Momentum Mechanic
By
Ardrea,
Posted on: 2011-12-15 14:08 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
It would be nice for snipes to be less terrible, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Momentum and the upcoming AS change do different animations under different conditions (Momentum/no Momentum, Hidden/not Hidden). What would the condition be for Snipes?
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After an attack the snipe becomes a quicker activation attack. I dont know what you would call it, but it could work the like momentum. Every time you do a non snipe attack, your snipe will activate faster for the next 2~3 seconds (with modified damage). |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It would be nice for snipes to be less terrible, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Momentum and the upcoming AS change do different animations under different conditions (Momentum/no Momentum, Hidden/not Hidden). What would the condition be for Snipes?
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I don't have a single character with snipe, but if this happened it would be worth picking one up.
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Detailed preliminary thought:|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It would be nice for snipes to be less terrible, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Momentum and the upcoming AS change do different animations under different conditions (Momentum/no Momentum, Hidden/not Hidden). What would the condition be for Snipes?
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Default: Snipe power surrounded by red ring (visual on power tray)
Enter Combat: Red ring goes away, Accuracy and Damage Debuff to Snipe, becomes uninterruptable and instant attack (it's either off or on, nothing too complex)
Return to Default: 4(?) seconds out of combat, red snipe ring reactivates
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I could get behind this. I've always disliked snipes because they're terrible to use once combat has begun in most situations.
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Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Detailed preliminary thought:
Default: Snipe power surrounded by red ring (visual on power tray) Enter Combat: Red ring goes away, Accuracy and Damage Debuff to Snipe, becomes uninterruptable and instant attack (it's either off or on, nothing too complex) Return to Default: 4(?) seconds out of combat, red snipe ring reactivates |
Well, not all snipes are horrible. I can frequently get the archery snipe off mid-combat even when under fire. Otherwise, yeah they are frequently not the best power choice.
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You want to fix snipes? Triple the base damage, quadruple the recharge and poof it's fixed. With proper slotting it will take out a lieutenant in one shot and it could be used once per spawn. That would make it useful.
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Hrmm Milady and Supa are going in different directions with this...I like. I admit I like Supa's Idea better...it seems like it would be very useful during team play or solo.
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In combat/out of combat, I imagine. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It would be nice for snipes to be less terrible, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Momentum and the upcoming AS change do different animations under different conditions (Momentum/no Momentum, Hidden/not Hidden). What would the condition be for Snipes?
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I don't see it happening though.
Why would a snipe become faster in combat though, thematically? It works for assassin's strike pretty well, and calling the new mechanic "assassin's focus" really cements what they're trying to imply. I can't think of any examples of someone pulling out a sniper rifle in the middle of a brawl for an extra quick shot in fiction (or real life). Well, yes I can, Counterstrike 1.6, but I'm not sure that's an appropriate image to evoke in CoH.
I like MK's idea. Focus on the strengths of snipes by making them even more unwieldy and powerful. I actually do have a snipe on my old, no longer played stalker and basically it was useful for taking out an Immunes engineer or surgeon in one hit before going for a spawn. That kind of thing. Why should it only work on minions, though? Maybe back under Jack's old vision for the game lieutenants were meant to be non-trivial threats to players but at this point they simply aren't, and stalkers can already one-shot them with assassin's strike in the first place in much less time than the snipe takes. If anything the fact that the snipe is long range is a penalty for stalkers because it means that if you had hit build up before sniping, even if you could fire off another attack before it wore off you won't actually be able to since you're so far away. It seems like it'd take a lot more than tripled damage to make stalker snipes overpowered.
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I'm with you, as long as "modified damage" means substantially lower damage.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
After an attack the snipe becomes a quicker activation attack. I dont know what you would call it, but it could work the like momentum. Every time you do a non snipe attack, your snipe will activate faster for the next 2~3 seconds (with modified damage).
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Sniper rifles are used at extreme range, taking into consideration windage and other environmental factors, with long aiming times to make sure that the attack hits a critical spot such as the head or heart.
Gunfire becomes much less accurate immediately after another shot due to recoil. Less accurate means less damage because you're hitting a less vulnerable spot on the target.
Instead of modeling this after Momentum, it would make more sense to model it after the proposed change to Assassin's Strike. A snipe initiated in combat would have no interrupt time, but its damage would be one third the damage done when aiming (the interruptible part of casting), putting it in line with the Tier 1 attack.
