SS and more aoes
By
BigBlackAfrica,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 07:37 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Pretty much how I feel about the set. My IO'ed SS/Fire Brute lives in AE now. Sure I can kill 54s all day (as I said, using only Rage and FS from SS, the rest are patrons and Fiery Aura).|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I genuinely and strongly dislike the set for that reason. Boring and overpowered don't offset each other, both of them are bad.
If I had my way you could keep foot stomp how it is, maybe reduce the KD chance. Scrap rage and go back to the drawing board on the set's central buff mechanic. I wouldn't want it to be a copy of street justice or titan weapons, but street justice and titan weapons are excellent examples of the new dev strategy of allowing sets to be a bit overpowered but in a way that they internalize and that forces players to consider tradeoffs. There is nothing to consider with SS: take rage, KO blow, FS, and punch as a mule and then supplement with pool powers. Never, ever exemplar below 30. Character complete. |
I have tons more fun with the db/elec scrapper I'm leveling, doing a sweep combo in the middle of 10 mobs is awesome, as is Attack Vitals on 5 mobs.
I can see the appeal especially for Tankers - although it takes forever to get Rage and FS, FootStomp in perma-BU mode (Rage) does 176 damage (Rage single stacked), more than Scrapper's Burst from KM which has a much smaller radius. The longer recharge isn't that important when you can use FS every 6 seconds or so.
SS is a set that's both brokenly good and mediocre. It's propped up by literally two decent attacks and one awesome utility power that makes the set. The set pushes great numbers few can deny, yet, it doesn't dominate because of that. There's no massive skew of people ignoring all other melee attack sets; it's popular, but no more so than one would expect for being so iconic.
In short, to be so bold, everyone agrees it's great, awesome in fact, but I've seen few ever say that it should be anything less. It is the most iconic melee set, and if people are going to crown one melee set "king", why shouldn't it be SS?
That being said, there have been numerous, valid complaints about it over the years.
Hand Clap is extremely situational to the point it's near useless.
Hurl, while being a decent ranged attack, needlessly locks you out of one of the game's four travel powers.
Until you get those three key powers, the set flounders.
The set's animations are terrible, phoned in recycles of weapon attacks. The set feels very slow. For many people, it fails to convey the sense of power it should. It has simply not aged well compared to the new kids on the block StJ and TW, who are much more polished.
Lastly, it commits the cardinal sin of not actually letting you lift anything that's heavy.
In light of everything, unless they're intending to make an animation/effects pass on it (and that's all), I don't want the devs touching SS. If they want to make a new Premium Super Strength set to sell on the market, that's something I'd want to check out and wouldn't oppose happening.
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Nothing's changed, I'm pretty much the same me there ever has been. On the other hand, it's cute that you complain about that post and seem to miss the constructive post what, three posts higher? Short sightedness?
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Dude.
What is wrong with you lately? |
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Nothing's changed, I'm pretty much the same me there ever has been. On the other hand, it's cute that you complain about that post and seem to miss the constructive post what, three posts higher? Short sightedness?
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No, I saw it. But srsly, 1 good and 2 bad so far in this thread? Yeahhhh.....
Padding your post count some more? There's no prize at 100,000.
My comment and point stands. Quit throwin' kerosene at Johnny, it don't do diddly except make you look like a doofus.
Or, well, lemme respond in kind: MORE like a doofus.
See how much fun we're all having being snarky and edgy at each other?
Oh god, I care so much more about how much respect you have for me. Please, if you have any other insights into things I can do to improve my standing in your eyes, I'd really appreciate it if you worked hard to produce as much of that information as possible. I don't know how I'll get through the day without it.
[QUOTE=Johnny_Butane;4078681](Snip)
Hurl, while being a decent ranged attack, needlessly locks you out of one of the game's four travel powers.
(Snip)
The set's animations are terrible, phoned in recycles of weapon attacks. The set feels very slow. For many people, it fails to convey the sense of power it should. It has simply not aged well compared to the new kids on the block StJ and TW, who are much more polished.
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On the first, it doesn't lock you out of them, you can use Fly. HOWEVER if you want a hover tanker/brute, don't pick SS because Hurl and Footstomp won't work while flying. Land first.
Also the set now has alternate animations that looks MUCH better. Jab looks like a Jab, Haymaker looks like a Haymaker, ect. On all my SS toons I change the animations now.
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I have a SS Brute with Fly, but I took Combat Jumping for the exact reason mentioned above. I honestly can't understand why someone would want to make a "hover-tank/brute" in the first place.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
On the first, it doesn't lock you out of them, you can use Fly. HOWEVER if you want a hover tanker/brute, don't pick SS because Hurl and Footstomp won't work while flying. Land first.
