drama. Can't someone be disappointed without being accused of hyperdrama?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I have both but I cannot say I see any kb powers in any set as griefing the other powers in the set. It does require a more tactical setup than powers without it, but that is just a style deal and certainly does not fall into the griefing realm.
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When you have a melee AOE power, the way it works is that you need to use it from melee range. It's sort of hard to do when the power itself, plus all of your other attacks, knock everything out of melee range.
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The fact that you choose to look at the entire AT in such a narrow way makes me know that this is more of a style/preference issue than something being wrong. As stated above part of playing the PB is you can play it like a true blapper using hover(now with the solarfare change) and use the "toss effect" to your SERIOUS advantage. YMMV due to style preferences as I understand some people don't like to play toss it around while others use it to their advantage.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
When you have a melee AOE power, the way it works is that you need to use it from melee range. It's sort of hard to do when the power itself, plus all of your other attacks, knock everything out of melee range.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The fact that you choose to look at the entire AT in such a narrow way makes me know that this is more of a style/preference issue than something being wrong. As stated above part of playing the PB is you can play it like a true blapper using hover(now with the solarfare change) and use the "toss effect" to your SERIOUS advantage. YMMV due to style preferences as I understand some people don't like to play toss it around while others use it to their advantage.
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I can see energy blast being useful on a solo blaster who needs the mitigation from KB for survivability. On a decked out and practically unkillable Peacebringer the knockback does nothing but hamper progress. Scattering mobs decreases the amount of targets that can be hit with AOE powers- And, like I said, one of those AOE powers is melee range. That means you not only fail to hit the target cap in your AOE's after the alpha strike, but you also need to reposition yourself constantly every time you use your most powerful AOE attack. As a reference point, my Warshade's damage aura clears mobs faster than a Peacebringer.
Anyway, about those Hami-0 changes, has anybody tested them on beta yet? In particularly ecplise.
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IDK man I don't play my PB the way you lay it out, but if you do I can see where the issue lies. If your damage aura is killing better than your PB then there are many things going wrong and kb is probably the least of them.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I can see energy blast being useful on a solo blaster who needs the mitigation from KB for survivability. On a decked out and practically unkillable Peacebringer the knockback does nothing but hamper progress. Scattering mobs decreases the amount of targets that can be hit with AOE powers- And, like I said, one of those AOE powers is melee range. That means you not only fail to hit the target cap in your AOE's after the alpha strike, but you also need to reposition yourself constantly every time you use your most powerful AOE attack. As a reference point, my Warshade's damage aura clears mobs faster than a Peacebringer.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I even took the case to Arbiter Hawk, in person, at the Player Summit and tried to engage him to lay out his (and the Power Team's) point of view on the issues (plural) facing Peacebringers in terms of poor power synergies hampering them in ways that are most decidedly NOT present for Warshades. At this juncture, I have no way of knowing what (or even if!) any impression was made on Arbiter Hawk by that conversation. Then again, he does play his cards much closer to the chest in these matters than other Devs. By his own admission, he lurks the forums "a lot" but almost NEVER posts anything.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I've been complaining about the buff since before it went live. There's a difference between getting a buff that addresses your archetype's problems and getting the wrong buff that only helps a few.
We asked for specific buffs, and got something very different in return. |
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I meant the life and death of the character.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Not it at all, really.
I think I understand Pilgrim's disappointment, but at this point I'll let him speak for himself if he so desires. Although I don't think a case of the blues could be confused with life and death drama. Can't someone be disappointed without being accused of hyperdrama? |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Been busy with my birthday and real life, this thread sure grew after a slow start! I love that "SOPA, you shall not pass!" pic... that's up there with my picture of a road sign with a Gandalf outline with "You shall not pass!"
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Yeah... to put it nicely, I'm not sure how my post earlier equates with "My rage... let me show u it." It's just simple disappointment. I'll try to let it pass at that.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Not it at all, really.
