How Would YOU Have Written Statesman?


80sBaby

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I get that the game is limited in what it can do, but this is where involving these guys in storylines would have been nice. And I mean storylines that don't end up with them dead, depowered or humiliated.
Or "helping" you defeat something they really should have been able to wipe the floor with, but can't because they're demoted to pet class so as not to overshadow you, which, if you're playing an IOd out character, results in you being far more powerful than the Freedom Phalanx.

Remember the old Posi TF, where the last mission was you creating a diversion so the Phalanx could deal with the real threat? They should have had missions where it was the other way around. Why not have States distract uber-buffed Recluse while we take out his towers and weaken him, then, because States is too beaten up, take him out? Or have Posi working to stabilize the Terra Volta reactor in the respec trial, and we have to protect him while he works? Have missions where we're working alongside them and they're doing something that gives a sense of their character, rather than "another unhelpful NPC helper with a braindead AI."

But as for how I would specifically have written Statesman? I wouldn't have made him into the hero, just our hero. I like the idea upthread of having him greet new heroes. I would have made him more personable; maybe it's all just a superficial show he puts on for young heroes and really all distant because all his friends keep dying, but it would leave players with a good first impression of the character, that could be built on later, rather than seeing him as an arrogant jerk who thinks he's better than you and that nobody cares to learn more about.

I wouldn't have made him the big all-powerful uber-hero of the world, and certainly not of the multi-verse. I would have kept Praetoria as a one-shot gag, the Reichsmann TFs never would have existed, and I would eliminate every single bit of lore around Cimerora, up to and including Imperious himself. I'd change the ITF to "click here to fight mobs" if need be, just to get rid of that mess. I would rewrite the RSF to have you do something so bad the Freedom Phalanx has to show up to stop you, rather than you helping Recluse settle a grudge with his ex. And I would have him respec out of Handclap.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I generally wouldn't want these guys involved in my characters' storylines. On the other hand, I think it'd be neat if we got some story arcs where we got to play *as* the signature characters in their storylines. The SSAs would've been a good place for that sort of thing.
I wouldn't so much want them involved in my storylines, which Statesman most definitely is. It's more like I'm Batman, States is Superman, and eventually there is a shared storyline in which we team up. As it stands in-game though, all of Batman's storylines are secondary to Superman's, and it feels like Batman only gets to do the stuff that Superman considers beneath him.

It's sad, but the Rogues Gallery characters, who are heroes and villains just like us, have more personality than the Freedom Phalanx. They really should have treated them like heroes just like us, only with more experience, rather than putting them up on this pedestal of "we're just plain better than you."


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I generally wouldn't want these guys involved in my characters' storylines.
Which is not what I said. Involving him in storylines in the game doesn't mean involving him in YOUR storyline, or mine or anybody else's. There's enough room in the game for us to tell our own stories and the writers to tell their own alongside.

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Remember the old Posi TF, where the last mission was you creating a diversion so the Phalanx could deal with the real threat? They should have had missions where it was the other way around. Why not have States distract uber-buffed Recluse while we take out his towers and weaken him, then, because States is too beaten up, take him out? Or have Posi working to stabilize the Terra Volta reactor in the respec trial, and we have to protect him while he works? Have missions where we're working alongside them and they're doing something that gives a sense of their character, rather than "another unhelpful NPC helper with a braindead AI."
This is a very, very good idea. That's actually what I do when I end up writing overpowered Mary Sue characters, myself. Samuel Tow, my namesake, is probably the worst example of the bunch, to the point where I generally use him as a deus ex machina and not much else. Storylines I involve him with revolve around why Sam can't intervene and solve everyone's problems by himself. Maybe he's trapped in another dimension, maybe he's locked inside his own mind, maybe he's feeling emo at the time and just doesn't feel like it, but the point is he CAN'T, and the story is either about finding a way to get him to help out or otherwise find an alternative.