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Also the set now has alternate animations that looks MUCH better. Jab looks like a Jab, Haymaker looks like a Haymaker, ect. On all my SS toons I change the animations now.
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Right...because the flying bricks in comics never hover while fighting...|
Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
I have a SS Brute with Fly, but I took Combat Jumping for the exact reason mentioned above. I honestly can't understand why someone would want to make a "hover-tank/brute" in the first place.
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What exactly is so hard to understand?
Nothing is hard to understand. I'm not talking about concept here, just pure pros/cons. As I stated, I have a Flying SS brute, but I choose to take AS because it's pretty much guaranteed knockdown and Hover doesn't really make much sense to me for most melee builds. A melee toon generally gets more out of Combat Jumping than Hover. I think I only have one melee character with Hover (DB/WP Scrapper) and he has it for concept reasons because he's a bird-man with wings. It's not a problem because DB doesn't require him to be on the ground, but incidentally he ALSO has CJ.
Super Strength OTOH has 2 powers which will not work if the character is not on the ground. Considering that the powers are 'ripping up a chunk of earth to toss at someone' and 'stomping your foot/punching the ground and creating a shockwave' I'd say it makes sense.
To the original point. Most "Hover-attacking" is done to mitigate knockback and/or damage by being out of melee range. Not really necessary for a brute/tank. So from a purely numerical/mechanical pov, it makes little sense.
Oh and just for clarification: I've seen a flying Super Strength Brick from comics hovering and fighting, but I've never seen them use Hurl of Foot Stomp while doing so.
I'm not trying to start a "flame-war" here. I just don't understand the seemingly needless hostility of the above post.
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"hostility"...?|
Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
I'm not trying to start a "flame-war" here. I just don't understand the seemingly needless hostility of the above post.
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Really...?
Seeing as how you're the one opposed to the idea of a hovering tank/brute...by definition...means you're the one being hostile here.
Anyways...I was not trying to offend you...as I just did not comprehend you not understanding why someone would want a hovering tank/brute.
I realize now that you were talking purely mechanical...while I was talking conceptual.
You also bring up a good point when you say:
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Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
Super Strength OTOH has 2 powers which will not work if the character is not on the ground. Considering that the powers are 'ripping up a chunk of earth to toss at someone' and 'stomping your foot/punching the ground and creating a shockwave' I'd say it makes sense.
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Let's face it...a high-level SS character without Footstomp is basically absurd when it comes to this games mechanics. Which almost reinforces the point that was originally trying to be made in the OP of Super Strength having more AoE damage powers.
Another good mechanically-speaking point you brought up:
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Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
I think I only have one melee character with Hover (DB/WP Scrapper) and he has it for concept reasons because he's a bird-man with wings. It's not a problem because DB doesn't require him to be on the ground, but incidentally he ALSO has CJ.
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Therefore...arguably helping the original point brought up by the OP of Super Strength having more AoE damage powers.
I may regret this, but for the record: I never said I was opposed to a hovering Tank/Brute, and I stated as much without any hostility intended.
I just don't feel it's necessary for the flying brick concept since Flying =/= Hover. My Power Girl inspired brute does not have Hover and I don't miss it.
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Well, some people want to be able to run both CJ and Hover for the defense.|
Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
I may regret this, but for the record: I never said I was opposed to a hovering Tank/Brute, and I stated as much without any hostility intended.
I just don't feel it's necessary for the flying brick concept since Flying =/= Hover. My Power Girl inspired brute does not have Hover and I don't miss it. |
I would like to have a use for Hover on my SS/Inv because I'd like to be able to get Afterburner and not have to take an inferior attack I'll never slot or use.
During his tenure as power guy, I asked Castle if there was any balance reasons why powers like Foot Stomp and Hurl were blocked from being used in flight/hover. He said no, generally that's not a balance point and that it was purely and aesthetic decision.
I never thought it was fair that a power set had two of it's powers essentially rendered inoperable just because of a travel power choice.
Often I've lobbied to have this changed with no result. We have guns with infinite clips that never need be reloaded. We can be on fire while waist deep in water. We can form large masses of ice from nothing in a volcano mere feet from a lava flow. We can call down a satellite strike on a target that's in the distant past, underground in a cave.
But they can't allow a SS character to just throw a rock when in the air or figure out an alternate animation for Foot Stomp? That's bull.
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Yet they also stop flying to reach into the ground to grab a rock to throw, and to stomp the ground.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Right...because the flying bricks in comics never hover while fighting...