I think I understand Pilgrim's disappointment, but at this point I'll let him speak for himself if he so desires. Although I don't think a case of the blues could be confused with life and death drama. Can't someone be disappointed without being accused of hyperdrama? |
You mentioned a few things already, but some of the latest posts from Synapse recent can illustrate some of my feeling pretty well. Dark Assault is getting a brand new power/PFX, all scraped together just this week! Isn't that great? But wait... there's that whole formshift animation thing that they STILL haven't found time for from I21 to now. Yes, Synapse said they just barely had time for the new dark power, but the irony from my position is rather rich (I'm happy for the Dark set, don't get me wrong, but I'd be more happy if they had found some time for the promised Kheld animations as well).
Synapse has also noted his reluctance to put Umbral Torrent in the new set, due to its KB. The irony here is especially rich to me. Yes, Doms have melee powers, but they also have a lot of good ranged powers. They're much more range focused than human form Peacebringers are, but Peacebringers still have KB in powers that just do not synergize well (quick aside on that, Energy is great on a Blaster... all that KB is not so good on an AT that works better at melee range--and human form PBs are much better at melee range). I see logic at cross purposes from the dark powers to kheldians, and it kind of drives me nuts.
As noted earlier, I also had higher hopes for the devs with Kheldian changes. I probably read too much into Second Falcon saying I22 would have Kheldian changes, and Arbiter Hawk saying he would continue to assess things. But at the very least, I did not think an animation change for the formshift was too much to ask for (and maybe the Light form option to go with it).
It just all adds up to the same old story that many negative types have held to: that Kheldians just are not a priority for the developers (or in a better light, they don't have the resources to do them justice, which I hold to when I'm most down). I'm a realist, but I tend to want to be positive about things. In the face of all the evidence, it's hard to be positive, hence the OP.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
I even took the case to Arbiter Hawk, in person, at the Player Summit and tried to engage him to lay out his (and the Power Team's) point of view on the issues (plural) facing Peacebringers in terms of poor power synergies hampering them in ways that are most decidedly NOT present for Warshades. At this juncture, I have no way of knowing what (or even if!) any impression was made on Arbiter Hawk by that conversation. Then again, he does play his cards much closer to the chest in these matters than other Devs. By his own admission, he lurks the forums "a lot" but almost NEVER posts anything.
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I would say that's asking for a lot with most requests, but Kheldians have been so neglected it would be nice. And we've been at least close enough to changes that some info would be nice (whereas PVP, bases, and AE haven't been close to anything for a long time, so leaving them to sit isn't going to make that big of a difference).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I've been hard on Arbiter Hawk. I didn't like his approach to Kheldians, and frankly I don't like his approach to Stalkers. But that's a whole different ball of wax. I've long gotten over my disagreement with him over Kheldians. They are what they are.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I really, really wish Arbiter Hawk would talk more. Synapse has been great the last two issues, at least acknowledging ideas and saying things might have to wait, etc., and adjusting his plans to feedback. Arbiter Hawk has been quite nice in the PMs I've had with him, but his quietness on the subject is hurting more than helping. I know he doesn't want people hoping for too much or misreading things (as I know I have in the past), but it would be nice to know we're not forgotten.
I would say that's asking for a lot with most requests, but Kheldians have been so neglected it would be nice. And we've been at least close enough to changes that some info would be nice (whereas PVP, bases, and AE haven't been close to anything for a long time, so leaving them to sit isn't going to make that big of a difference). |
I have to admit, however, that I'm just a little pissed at him on your behalf. You totally had his back when people like me were making angry posts in GREAT BIG FONT SIZES and in general causing a ruckus back in the I-21 VIP beta.
Hell, you even managed to calm ME down. But to do so you had to assure us all that there was a promise of future attention. And you had good reason to do so.
Would it be so difficult for him to give some words of encouragement? Just a single post saying "we're happy with where Kheldians are at the moment" would at least let us leaven our expectations.
Now where is he? That's just weak.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Yeah, I've seen dialogue going on for the Stalker changes participated in by both the community and development team. Where is the Kheldian thread? Instead of just lurking our forum, I don't see what the harm would be in talking to us.