I like the idea of involving signature characters of great power in earlier arcs, myself. That way, you can tell arcs of a much bigger story than characters of that level really deserve, because a signature character is being used as deus ex machina to handle most of the heavy lifting, yet still not overshadow player characters because said signature character is too hard-pressed to do much else. Posi struggling to keep the Terra Volta reactor from blowing up and us having to protect HIM as opposed to the reactor is so inspired I'm actually jealous for not thinking of it, myself.

The bottom line is that we need more interaction with these characters from an earlier level.

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
But as for how I would specifically have written Statesman? I wouldn't have made him into the hero, just our hero. I like the idea upthread of having him greet new heroes. I would have made him more personable; maybe it's all just a superficial show he puts on for young heroes and really all distant because all his friends keep dying, but it would leave players with a good first impression of the character, that could be built on later, rather than seeing him as an arrogant jerk who thinks he's better than you and that nobody cares to learn more about.
That's really the biggest mistake, I think. In the original game, the Statesman is actually nowhere in it. He shows up all of ONE time, he's a level 54 Archvillain who "helps" you by one-shotting everything for 5000+ points of damage per punch, and he comes off more like a myth than a man. I'm sure Jack Emmert's original vision for the Statesman was just that - he's so powerful and magnificent that he has to be "saved" such that people would feel it's "special" when they finally meet him right at the end of the game. But all this does is turn a man into an icon, and begs the question - how am I supposed to care when he dies?

Not showing up much is great build-up for a villain. The more you use a villain, the less threatening he becomes, so saving your big villains until right at the end is a good idea. This makes them feel stranger, more menacing and more important. You've fought so many bad people, but you hear the big bad is stronger and much worse. But you don't know, because you have never seen him. Until that one time you do, and you don't know what to expect because you've never fought anything like him. You haven't had the chance to learn about any of his weaknesses. That's why, to this day, Recluse still works as a big bad, and also why none of the Praetorian AVs do. When you're exposed to their petty bickering since level 1 and have already shown most of them up by level 20 (and in the case of Maelstron, kicked his shapely *** countless times and reduced him into a joke), they lose their threat and intimidation qualities. They become the quirky miniboss squad of goons the heroes consistently and soundly best from time to time.

That said, this kind of exclusivity and reclusivity may be good for a villain, but it's NOT good for a hero. Villains we're supposed to respect. Heroes we're supposed to like, and for a hero to be likeable, he needs to be familiar to us. We need to know that this hero cares, that this hero will help us, that every time we're in need, this hero will help out. This is why Sefu Tendaji is so likeable: Not only is he a really nice guy, he actually does a lot to help us in our missions. He provides information on multiple occasions, helps us in combat and even when he's forced to oppose us, he still does so with dignity and respect. He's likeable because we know him. And we know jack squat about the Statesman, other than he took a nuke to the back of the head that one time. It's impossible to care about such a person who does nothing, shows up nowhere, says nothing and we only know he exists because he's on the box art.

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
I wouldn't have made him the big all-powerful uber-hero of the world, and certainly not of the multi-verse. I would have kept Praetoria as a one-shot gag, the Reichsmann TFs never would have existed, and I would eliminate every single bit of lore around Cimerora, up to and including Imperious himself. I'd change the ITF to "click here to fight mobs" if need be, just to get rid of that mess. I would rewrite the RSF to have you do something so bad the Freedom Phalanx has to show up to stop you, rather than you helping Recluse settle a grudge with his ex. And I would have him respec out of Handclap.
And then there's this. One of the reasons people hate the Statesman is because not only is he "the greatest" hero of our whole world, the multiverse is full of his clones and his boyfriends. Reichsman, Imperious and Tyrant are some of our premier bad guys, and they're all Statesman clones, and while Recluse isn't his clone, he spends so much time obsessing over the Statesman I get the impression he wants to get into his pants. It's all about the Statesman, and that really gets tiring after a while. Everything in the late game - that is to say, all of the biggest stuff - has to do with the Statesman, at least by proxy. I wouldn't be surprised if it's revealed Marcus inherited the Sharingan at some point.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
I'd say one of the problems is that some of the devs seem to have their own ax to grind on Statesman and likely Jack Emmert himself. So when the player base began making cracks about him, the Devs began including the jokes in-game making his character just that much worse.