What exactly is so hard to understand? |
Dirges
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Lastly, it commits the cardinal sin of not actually letting you lift anything that's heavy.
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Umm since when is a giant boulder ripped from the ground not heavy?
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If Hurl and Foot Stomp were flagged 'near the ground' instead of 'on ground only', this might be a valid point...|
Originally Posted by Dirges
Yet they also stop flying to reach into the ground to grab a rock to throw, and to stomp the ground.
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If the game also didn't have guns that don't need to be reloaded, large masses of ice forming from nothing (even at 90% humidity there's not enough water in the air) orange flame that burns in the water, ghosts and super powers in general.
You want to suspend disbelief, what's to say my hero didn't zip down to the ground in the blink of an eye and rip up a rock in an instant? What's to say I'm not strong enough to stomp the air and make a shockwave?
Gameplay trumps realism. And in this case, there's a needless limitation in the gameplay with on the ground only powers that should be done away with.
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You call that giant? It's about the size of a patio stone(and less dense if it's asphalt). I can hoist one of those over my head easily. I can't make them curve around corners, though.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
Umm since when is a giant boulder ripped from the ground not heavy?
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The issue is that the devs do not want us to have to suspend our disbelief that high. You cannot make an animation where a guy reaches down into thin air and heaves a boulder out of nothingness by prying against the ether with his mighty legs that does not look like crap. What is he going to do instead? Pull the boulder out of his pocket? The point is they have to make an animation for the power and in this case they cannot make one that is appropriate. The issue is even worse with foot stomp since the power is called foot stomp so making it look like hand clap isn't going to cut it.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You want to suspend disbelief, what's to say my hero didn't zip down to the ground in the blink of an eye and rip up a rock in an instant? What's to say I'm not strong enough to stomp the air and make a shockwave?
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Titan weapons is a set with many of the same issues and you can see why. Its animations look flat out goofy in the air. Arc of destruction only works on the ground because, again, there is no way to plausibly cause damage to someone in front of you by mightily pounding the air between you with a big sword.
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There is only one solution.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The issue is even worse with foot stomp since the power is called foot stomp so making it look like hand clap isn't going to cut it.
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Rename Foot Stomp.
Call it "Super Swat." ...
LOL, ok, all kidding aside: Foot Stomp is stupidly good, and having it limited to ground only helps even it out against other powers. Yes, I see what castle said, but castle said a lot of things, and note that he ain't around any more, either.
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But Super Strength isn't good, Rage is. And AFAIC, having 'rage' (in the thematic sense) has nothing to do with having Super Strength. And yet, Rage is what makes this set *good*...and that makes no sense to me.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
As to the thread topic: Super Strength is good because it is ICONIC. This is a SUPERHERO GAME. You bet your bippy Super Strength is gonna be good. |
It's not like Dark Melee or Kinetic Melee, where their self-buff makes conceptual sense in some fashion, dark absorbs strength from 'souls' or 'life-energy' or what have you and kinetic absorbs force/energy from the foes you hit (or that hit you, as their damage is sapped resulting in weaker attacks) and transfers it to your attacks.
Rage? That's for Brutes, and they get that inherently as Fury. There's other ways to conceptualize having Super Strength without needing to draw off endurance and survivability...it makes little sense.
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Of course you can. We've been pulling swords, guns, arrows, axes, bows and maces out of nothing since day 1.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The issue is that the devs do not want us to have to suspend our disbelief that high. You cannot make an animation where a guy reaches down into thin air and heaves a boulder out of nothingness
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| Titan weapons is a set with many of the same issues and you can see why. Its animations look flat out goofy in the air. |
If you don't want to look goofy in the air, don't use the attacks in the air. I don't care about looking goofy. That's what this game engine does. What I care about is having two attacks taken off the table for no good reason.
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Hulk is pretty much the only reason I can come up with. Occasionally, the guy with the 'S' gets mad and hits extra hard, but that's more like Build Up, don't you think?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But Super Strength isn't good, Rage is. And AFAIC, having 'rage' (in the thematic sense) has nothing to do with having Super Strength. And yet, Rage is what makes this set *good*...and that makes no sense to me.
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Rage isn't even how I'd model rage. To me, rage would be a massive damage buff that also gave you a penalty to accuracy or something. You know, just swinging blindly. But it would be like Domination where it just build and builds until you just snap and let it out.
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What is wrong with you lately?
Be constructive.
As to the thread topic: Super Strength is good because it is ICONIC.
This is a SUPERHERO GAME. You bet your bippy Super Strength is gonna be good. There are other super hero genre games out there, and in ALL of them, Super Strength freakin' rocks socks.
It's expected.
That said, it's unlikely to get too much better.