Gravity Control got a thread like that too. When we got our last round of changes, we didn't get jack conversation wise. We just got, "Here's what we're doing" and then Grey Pilgrim assuring us that there was more to come. Call me crazy, but I'm seeing a bit of a bias in terms of how the communities of individual power sets (Gravity) and archetypes (Stalkers) are being treated in comparison to us.
Well, of course we don't NEED a thread in the I22 forums, as there isn't any big changes for us! 
In some fairness to the community team, the feedback threads seem more focused and tighter than they were with I21. I think they realized they had way too many threads that time around, but unfortunately that left Kheldians with the short end of the stick. Again.
I think part of the problem with showing people that this IS a problem is that it's no one huge thing. It's a continuing tradition of small things happening over and over to make a Kheldian player feel like they just don't matter.
The continuing story is that the animation team is very, very busy, but they're clearly focusing on things they prioritize. All this fall and winter, we've had a large amount of new powersets and animations, not to mention zones, trials, and incarnate powers. I am hard-pressed to believe that even a Kheldian formshift animation would have been impossible to cram in with all that. As I pointed out in a previous post, Synapse has found time to come up with a new power just in I22 beta, complete with PFX. Yeah...
I'm not suggesting Kheldians by their lonesome are more important than additions to the incarnate system, etc. I am suggesting, however, that they should at least have some work and consideration.
At least we're in somewhat the same boat with Gravity. Hawk wants to keep the KB in Wormhole because somehow that meshes nicely with Dimension Shift. I don't doubt DS is better now, but and AOE mez shouldn't be dependent on another power. It's not something you see in any other aoe mezzes that I can think of (and I did look through the powers lists), so the logic fails me. Same for Hawk's reasoning for keeping the KB in Solar Flare. Synapse wanting to avoid KB in a dark power just makes the oddness all the more glaring.
But yes, I'm confused and a little down about it, for hopefully obvious reasons now. My glorious summer has become a winter of discontent, if you want to be melodramatic/poetic/humorous about it.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
The best thing we can do is keep starting threads, being reasonable with our requests and pointing out why they need to happen. Eventually I'm sure that we will get shorter form shift animations and toggle suppression while shifted, because it's just something that needs to happen, and there's no fathomable dispute at all.
As for retyping the Peacebringer KB to KD, well I hope that happens but I'm not holding my breath. We have a perfectly rational argument, in that it doesn't synergize with the way the Archetype plays and the mitigation from KB is not even necessary to an AT with such high survivability potential. Overpowering isn't a valid reservation from my perspective because even with the KB changed to KD, Peacebringers don't do that much damage. I think it would only serve to put them on par with Warshades in terms of playability.
As of right now, Peacebringers aren't a "jack of all, master of none" Archetype. All they do is damage, and they don't do more than anything else. Sure, Dwarf can tank, but I don't think any better than a Brute can and Brutes do way more damage and have higher survivability potential since Brutes can have defense and resistance toggles.
Glowing Touch is a joke and a cop out for "jack of all trades." Maybe if Peacebringers got some ally buffs and an AOE heal, their support potential would match a Warshade's control potential.
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You know... I kind of wish some of human form's double-dipping ranged attacks had not been implemented in the design phase, and buff powers of some sort were used instead. It's pretty clear that Warshades are supposed to be better mezzers, but you can't really see a clear cut niche for Peacebringers. Probably not going to happen now, but it would help. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Glowing Touch is a joke and a cop out for "jack of all trades." Maybe if Peacebringers got some ally buffs and an AOE heal, their support potential would match a Warshade's control potential.
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Certainly Kheldians are aimed at the jack of all trades idea, but their implementation and some of their specific powers just do not mesh well. Part of the "VEAT envy" people have is just from their better design. They had a clear goal and they are designed effectively toward that goal.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Given whats been said in some of these posts I'd be amazed if changes aren't pushed back.
I suppose we could all read things differently and view whats appropriate differently.