I'd say let folks like Troy, BlueBattler, and Samuraiko write him to start.
*grins*

You just liked it that I had a petite little superheroine call him a wuss in front of the creme de la creme of Paragon City at a charity ball because he wouldn't dance with her.

But thanks for the faith!

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Which is not what I said. Involving him in storylines in the game doesn't mean involving him in YOUR storyline, or mine or anybody else's. There's enough room in the game for us to tell our own stories and the writers to tell their own alongside.
Unless you're suggesting that they somehow only manage to show up in missions my characters (or yours, or anybody else's) never do, then you are, in fact, suggesting they're involved in said storylines.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Unless you're suggesting that they somehow only manage to show up in missions my characters (or yours, or anybody else's) never do, then you are, in fact, suggesting they're involved in said storylines.
That's only if you consider every mission you do to be part of your character's storyline. I can see how you might, but I strongly disagree. I don't consider any of my characters to be members of the midnight squad, but I want access to Comerora, so I run the mission on all of them.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
That's a big part of it, too. I still remember Matt Miller's "in-character" explanation for why Positron just stands idly by and watches newbeis getting their ***** kicked in his square: "All that crap's grey to me. No XP." To the man's credit, it was witty and it was the best he could do with the game's limited engine of interaction, but that sort of feeling like we're not worth the bother for the signature NPCs even when we're fighting for our lives at their feet is a big problem. I get that the game is limited in what it can do, but this is where involving these guys in storylines would have been nice. And I mean storylines that don't end up with them dead, depowered or humiliated.
I wondered about the same thing when doing the high level Crey arc on a character a while ago. Why aren't I involving Synapse in this? I mean, show him the warrant for the Countess' arrest and tell him she's running and you need someone fast to cut her off. He'd be glad to get the chance to settle things. As the Origin of Power arc shows, he carries one nasty, and justified, grudge against her.

I suppose the signature arcs are a way of doing some of this, but the heroes haven't really had a good showing this arc so far. Add to that that they're collectively sitting the Incarnate system out (seriously, what's up with that? Why AREN'T any of the NPC heroes OR villains doing this?) and the signature characters are largely irrelevant. Perhaps except for the Arachnos Patrons, but that's because there are arcs dealing directly with them.

As for Statesman himself, I'd probably have done a "cool grandpa with superpowers" thing with him. He's old, he has a ton of battles behind him, but he's still physically in his prime and fighting the good fight. But he's getting burned out mentally. He beats evil, and evil comes back. So after the Rikti War, he finally puts out the call. Not just for new heroes to appear, but for the new generation to step up, and hopefully, find someone who can take Statesman's place so he can get a little well earned rest, possibly training new heroes. Really that should be Statesman's character arc. Wanting to retire, but not seeing anyone else capable of keeping the world safe from evil. So he keeps fighting, even if he's just going through the motions.

He'd have a ton of cool stories of past battles with supervillains and major world events as he was there. I mean, who else can you ask what it's like getting nuked?


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

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Let's see if I can get this into words.

Marcus Cole is a man out of time. When he got his powers from the Well of the Furies, it was 1923 (?) and the world was a much different place then. The world had barely begun to recover from the Great War, and the rumblings that would lead to the second were only just starting. In some ways, Good and Evil were a bit more cleanly defined, and it was very easy for Marcus Cole to know how to devote his energies to fight for Good.

Times change. Marcus Cole watches a man who was his friend become a bitter enemy. Society explodes in revolutions and counter revolutions and movements and social disorder and an almost complete rewrite of what right and wrong are. In the middle of all that, Marcus cole is driven by his own Moral code to keep doing the right thing.