For example, Archery's Ranged Shot does 172.7 damage at level 50, with a 4.88 sec casting time and 3 sec. interrupt time. Archery's Snap Shot does 52.55 damage with a 1.19 sec casting time. Using Ranged Shot in combat would therefore do 57.6 damage with a 1.88 casting time.
This would make me much more likely to take snipes, because they could be used in combat. Such a change would be especially beneficial in Electrical Blast, for example, because it has so many utility powers and no shorter-range hard-hitting blasts like Power Burst or Bitter Ice Blast.
The tricky part is defining what "in combat" means. The mechanic for Assassin's Strike is easily defined: outside of Hide, you do less damage. The problem with snipes is determining whether you want to take the time to aim carefully to get the extra damage. Forcing a character to wait some amount of time before initiating a full-damage snipe in combat would substantially change the way existing characters play and should be avoided.
How would that make you want to use it in combat? It would be worse than any stalker's tier 1 attack but cost a lot more endurance. Would you aim it at the guy standing next to you or would you use it to give a paper cut to a minion two spawns away? All this proposal would do is make snipes suck in two ways rather than just one.
Edit: Duh, this thread isn't just about stalker snipes! My mistake. However I still don't see why blasters would be any more likely to use sniper attacks if they were like sub-par tier 1s!
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I like this idea. But, why not add to it a little: If the snipe kills the target, hit the local surrounding enemies with a Terrify effect.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You want to fix snipes? Triple the base damage, quadruple the recharge and poof it's fixed. With proper slotting it will take out a lieutenant in one shot and it could be used once per spawn. That would make it useful.
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Why not combine the two? Out of combat, it does double/triple damage what they do now.
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I agree with JayboH on this. |
Originally Posted by JayboH
Why not combine the two? Out of combat, it does double/triple damage what they do now.
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ED broke snipe attack functionality, and it has never been revisited. When it used to get 6 slots of dmg SO's, it had a lot of use as an opener to a fight. Now, not so much. I still use them on a few solo blasters I have and only then if there is a mob in the spawn that gives me a moments pause, but the power gets parked if i join a team.
And electrical blast needs hella more help then "another tier one" attack. I would make snipes act like a tier two at least. Elec blast specifically: make tesla cage like abyssal gaze, make VS a longer duration, and give it a lower mag tesla cage, lightning field, and static discharge to go along with its current single blast. but thats not really on topic.
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...by the way, we are talking about all snipes, for blasters, dominators, and stalkers, right?
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I can dig it.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Why not combine the two? Out of combat, it does double/triple damage what they do now.
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I was. It should do enough ED capped damage to one shot an even con lieutenant without any outside or self buffs. That way you don't have to sacrifice your AoE burst damage potential to maybe kill one mob.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
...by the way, we are talking about all snipes, for blasters, dominators, and stalkers, right?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Right on.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I'm with you, as long as "modified damage" means substantially lower damage.
Sniper rifles are used at extreme range, taking into consideration windage and other environmental factors, with long aiming times to make sure that the attack hits a critical spot such as the head or heart. Gunfire becomes much less accurate immediately after another shot due to recoil. Less accurate means less damage because you're hitting a less vulnerable spot on the target. |
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Instead of modeling this after Momentum, it would make more sense to model it after the proposed change to Assassin's Strike. A snipe initiated in combat would have no interrupt time, but its damage would be one third the damage done when aiming (the interruptible part of casting), putting it in line with the Tier 1 attack.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
For example, Archery's Ranged Shot does 172.7 damage at level 50, with a 4.88 sec casting time and 3 sec. interrupt time. Archery's Snap Shot does 52.55 damage with a 1.19 sec casting time. Using Ranged Shot in combat would therefore do 57.6 damage with a 1.88 casting time.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
This would make me much more likely to take snipes, because they could be used in combat. Such a change would be especially beneficial in Electrical Blast, for example, because it has so many utility powers and no shorter-range hard-hitting blasts like Power Burst or Bitter Ice Blast.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
The tricky part is defining what "in combat" means. The mechanic for Assassin's Strike is easily defined: outside of Hide, you do less damage. The problem with snipes is determining whether you want to take the time to aim carefully to get the extra damage. Forcing a character to wait some amount of time before initiating a full-damage snipe in combat would substantially change the way existing characters play and should be avoided.
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Great post, BTW.
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Maybe, but of course the spirit and purpose behind the idea will be lost in the indiscriminate circle jerk of postings blinded by their own ambitions and pile on more and more damage to fulfill their needs.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Great post, BTW.
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The idea is a lot more thematic to snipes than Assassin's Focus is to Assassin's Strike, that's for sure.