But I won't blame the Devs if they do push things back.
Any buffs is pretty much icing to me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh, and has this thread been particularly venomous? Last time I checked I was allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the developers.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Given whats been said in some of these posts I'd be amazed if changes aren't pushed back.
I suppose we could all read things differently and view whats appropriate differently. But I won't blame the Devs if they do push things back. Any buffs is pretty much icing to me. |
And I do have reasons for it that I can back up. You, on the other hand seem to prefer to believe what you want.
I can respect that and agree to disagree.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Unfortunately, I'm thinking the design intention was "Peacebringers are really good at knocking things back!" which was probably a great way to mitigate damage in the minds of people who implemented Knockback in the first place. Unfortunately, that concept is not one that translates to the current game environment.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
You know... I kind of wish some of human form's double-dipping ranged attacks had not been implemented in the design phase, and buff powers of some sort were used instead. It's pretty clear that Warshades are supposed to be better mezzers, but you can't really see a clear cut niche for Peacebringers. Probably not going to happen now, but it would help.
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| Certainly Kheldians are aimed at the jack of all trades idea, but their implementation and some of their specific powers just do not mesh well. Part of the "VEAT envy" people have is just from their better design. They had a clear goal and they are designed effectively toward that goal. |
Really, Warshades would be perfect in my eyes after toggle suppression, shortened form shift animations, and some obvious changes to the inherent (mainly changing all resistance bonuses to defense bonuses.) I would also like to see Eclipse carry over to Extracted Essences. Peacebringers on the other hand... Well, I addressed that in my last post, and while I feel that the i21 changes helped them out a lot I still think the AT is a mess.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Oh, and has this thread been particularly venomous? Last time I checked I was allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the developers.
And I do have reasons for it that I can back up. You, on the other hand seem to prefer to believe what you want. I can respect that and agree to disagree. |
Ignore New Dawn... Known troll on the Kheldian board.
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I like New Dawn. Just marches to a different drum as us is all.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Ignore New Dawn... Known troll on the Kheldian board.
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I actually to read other responses to this post to figure out what you even mean. You actually think this thread is harsh? I know you hang out in the Tanker forums... Johnny Butane can be quite harsh about the devs and tankers. Expressing disappointment that promised work has not yet been done is not a harsh thing in the slightest. I'm not even angry, really... just disappointed. Kheldians are one of the more interesting ATs in CoH, and I hate that they keep getting ignored like they do.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Given whats been said in some of these posts I'd be amazed if changes aren't pushed back.
I suppose we could all read things differently and view whats appropriate differently. But I won't blame the Devs if they do push things back. Any buffs is pretty much icing to me. |
And "any buffs are icing" is an odd and broad thing to state. Given that approach, you could say any old change to an AT or powerset that is not working as well as it should is icing... but that ignores pesky little things like if the changes actually fix the problem, or fix it enough. Which has not happened yet, alas. I'm happy that changes were made to Kheldians after they first came in the game, and I11, and I21. Yet for all that list, there are still issues with the AT. If anything, it's the attitude that "any buffs are icing" that has caused them to continue to have problems.
Partial changes often don't get the job done. Castle supposedly had a great, overall plan for improving PvP, and the changes were only half put through... and they have just sat there, without anyone (including him when he left) being happy about the state of things. Get it done right the first time is the way to go, or at the very least, if you are going to start changes, follow through on them soon.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
People will have opinions, or issues, some people will oppose those opinions and despite it people will pursue an opinion to the ends of the earth. I do not find the whole thread harsh, just certain parts of some posts. I don't see Butane getting what he wants and I did not see PvPers getting what they want or even when they wanted it. If I was in anyway insinuating something derogatory to a dev or any member of team then I should suspect that my requests (which may not be the same as most of the player base from what datamining might determine, rather than forums) might end up at the back of the queue.
Buffs are icing because I am not jeopardized without them. Fun happens when you are free of certain things that bother you. Not a lot bothers me so any buffs would be icing.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't see the life and death in it all myself.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.