Old generations of heroes die, New heroes are born and Statesman now feels increasingly out of touch. He still is driven to fight evil, but it's less obvious what Evil might be these days. He feels lost. The few times that things become clear again, say giant meteors from space and alien invasions, he knows exactly what to do but, otherwise, younger generations of heroes see him as a museum piece. Too rigid and inflexible in his morality. Invulnerable, Undefeatable, Dull, boring. Sure it's nice to have him around when the Rikti come to call, but he's a bit of an embarassment.

"We can take care of Nemesis," they tell him "and the council, and Arachnos, you know ALL OF THE PEOPLE YOU COULDNT GET RID OF"

Just to make this even more complicated, the Well that gave him his powers in the first place is getting more and more... pushy. it's getting harder to resist its demands.

He has a major conflict. He wants to keep fighting for good but he's tired. The well wants to use him but he doesn't want to let it. The world doesn't really want him around anymore but refuses to let him go.

He wants to end it all but he's not sure he can.



I think thats how I would present the character.


Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I like the idea of involving signature characters of great power in earlier arcs, myself. That way, you can tell arcs of a much bigger story than characters of that level really deserve, because a signature character is being used as deus ex machina to handle most of the heavy lifting, yet still not overshadow player characters because said signature character is too hard-pressed to do much else. Posi struggling to keep the Terra Volta reactor from blowing up and us having to protect HIM as opposed to the reactor is so inspired I'm actually jealous for not thinking of it, myself.
I actually just had an idea to make it better. Since even the stupidest hero is capable of understanding how to operate complex machinery, we should be able to help him. However, doing so alerts the Sky Raiders/Freakshow/Rikti and causes them to step up their assault, using a similar mechanic to the MoM trial to take time off the timer. Voila, we have the "hurry up and send the next ambush" button that so many people want.

The big thing though, is that each signature hero has their specialty. They also have a reputation that, at lower levels, we haven't earned yet. They should be doing tasks that play to that, instead of "well he can't fight just because." In order for us not to be overshadowed, they have to actually need us. And most importantly, by the time we hit 50 we should be treated as their equals, not the B-listers we currently are.


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Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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Posted

People keep bringing up "Statesman the arrogant 'dick'".

That Statesman only ever existed in comic issue seven. Perez or whoever wrote that arc wrote him as "drill seargent Statesman". He was even drawn as some kind of middle-aged military drill seargent, in comparison to how he was drawn both before and afterwards. Despite it being only one story arc (in a comic that quickly became "the Manticore and friends show" anyway), that's the arc that seems to stick with people who love to hate Statesman.

If there are other explicit examples of this supposed arrogance, I'd like to know where they are. There are a lot of people who can't stand the idea of Jack Emmert's Mary Sue being the signature hero of the game and there are a lot more who can't stand the idea of there being ANY NPC hero who is bigger than their own heroes. As far as I can tell, that's where 90% of the Statesman Hate comes from. There certainly aren't (m)any such examples within the game itself.

If I was to change anything, looking back, I'd have done pretty similarly to what Sam (I think it was Sam) was talking about: Involve him early and continue to involve him as a mentor and make him someone the player could come to trust and count on rather than a distant paragon of virtue or put on a pedestal as an ideal to aspire to.


 

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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog View Post
Let's see if I can get this into words.

Marcus Cole is a man out of time. When he got his powers from the Well of the Furies, it was 1923 (?) and the world was a much different place then. The world had barely begun to recover from the Great War, and the rumblings that would lead to the second were only just starting. In some ways, Good and Evil were a bit more cleanly defined, and it was very easy for Marcus Cole to know how to devote his energies to fight for Good.

Times change. Marcus Cole watches a man who was his friend become a bitter enemy. Society explodes in revolutions and counter revolutions and movements and social disorder and an almost complete rewrite of what right and wrong are. In the middle of all that, Marcus cole is driven by his own Moral code to keep doing the right thing.

