Costume Set Workshop--Gender Equality

Hey, folks. So there's been a lot of talk about how we should or should not handle gender-specific designs in COH costume sets. Let me add a little perspective to start things off, and then let's have some fun with this...


So to begin, a little history: When I first came to work at Paragon a little over 3 years ago, the Magic pack was in production, and it featured a distinct difference between the male (baron/warlock/vampire vibe) and female (sexy witch/sorceress) costumes. The pack's always been a great seller, so artistically, it set a precedent for 2 gender-specific looks in a set. Modern sets like Barbarian and Gunslinger are essentially a continuation.

Why do artists want to approach a costume set this way?
A) When we receive an assignment, the natural instinct is to represent our given theme as fully and broadly as possible. And with historical-tinged sets, that implies a visual difference between males and females.
B) When we receive an assignment, a million ideas occur to us at once, and our inclination is to include as much of that in each set as possible. So for us, it feels like we're giving you more when there's a difference between male and female costumes.

Sometimes I also think that there's a desire on our part to FULLY cover each theme in just one set, and obviously that's impossible when the set carries a super-broad name like 'Magic' or 'Mutant,' for example.


Where we stand now: So over time, it appears that the controversy over this approach has grown. To summarize the entire debate very quickly, players seem to want more gender neutrality/ female applications of traditionally male parts in addition to the female-specific parts. However, from a dev production standpoint, this is time and cost-prohibitive; time spent on males and females must be close to 50-50. So given this reality, the path of least resistance is to drop female-specific treatments and go with gender-neutral applications across the board (and try to sneak in a few female-specific parts here and there).

Personally, I think that's fine, and we can certainly make it work. Is it artistically limiting? Yes, but y'know what? We'll still come up with designs that are equally cool, and if anything, the constraints will simply force us to become more creative. This is a paradigm shift straight up, but if that's what the fans want, then that's what we'll do. Now let's move on...


...to the fun part. At the recent Player Summit, we held a player-driven Costume Set Workshop. The most popular theme from the audience was '50's Retro Sci-Fi,' so we spent the session doodling up some ideas for what might be in such a set, driven 100% by players' suggestions. Here's a pic of what we came up with:



Interestingly, players drew a clear distinction between a spacesuit/Adam Strange kind of look for men and a space go-go dancer/Jetsons/Space Channel 5 sort of thing for women. It's also worth noting that the female-specific look was requested and designed by women.

Because of the historical tinge, the set split naturally into different looks for men and women, even with players 100% behind the wheel.

So you see the dilemma. Say we wanted to make this set for real. Under the new process, both male and female characters would get the spacesuit. Maybe we could work optional rings into the spacesuit and/or make a separate skirt, but something would have to give on the female side, and my guess is that we'd lose the top, haircut, some belts, and boots.


Now I throw it open to you! Let's continue the workshop now here on the forums. In light of the controversy, how would you guys approach this hypothetical set?

--Do we cut out most or all of the female specific design and focus on the spacesuit +accessories?

--Is this an exception to the new rule somehow, and we go with both male and female options as shown in the sketch?

--Is the compromise I proposed (80% spacesuit w/ some female details worked in) acceptable to everyone?

--Or should we stay the course and create separate gender-specific visuals for male and female?

--What other ideas do you have?

As with the Player Summit Costume Workshop, we have no preconceived notions about what should be in this set. So it's all up to you guys. Take the opportunity now to help us define a good rule of thumb for future sets. I'm here to help guide the conversation and tell you when something's technically impossible, but you guys are in the driver's seat for this discussion.

Let's see what we can come up with together.

Btw, that was a really long initial post. Please do we a favor and snip out as much as possible when you reply. Take pity on my old, tired eyes.

With a name like 50s retro sci-fi i think the dress below is fine. But i do think the female should get the glass bubble helm as well.
The boots look intresting enough to not wanting to lose em. And perhaps they could be the first boots in years for females which don't have stupid feet.