I could see this for blasters only, since IMO they're a pretty useless AT right now, barely above stalkers. Other blast-set users bring enough other abilities to the party that I don't think they need a buff, but for blasters, sure.
On the other hand, more damage isn't necessarily what blasters need, but more utility and survivability in their secondaries. They're supposed to be glass cannons, but right now other ATs do enough damage to compete with the cannon part, while not having the drawbacks of the glass.
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Sorry I have to disagree - every time I see a blaster join a team I am always reminded about how much crazy damage they pump out.
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Originally Posted by Judas_Ace
I could see this for blasters only, since IMO they're a pretty useless AT right now, barely above stalkers. Other blast-set users bring enough other abilities to the party that I don't think they need a buff, but for blasters, sure.
On the other hand, more damage isn't necessarily what blasters need, but more utility and survivability in their secondaries. They're supposed to be glass cannons, but right now other ATs do enough damage to compete with the cannon part, while not having the drawbacks of the glass. |
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They are FAR above Stalkers currently. Have you used Rain of Arrows yet?!|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Sorry I have to disagree - every time I see a blaster join a team I am always reminded about how much crazy damage they pump out.
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I agree, Just Last night My team made comments about my blaster. "Please Stop killing Everything and Leave some for us!" and "Time to turn up the diff"...And this was on a level 26 Elec/Dark Blaster! Blasters do need tweaking but they do in fact bring to the table a TON of damage.
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Yes, they do damage. And that's it. They contribute nothing else worthwhile to a team...and their absence is very easily covered by brutes or scrappers or coors or doms. While other ATs may bring slightly less damage, in 7 years I've never seen a team suffer for lack of damage. I have seen some suffer for lack of buffs, debuffs, tanking, healing, or other issues. Damage is something that every AT can do so well that it really doesn't matter that Blasters do it a bit better. Blasters in the meantime suffer from chronic faceplant syndrome, and half the time they don't spend dead, they spend mezzed. And yes, you can cover some of these holes with IOs and good playing...but the other ATs can cover themselves that way as well, resulting in no relative net gain for blasters as an AT.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
They are FAR above Stalkers currently. Have you used Rain of Arrows yet?!
I agree, Just Last night My team made comments about my blaster. "Please Stop killing Everything and Leave some for us!" and "Time to turn up the diff"...And this was on a level 26 Elec/Dark Blaster! Blasters do need tweaking but they do in fact bring to the table a TON of damage. |
Blasters are irrelevant in every way since the one thing they do is something that everyone else does well enough to get by. And any way they can make up for their deficiencies can be employed by other ATs to an equal if not greater effect.
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No, for example, there are several defender types that have severe struggles when it comes to doing the Mender Ramiel arc, even after the inherent was buffed. Tankers also can take forever to kill something (typically) when compared to many other ATs - there are exceptions to all of these statements but a solo tanker wanting a blaster to team up with is not a rarity at all.
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Originally Posted by Judas_Ace
Yes, they do damage. And that's it. They contribute nothing else worthwhile to a team...and their absence is very easily covered by brutes or scrappers or coors or doms. While other ATs may bring slightly less damage, in 7 years I've never seen a team suffer for lack of damage. I have seen some suffer for lack of buffs, debuffs, tanking, healing, or other issues. Damage is something that every AT can do so well that it really doesn't matter that Blasters do it a bit better. Blasters in the meantime suffer from chronic faceplant syndrome, and half the time they don't spend dead, they spend mezzed. And yes, you can cover some of these holes with IOs and good playing...but the other ATs can cover themselves that way as well, resulting in no relative net gain for blasters as an AT.
Blasters are irrelevant in every way since the one thing they do is something that everyone else does well enough to get by. And any way they can make up for their deficiencies can be employed by other ATs to an equal if not greater effect. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Okay, I think the new mechanic for Titan Weapons is a great idea and hints that it'll be applied to Stalkers "Assassin Strike" powers...
-Assassin's Strike: using Assassin's Strike outside of hide will be an uninterruptible attack with no windup time, dealing Superior damage. This will allow Stalkers to do very competitive dps.
-All Stalker attacks that are not Assassin's Strike will build stacks of a buff called Assassin's Focus. Assassin's Focus increases your chance to critically strike with the out-of-hide Assassin's Strike.
-Stalker Buffed Max HP will be increased by about 400. This should allow them to fully benefit from powers like dull pain, hoarfrost, etc.
-These changes to Stalkers should make them very competitive top-end damage dealers, and help them with their early attack chain since they can use Assassin's Strike mid-combat.
Just a thought...