Old generations of heroes die, New heroes are born and Statesman now feels increasingly out of touch. He still is driven to fight evil, but it's less obvious what Evil might be these days. He feels lost. The few times that things become clear again, say giant meteors from space and alien invasions, he knows exactly what to do but, otherwise, younger generations of heroes see him as a museum piece. Too rigid and inflexible in his morality. Invulnerable, Undefeatable, Dull, boring. Sure it's nice to have him around when the Rikti come to call, but he's a bit of an embarassment.

"We can take care of Nemesis," they tell him "and the council, and Arachnos, you know ALL OF THE PEOPLE YOU COULDNT GET RID OF"

Just to make this even more complicated, the Well that gave him his powers in the first place is getting more and more... pushy. it's getting harder to resist its demands.

He has a major conflict. He wants to keep fighting for good but he's tired. The well wants to use him but he doesn't want to let it. The world doesn't really want him around anymore but refuses to let him go.

He wants to end it all but he's not sure he can.



I think thats how I would present the character.
Are you a mind reader? O.o

That's exactly how I'd write him as well. The world around him has changed so much, the people he's loved have grown old and/or died. The full weight of immortality (such as it may be for an Incarnate) has begun to wear him down. What may appear to be arrogance, aloofness, and hostility might just actually be the realization of the price he paid for becoming the champion of so many, so long ago.


Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."

 

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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog View Post
Invulnerable, Undefeatable, Dull, boring.
This is exactly how I perceive Statesman, and why I dislike him.

Now, that's not a reason for wanting him dead (I would have preferred Ms. Liberty, to be honest), and I'm not particularly moved by his demise either way. I really don't care about him being alive or dead, as long as he doesn't cross my path.

That said, I enjoyed immensely dinging 50 in the last mission of LRSF as he was defeated and the mission completed. I might have laughed a bit over his body... but I digress.

The problem with being the world's greatest superhero is that you're not only invulnerable and undefeatable; you're also dull and boring. I enjoyed immensely when Emperor Cole was this grey character that did what he did, no matter how horrible his sleep-induced mind-slave utopia was, to save mankind (then the story moved on and he became this inter-dimensional super-foe that didn't even have Na'Zi parafernalia to make him a cartoon supervillain; kind of boring of the other kind) - and that is a kind of Statesman that I would enjoy. And by the way, don't take that literally. I don't want a primal Earth Emperor Cole, I want a human character that is not dull, that is troubled, that has human weaknesses.

I think that Frank Miller nailed Batman for me in The Dark Knight Returns. "Of course we're criminals" laughs Batman in the congressional hearings. "We don't have any other choice." And there's a double meaning to that: not only does he have to break the law to uphold the spirit of it; there is also the fact that no other course of action occurs to him. He doesn't have any other choice, he is driven to do what he does. He can overcome anyone he's up against, even Superman. There is only one exception: himself. And when he tries, he becomes a broken man brooding in his mansion or seeking death on the race track, lesser than himself.

It's that human dimension that I completely lack in Statesman. And as long as he doesn't have them, I care about his death about as much as I care about the numerous times that Superman has been presumed dead.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

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This, I think, is a question that's going to be raised time and again regarding any character who is seen as one of the following:

Old school 'four color' hero

A patriotically-themed and idealist

A 'Mary Sue' who can apparently do everything and anything others can't

Apparently arrogant and with no redeeming features


The first thing I'd do to write the character is that I would expressly make a disclaimer that Statesman, Marcus Cole, is not in any way representative in personality, demeanor and general character that of Jack Emmert. This is a dead weight hung (and I would argue unfairly) upon the character by a figure that by the measure of the meta-story of the game and its canon does not exist in the universe. I can appreciate there is a great deal of negative feeling towards Mr. Emmert, but he is not Marcus Cole and he is not Statesman the fictional character. This is an utterly necessary seperation of real person and character that needs to happen in my opinion before anything else.