Looking at the pic, the hair could go imo, we got the beehive hair in the halloween pack and it kind of looks similar to that.


edit: For the the problem with equality was with the gunslinger pack, males got to look like gunslingers while females looked like saloon wenches. With a name like 50s retro sci-fi having the men in space suits and girls in short dresses would be fine imo.

i would tend to go with 80% spacesuit/shared with some female-specific (and male-specific) details worked in.
Something like bubble helmet, spacesuit, and back pieces for both genders, with gender-specific versions of the ringed boots and gloves for each. Brain sucker for men and high collar for women.

The one thing i would suggest is that whatever pieces are most generic to the theme be for all models. In my opinion that would be the basic spacesuit, bubble helmet and rocket pack for the proposed set.

Maybe the occasional piece that would be unique to to the huge model. In a number of genres there are outfits and styles that are almost uniquely associated with the hulking wall of muscle in the story. In 50s retro sci-fi that would probably be a stained mechanic's style outfit (overalls/coveralls) or a gorilla body and a sphere with a porthole in it for a head.

Basically, people just want female-specific costume parts AND male costume parts ported to female body type.

Which would really be fine, since everyone can choose to use whichever gender they want. They won't be missing anything unless they're just too adamant about stacking with male. I still feel that there should be some female-only pieces made, so that a costume pack isn't just the same outfit ported to 3 different models.

In the cases of things that could work for both male and female, like buttcapes, consider making a different style of buttcape for the men.

Honestly, any way you roll with this is gonna piss some people off, no matter what.

when you say "time spent on males and females must be close to 50-50" how does the huge model fit into that equation? Is time spent developing for huge considered part of the development time for males or is there really a 33/33/33 division of labor going on?

That is a fantastic post and I hope some good comes out of this thread.

The horrible thing is, I'm beginning to think that the recent angry mob isn't so much about gender neutrality as it is mismanaged expectations, like Sapphic Neko alluded to.

- Players have been dying for a good female jacket for a very long time. A lot of other things too, but that's a big one. They just want a set in which the female model gets a jacket.

- So here comes a set called Gunslinger. The "gunslinger" look, both in history and cinema, involves stuff like jackets and dusters for both men and women. Hey, this could be the chance for a female jacket! Hopes rise.

- Then the Gunslinger set is actually released. Hopes are crushed, and players are angry and disappointed and pissed about not getting a female jacket when their expectations for the set led them to believe there would be one.

I don't know what your production schedules are like, but there may be value in trying to come up with more sets that are more tightly linked. Like Marshal_Wagner says, you've got two distinct styles there. Splitting it into a Spacesuit set and a Jetsons-style set, each with its own narrow focus, would work very well, I think.

If that's not feasible, then go find someone in Marketing and punch them until they understand the importance of properly managing expectations.

Or just punch them. I find Marketing people usually could use a good punching.

As I said in the other thread, I really don't think male and female sets need to be 100% the same... It's not a bad thing to have at least some pieces that are different... The trouble comes from making the sets COMPLETELY different and from the *kind* of female peices you guys have choosen to include.

It wouldn't bother me at all to get a Judy Jetson dress and girly-hair for my gals instead of a comic-strip Buck Rogers jumpsuit and buzz-cut in the Retro Space set. It would bother me if all they got was a foil bikini and go-go boots. o_0

I would want the collar for both genders. And the split boots pictured with the collar as well. Not to mention boots and gloves with rings.

I see the potential for a bulky space garb (space suits) and sleeker space garb (in-atmosphere future-wear) set here, both of which could pretty well be shared between genders. The latter set would mostly be gloves/boots/belts/accessories that pair well with tights. The only piece that might necessarily be female-specific is a ringed skirt.

Also, think of it this way: Sure, you may end up spending 30% more time on a specific costume set, but odds are, if you guys put in enough effort, 50% more people are going to shell out the money. Meaning more profit for you, and a happier community.