Perhaps some people are bitter and unwilling to let go of their resentment of Mr. Emmert and project that onto Statesman. And that's fine, I'm not going to insist that they do, nor would I as a writer insist that they 'like Statesman because I say so'. But to write a disclaimer and to simply air and acknowledge that grievance I think is critical.

So, to the character himself: a lot of patriotically-themed heroes aren't popular in a world of 2012 where morality is measured in shades of grey and nationality can be as much a rallying point of fanatacism as it can be nationalism...and sometimes they can be one in the same. So the first step would be to address just who Marcus Cole is. A man seeking to avoid a horrible death by mustard gas poisoning. Is he a coward, seeking to cheat death? Is he power-hungry? If we go by the other Marcus Coles, perhaps...but when he does gain the power, he voluntarily focuses his abilities to the service of others. No other Marcus Cole that we know of has done that, so we can mark this as a point in his favor.

Marcus Cole is a patriot and a fair-minded man. He's not stepping in to voice his opinion about politics or anything else until the 1970's, when he declares the Phalanx above world politics. This is forty years after his debut as a superhero. That's remarkable restraint, but it also speaks of frustration after seeing a world war, the threat of nuclear war and yet humanity seems incapable of learning from sending itself to the brink of extinction.

Combine this with his 'natural' attributes of being the Avatar of Zeus (who was indeed a haughty, arrogant and often self-serving god) and you have a wonderful conflict between Marcus Cole the man and Marcus Cole the Avatar of Zeus. I would write him as someone who has been pushed a lot more towards being the Avatar after the death of his wife (and I have written so in my own AE arc) because one of his key anchors to being truly empathic to humanity has died. I don't think that can be stressed enough. It also plays against the Mary Sue a lot; he can do a lot of things, but the one thing he would want to do more than anything, save his wife from death, he could not do. I can only think that would eat at him even now.

Statesman as I would write him would be the 'wary god'. Not only has he lived the heights of being a great figure, he's also seen the downsides. Not only embodied in Stephan Richter, but the borderline actions of his own granddaughter, Manticore, and even himself when the Avatar tries to manifest itself fully.

Whilst I wouldn't write him as being the first hero you'd meet in the game, I would write him at the end of the initial Atlas Park arc to thank the hero personally. He's had his hands massively full having driven back Recluse and trying to stabilise Galaxy City. Someone had to step into that breach, and it was the player character. If anyone is going to know the trials and tribulations that lie ahead, it's going to be him. I'd give him some mentoring lines, a reassuring word. I think something like:

'I'll let you in on a little secret: when I first started out, I was making it up as I went too. Trust in yourself, trust in the heroes around you. I do.'

That element of Zeus we often neglect, the caring father of his children, I think applies here. I think Statesman (even though it's not said) thinks of all the heroes are 'his' children. He is almost literally the wellspring from which they flow. And he wants to see his 'children' do well.

I often draw the parallel between Statesman and the British character Doctor Who, because they share a tremendous number of character traits, up to and including being a godlike figure who is as equally feared and reviled as he is admired. The irony is never lost on me when the Doctor is referred to as 'The Coming Storm'...he can be capricous, dangerous, devious, enigmatic, wonderous, magical, loveable, worshipped, and even deified.

But I bet both characters would tell you they fall far short of being any of those things.

There's a great passage in one of the shows that I think is as much Statesman as anything I've heard (paraphrasing mine):

'I've seen him; he's like fire and ice and rage.

He's like the night and the heart of the storm in the sun.

He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and can see the turn of the universe.

And...he's wonderful.

He has saved your lives so many times and you never even knew he was there.

He never stops; he never stays.

He never asks to be thanked.

But I've seen him.

I know him.

I love him.

His name....is Statesman.'

I hope what I've written here in my ramblings is how I'd write Statesman. Because of what I did write, that Statesman, my Statesman is in my head and I would give my right arm to put him in a medium where I could show everyone my vision of him. Maybe I still will.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater View Post
Are you a mind reader? O.o

That's exactly how I'd write him as well. The world around him has changed so much, the people he's loved have grown old and/or died. The full weight of immortality (such as it may be for an Incarnate) has begun to wear him down. What may appear to be arrogance, aloofness, and hostility might just actually be the realization of the price he paid for becoming the champion of so many, so long ago.

I'm right there with both of you. The years of constant battle and conflict can wear on any man, but with immortality, you tend to have little patience in situations where you've been-there-and-done-that.


"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

Posted

It might be interesting to explore the whole issue of immortality and how different people handle it. While I understood where Robin Laws was going with his novel, I think it's a mistake to continue to project that onto Statesman as if it's some kind of angst that he'll never be able to fully conquer.

At some point, you either come terms with it or you destroy yourself. Statesman appeared to come to terms with it at the end of the novel and that ought to be the end of the story for the most part.

It's not as if he has no peer group to look to for support about these issues.

Lady Grey appears to be a fellow Incarnate and she is possibly even older than he is.

Dark Watcher is his contemporary. Personality conflicts aside, the Statesman and the Watcher should be able to talk to each other about the emotional issues that occur when you outlive everyone you care about.

Sister Psyche is a fellow old person in a young person's body, and she's a close friend to boot. It's likely that Marcus still thinks of Shalice as a child in his own mind, with that impression compounded by her own apparent youth. Despite that, she ought to be able to reach him on levels that others might not, given her psychic abilities and her position as a trusted team member.

I feel like I'm forgetting a couple of the "ageless" crowd; I'm pretty sure that there are some around. He's not alone in his immortality. There are people who could be a support group for someone like Marcus.

I could see an interesting story seed in Statesman getting into a debate about immortality with Nemesis.


Not that any of this matters any more.


 

Posted

Well, to expand a bit on myself here, I also know what I would like to see happen with Statesman.

He dies. No, really, flatline on the brainscan and everything.

In the afterlife, before being sent on to the great whatever, the spirit of the well speaks to him and tells him how disappointed it is in him. Then, it leaves but, before States can finally relax, he's brought back to life.

I know, very comics cliche but don't we all kind of expect this by now?

Here's the practical point of all of this. Stateman comes back as a highly experienced, very powerful hero but NOT a walking god. That's right, he has lost all contact with the well and is no longer an incarnate.

He gets to pick up his life again. He's starting to age again, but only because the 'pause' button has been switched off. He now knows that he can and, eventually, will die and that gives him a bit more spark, a bit more motivation to leave the world a better place before he goes.

He gets more involved with the modern world and the heroes in it, in fact, he takes it upon himself to try and teach the basics to the newest heroes.

To sum up, He becomes a normal lv 50 and becomes the first contact in either a revised tutorial, or a new set of arcs in Atlas that replace both Matthew and Twinshot.

Oh, just so people know, I joined the game after Jack Emmert left so I have no personal animosity for the man (he's never done me wrong.) I've never really hated Statesman either. It's just the character was always a bit.... blah.


Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
So, to the character himself: a lot of patriotically-themed heroes aren't popular in a world of 2012 where morality is measured in shades of grey and nationality can be as much a rallying point of fanatacism as it can be nationalism...and sometimes they can be one in the same.
They're also not that popular with people who aren't American. When you make the world's most powerful hero so much an American hero, you're making certain implications that some non-American players don't appreciate. It's ok if said hero is more Dr. Manhattan than Superman though, because Dr. Manhattan is not set up as someone to unquestioningly emulate and look up to...so can you blame the players for pointing out Statesman's Dr. Manhattanesque aspects, and resenting the devs for expecting us to treat him like Superman despite them?


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
They're also not that popular with people who aren't American. When you make the world's most powerful hero so much an American hero, you're making certain implications that some non-American players don't appreciate. It's ok if said hero is more Dr. Manhattan than Superman though, because Dr. Manhattan is not set up as someone to unquestioningly emulate and look up to...so can you blame the players for pointing out Statesman's Dr. Manhattanesque aspects, and resenting the devs for expecting us to treat him like Superman despite them?
Not for a moment.

But I respectfully disagree that he's been painted as being similar to Dr. Manhattan. And I am also aware that you've commented several times in many threads your dislike for the character. All I offered in my post was how I would write him differently.

What I appreciate in the character (his representation of the best of ideals of his nation of birth, a desire to serve, and above all to live up to his name as a statesman for his country and his kind) is what I personally see in him. That's not to say I don't take on board the negative criticisms of him, more that I can see those problems but choose to take him as a positive character instead.


S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
People keep bringing up "Statesman the arrogant 'dick'".

That Statesman only ever existed in comic issue seven.
I didn't read the comics. Statesman still formed an impression with me of being an arrogant, aloof jerk.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
They're also not that popular with people who aren't American. When you make the world's most powerful hero so much an American hero, you're making certain implications that some non-American players don't appreciate. It's ok if said hero is more Dr. Manhattan than Superman though, because Dr. Manhattan is not set up as someone to unquestioningly emulate and look up to...so can you blame the players for pointing out Statesman's Dr. Manhattanesque aspects, and resenting the devs for expecting us to treat him like Superman despite them?
I remember back in the day when the developers introduced the "Patriot" badge, where you had to stand next to the American flag on the roof of City Hall. That... Didn't go over well, and to be fair, I wasn't a big fan of it, myself. I generally have a problem with American heroes and leadership automatically being expanded as being heroes and leaders "of the free world."

The badge in question was changed to say that the flag at the top of City Hall wasn't just an American flag, but the Statesman's old cape, and by standing next to it, we are honouring his good deeds. To be fair, the man has indeed done a lot of good, and I personally don't have a problem with the badge. The old "Patriot" badge was moved indoors, next to the statue of some heroine who was made a citizen of every nation in the world, therefore by being a patriot, you're being a patriot for the entire world. It's a very obvious compromise, but it's well-handled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
How Would YOU Have Written Statesman?
I would have started out, "Dear Statesman, How are you? I am fine..."

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I remember back in the day when the developers introduced the "Patriot" badge, where you had to stand next to the American flag on the roof of City Hall. That... Didn't go over well, and to be fair, I wasn't a big fan of it, myself. I generally have a problem with American heroes and leadership automatically being expanded as being heroes and leaders "of the free world."

The badge in question was changed to say that the flag at the top of City Hall wasn't just an American flag, but the Statesman's old cape, and by standing next to it, we are honouring his good deeds. To be fair, the man has indeed done a lot of good, and I personally don't have a problem with the badge. The old "Patriot" badge was moved indoors, next to the statue of some heroine who was made a citizen of every nation in the world, therefore by being a patriot, you're being a patriot for the entire world. It's a very obvious compromise, but it's well-handled.
I find that kind of ill will rather silly, myself. As I understand it, Paragon City is on the east coast of the U.S. - if it were set in France, I certainly wouldn't get upset over a 'Patriot' badge set next to France's flag.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I didn't read the comics. Statesman still formed an impression with me of being an arrogant, aloof jerk.
Is there a particular reason why? I can't think of any dialog in the game that is written like that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I find that kind of ill will rather silly, myself. As I understand it, Paragon City is on the east coast of the U.S. - if it were set in France, I certainly wouldn't get upset over a 'Patriot' badge set next to France's flag.
It's not necessary, is what I'm saying. The way they shuffled them around is just about equivalent without being as specific.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
Is there a particular reason why? I can't think of any dialog in the game that is written like that.
Honestly, I couldn't tell you how the impression was initially formed. I don't have a mental catalogue of everything I've read in the game. But even his recent actions in the SSA struck me as having the same aloofness that Superman showed in Kingdom Come.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound