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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
3) Lightform. It's nice, but it's also absurd for an AT to have its entire playstyle completely dependant on a single power. We all know where it leads, because we've seen what happened to Energy Transfer and Psychic Shockwave. Lightform is a bandaid, and one we shouldn't be overly attached to. For the purpose of these discussions, I'd avoid falling back into the counter-argument "yes, but we have lightform", because that counter might not remain valid for long. |
So in your opinion, the developers decided to spend time buffing light form, after a very positive reaction from the player base, just so that they could get ready to nerf it again? That strikes me as a waste of resources and a good way to make a lot of people pretty irked.
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No, that strikes me as a responsible development decision. "Ok, guys, we know Peacebringers need help, but right now we're busy fixing other things. Here's a quick bandaid until we have time to sort out your issues."
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
So in your opinion, the developers decided to spend time buffing light form, after a very positive reaction from the player base, just so that they could get ready to nerf it again? That strikes me as a waste of resources and a good way to make a lot of people pretty irked.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
No, that strikes me as a responsible development decision. "Ok, guys, we know Peacebringers need help, but right now we're busy fixing other things. Here's a quick bandaid until we have time to sort out your issues."
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I don't think that's how it was presented or implemented at all.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I just want to chime in and say that there's nothing a Peacebringers Nova or Dwarf can really do that a human only build can't. How is Nova any better against Recluse? Human form has better ranged single target damage than Nova does, and higher survivability to boot.
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Human form ranged attacks have less range than Nova. I would get more survivability from Nova. Whilst in human form blasting, Recluse can reach you with his attacks - his max range 110ft. Whilst in Nova form it doesn't have to be so, my Novas max range with 3 attacks 120ft. That's why 8 Novas on Recluse is less awkward, less complicated and potentially scot free with a coffee in one hand when it comes to anyone getting done in. Smiling Joe would be right if ya ask me about not needing a tank on the last bit.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Human form ranged attacks have less range than Nova. I would get more survivability from Nova. Whilst in human form blasting, Recluse can reach you with his attacks - his max range 110ft. Whilst in Nova form it doesn't have to be so, my Novas max range with 3 attacks 120ft. That's why 8 Novas on Recluse is less awkward, less complicated and potentially scot free with a coffee in one hand when it comes to anyone getting done in. Smiling Joe would be right if ya ask me about not needing a tank on the last bit.
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I doubt outranging is going to make it so you never get hit, plus you'll still be dropping to human form for essence boost, hasten and inner light. Shift animations take time, so you'll lose damage. As for when human form does get hit, reform is up all the time anyways. Human form with high defense will still be better off because it will be able to do more damage, and it won't get hit by anything as often.
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Nope, tried, tested and proven. I lack on speculation. Outranging does mean you can't be hit at all as whats outranged is outranged, you keep it that way and easily so and I only say potentially scot free because if you position wrong you could be compromised because the geometry of map and your place within it is somewhat important. You can easily die fighting with human form.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I doubt outranging is going to make it so you never get hit, plus you'll still be dropping to human form for essence boost, hasten and inner light. Shift animations take time, so you'll lose damage. As for when human form does get hit, reform is up all the time anyways. Human form with high defense will still be better off because it will be able to do more damage, and it won't get hit by anything as often.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You'd be less likely to die than most melee sets would be, and in my book that's hardly worth the lost damage. Besides, restore recharges in like a minute and a half- I would say that the improved damage output is absolutely worth the risk... And then there's the 99% of other situations in the game where slotting Nova up would lead to gimping the effectiveness of other parts of your build in some way. A little bit of range for rare situations is hardly enough of an attraction to consider it a logical build alternative in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Nope, tried, tested and proven. I lack on speculation. Outranging does mean you can't be hit at all as whats outranged is outranged, you keep it that way and easily so and I only say potentially scot free because if you position wrong you could be compromised because the geometry of map and your place within it is somewhat important. You can easily die fighting with human form.
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If I want to change from Nova to human all I do is click my macro which has me in human flying. So any additional clickies are without risk. It actually doesn't require many slots per attack and you're only talking 3 attacks that put you at such range so thats not bad.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You'd be less likely to die than most melee sets would be, and in my book that's hardly worth the lost damage. Besides, restore recharges in like a minute and a half- I would say that the improved damage output is absolutely worth the risk... And then there's the 99% of other situations in the game where slotting Nova up would lead to gimping the effectiveness of other parts of your build in some way. A little bit of range for rare situations is hardly enough of an attraction to consider it a logical build alternative in my opinion.
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This is where we are just two people out of many. Only a small fraction of people visit the forums or have a kheld as a main. My Khelds ain't my mains. My builds are very expensive but not purpled, purples would go in mains. Rather than go for doing things one way which is fine if you could afford to purple out I am looking at doing things an alternative way. Because its less costly, offers more survivability, it therefore is logical to me. So whilst people can presume such and such is useless at 50 to them which is in their right and is probably true doesn't make it so for others.
I'll always assume that despite the fact I don't do certain things or have certain powers it doesn't necessarily make what my choices the natural choices that others make. My peacebringer still has grp fly. I have an anticipated use for that too. Someones PB is bound to have Spring Attack. Whatever floats their boat.
I quickly worked in Nova with 2 ranged attacks with 3 slots in each, using your Purple PB build, kept most everything the same cept again Proton Scatter is still not there. Then I worked out the DPS trade off and it is high, unavoidably but so would be being dead.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My big problem with Khelds was how tangled the design and gameplay was, yes you could do a little bit of everything but it was hard to make a full attack chain. Am I supposed to stay at range, or melee, with the low damage on melee attacks and no mez protection I felt like a defender with no team buffs. When combined with the increasing number of mezzes attached to every other attack of mobs to keep the game interesting, Khelds always seemed to lag behind.
The perma-lightform made my PB playable again, I really enjoy the change. The change to inner lightform has not been touted as much but I think might be more important to PB's than the lightform change. The problem of course is with strong mez protection and max resistance in one power the forms are useless to me. I still take nova for exemping down but the forms have problems. They do not offer full playstyle right off the bat, there are notable lags in the attack chains in both forms where you are doing nothing. Recharge IO's and more slots cure this but every other set in the game by level 8 offers a full attack chain. The lack of a reasonable attack chain in each form seems silly. The form shift animation is too slow to argue that you can safely make a chain between forms, if this is the intended goal then this animation time needs to be calculated into all the attacks and the damages, recharge, activations increased accordingly. From years of CoH gameplay I can tell you they feel clunky and unrewarding but that's my personal experience with them.
Again the playstyle is extremely tangled...and don't get me wrong this is great fun to some extent, but I need a complete attack chain at either range/melee or enough buffs/debuffs to have a complete attack chain in a fight. The Warshade actually pulls the powers together nicely, however the PB until perma-lightform never really did this for me, heck this might be operator error, but based on how few PB's you would encounter in game I tend to suspect the design was broken.
I guess my best suggestion would be to keep human form viability and make the forms more broadly flavored to the other AT's. But whatever they do the forms need more powers to make them a viable playing experience. I am making an ASSUMPTION that they could add these powers to the form and balance them out to not make the pure AT's obsolete.
The problem then of course is slots. They probably won't consider this but by introducing AT specific IO's (it is coming soon isn't it?) they have an in game solution. Make the kheld only IO's broader and stronger due to the lack of slots the increased numbers of powers provide and allow for one set in each Form. I am of course making another assumption that more AT specific IO's will be introduced in the future.
After reading this too many assumptions but oh well.
Having played the VEATs and coming back to PBs/WSs I have to say #1 thing that stands out to me as a failure on the PB/WS is lack of status pro, other then dwarf form.
Both PB/WS like to be inthe thick of things with thier attacks. Thier not a support class, and they dont have the raw DPS of a Blaster. Its obvious thier ment more as a blapper with scrapper like res. However without having no status pro destroys this roll.
Looking at the VEATs crab we see 2 Innate passive powers with status pro biuld in. itsn ot much status pro but its enough for most activity. Looking at the PB/WS we see a passive right off the bat. I would really like to see a Mag 2 basic Status pro package (leave out the KB as they do the same on Veats).
I also would like to see Dwarf and Nova share thier like attacks with the human form. As in you only need to slot them once. As many have mention Slots are at a preimeum with tri-form/bi-form biulds. Why force a Kel to burn slots in 2 copies of the same power.
Its also rather annoying that right out of the box the Dwarf has a massively incomplete attack chain... you dont even get to use Brawl!!!!
I also like to see the resistance bonus that PB (not sure if WS have the same types I forget) to not be just Res. 85% of the time when I group with my PB I hit Res Caps in Human form (without Light Form) due to this bonus. It kinda makes Dwarf form pointless... the only reason I use Dwarf is for the status pro and then my DPS goes into the Toilet. And if your in a large group the liklyness that you need to "tank" is very very small leading to even more reason Dwarf is pointless.
I think if instead of +10 res, if It gave +5 Res and +2.5% Def it would work out better.
Also instead of +20% damage switch to +15% damage and +5% to Hit buff
This is without getting into the whole damage/support aspecs of the class vs thier villain counter parts (VEATs) who not only bring damage but support to thier team with thier tanking capacity. ( I have a crab that puts my PB to complete shame in just about every way).
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
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I'm agreeing with you on this one THB. I've heard alot about this buff making light form a power that can be made perma...|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I don't think that's how it was presented or implemented at all.
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I've often heard that the devs say the game is balanced around SOs...so if this buff was intended to make LF perma (which is only available through the IO system) then I doubt it will be a long lived buff or even considered a "fix" to Kheldians if it does stick around.
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Simply put, the buff was designed to put Light Form more in line with Eclipse. That's all. The two are roughly equivalent now and there's no reason to swap it back... any adjustments needed are in other powers or setup for the AT.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
I'm agreeing with you on this one THB. I've heard alot about this buff making light form a power that can be made perma...
I've often heard that the devs say the game is balanced around SOs...so if this buff was intended to make LF perma (which is only available through the IO system) then I doubt it will be a long lived buff or even considered a "fix" to Kheldians if it does stick around. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
PS - Remove all the Knockback 
* well most, Radiant Strike is fine as a protection power*, making your group angry with you because half your powers scatters everything is not fun. Its not even the kind of KB that you can control (like Energy Torrent which has a directional KB you can manipulate).
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Re: The knockback issue. Why not change it all to KD in the current powers, and then also give Peacebringers a 1 second recharge Power Push clone, that way all the people who love playing their Peacebringers because they like knockback, griefing team mates, and making the game less enjoyable for everyone else don't have anything to complain about. They can still have their KB and the rest of us can have more effective characters.
And to address buffing the forms, I came by something that seriously needs to be looked at with both Swarf forms. Last night I was doing the Maria Jenkins arc on a team of 3: My Human Form Warshade, AIB on his Tri Form Peacebringer, and a Tri Form Warshade. We had AV's turned on. During the AV fights, I was consistently able to pull and sustain aggro off of both of my team mates who were in Dwarf form, using Provoke. AIB was able to get it back off of me when he taunted excessively, but I was just as able to pull it back off of him.
This leads me to what is wrong with the forms. I've always said that Human Form Warshades had the potential to compete with Dwarf form in filling a tanking role, and this confirmed it to me. Looking at the Wiki, Dwarf form has the same threat level as Scrappers, which is 3, and Human Form is at 2. I really think that Dwarf needs to be given an increased threat of 4 to be on level with Brutes and Tanks, and it definitely, absolutely needs a taunt aura. When my Human Form Warshade can tank for 2 Kheldians who are in Dwarf form, there is a problem.
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You're forgetting one thing here about Kheldians. They are MADE to shapeshift, so it makes sense for some players to pick and choose how they slot their abilities. |
Originally Posted by oreso
I'm sorry, I refuse to accept the forms as just set mules with a couple of toys. I want to be able to use those attacks. Like, in an attack chain. For the purposes of causing damage.
You slot just the AoE on nova you'll have incredibly low DPS. Much lower than human form, so what's the point? How so? I'm basically saying you can have all the enhancement values you get already, but only requiring slots in the form power. |
I personally couldn't see my Kheldians without their forms (I used to think otherwise, but I just miss them to much.) In your situation, it would make the AT somewhat overpowered. If i could put two damage, two acc, and two recharge into nova form. I would have powers equivalent to being six slotted (24 slots) in exchange for only using 6. Those extra 18 slots can be used to six slot 3 more powers. In short, I'm getting 7 six slotted powers (42 slots) at the price of only 24 slots....and that's only accounting for nova form...
If you don't want to waste slots on your form abilities, then Go human form
It's a catch 22. If you buff your human form powers, you miss out on forms. If you buff your form abilities, you don't get many slots for your human form abilities. This system works because it's flexible to the user's playstyle.
And, you said dwarf wasn't useful past 40? Lies! Ever used a double flare or mire bind?
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I would love to slot form powers, if there was a return for the investment. As it stands, human form alone is vastly superior (and yet still isn't amazing). |
Originally Posted by Bionut911
If you don't want to waste slots on your form abilities, then Go human form
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So, either improve form performance -a lot- or reduce the amount I need to invest.
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And, you said dwarf wasn't useful past 40? Lies! Ever used a double flare or mire bind?
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OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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That's what I was getting at |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Simply put, the buff was designed to put Light Form more in line with Eclipse. That's all. The two are roughly equivalent now and there's no reason to swap it back... any adjustments needed are in other powers or setup for the AT.
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Basically, That's exactly what I saw the change as. It was a balancing "band-aid" so to speak to patch up Kheldians in preparation for a better fix
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I agree that there needs to be some fix towards the synergy of the powers...but reducing investment isn't the way to go in my opinion.|
Originally Posted by oreso
I would love to slot form powers, if there was a return for the investment. As it stands, human form alone is vastly superior (and yet still isn't amazing).
So, either improve form performance -a lot- or reduce the amount I need to invest. Double flare is pants. Maybe when we have shorter animation times it'll be a slightly less clumsy way to chain some AoE. But now? Really not. |
I have plenty of uses for dwarf after 40, and so do many other players. You really need to take that into consideration, and also that not everyone plays Kheldians like a "toolbox." Some people actually do play them one form at a time..
If someone uses nova to blast, and never leaves the form until the team needs a tank...then it's completely logical to 6 slot all of nova's blast powers, and not slot the human form versions.
I would agree with a proposition for something like 1 extra inherent slot for form powers that can't be slotted, but comes with the power. Because it doesn't mess with the many different playstyles that Kheldians bring to the table.
Edit: Also, on terms of your Attack chain point. I have no clue how to make a good attack chain, or even figure out what a "good" attack chain even is! But, In the end-game I still feel that my PB is powerful, useful, and fun to play..even with forms.
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What? Are you talking about the shifting animation? Because shifting from Dwarf to Human is instantaneous. I can't imagine trying to chain Solar Flare followed by Dwarf Flare.|
Originally Posted by oreso
Double flare is pants. Maybe when we have shorter animation times it'll be a slightly less clumsy way to chain some AoE. But now? Really not.
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No - the double stomp begins the dwarf flare. The macro looks like this:
/macro DS "powexec_name "powexec_name Solar Flare$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_toggleoff White Dwarf."
Start with your Dwarf Flare, then as the animation for that ends hit the macro - you'll drop to human form instantly and perform Solar Flare.
But that still carries the animation time of dwarf flare before you can get the Solar Flare off. Want something quicker?
/bind [key] "powexec_toggleoff White Dwarf$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_name White Dwarf Flare$$powexec_auto Solar Flare"
Because dropping to human form is instant, the white dwarf flare will animate in human form at the same time as solar flare, resulting in two back-to-back AOE hits. The only catch is that it puts Solar Flare on Auto. You can either hit the bound key a second time to turn the auto off, or change up your dwarf shift bind like so:
/bind [key] "powexec_toggleon White Dwarf$$goto_tray 8$$powexec_auto Solar Flare"
Note that the same bind toggles auto on and off.
For chaining three AoE's, you could always substitute a well-slotted Luminous Detonation for Solar Flare in the first macro like so:
/macro AoE "Powexec_name Luminous Detonation$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_toggleoff white dwarf"
Here you hit WDF, followed by this macro, where you'll drop to human and fire off LD at your nearest foe. It's fast animating, so you can still hit them with Solar Flare while they're in the air for a good 3 AoE combo.
Chaining AoE's with khelds is easy - you just have to A) start your first AoE in form, and B) experiment.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Cheers Joe, that's pretty cool
But... Requiring macros?. And ya know, you're still losing time and toggles by turning to Dwarf in the first place. Still seems clumsy.
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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The results are to be expected, if you have a 6 slotted Provoke and AIB has a 1 slotted Antagonize, so it's not a properly fair example. AIB will have to 6 slot his Antagonize for a proper comparison which otomh I am fairly convinced it isn't. Then the winner of aggro has to be the winner in threat formulas, a different times, one of you will have the great taunt duration remaining. The magnitude in threat level between the two of you is just a small part of the threat formula when compared to taunt duration.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
During the AV fights, I was consistently able to pull and sustain aggro off of both of my team mates who were in Dwarf form, using Provoke. AIB was able to get it back off of me when he taunted excessively, but I was just as able to pull it back off of him.
This leads me to what is wrong with the forms. I've always said that Human Form Warshades had the potential to compete with Dwarf form in filling a tanking role, and this confirmed it to me. Looking at the Wiki, Dwarf form has the same threat level as Scrappers, which is 3, and Human Form is at 2. I really think that Dwarf needs to be given an increased threat of 4 to be on level with Brutes and Tanks, and it definitely, absolutely needs a taunt aura. When my Human Form Warshade can tank for 2 Kheldians who are in Dwarf form, there is a problem. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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For the three AoE chain described last, you can hit inner light first, shift to form and do all three in JUUUUST at or under 10 seconds|
Originally Posted by oreso
Cheers Joe, that's pretty cool
But... Requiring macros?. And ya know, you're still losing time and toggles by turning to Dwarf in the first place. Still seems clumsy. |
I generally only take the smashing/lethal shield on my triform builds, and my shifting bind down from form looks like:
/bind [key] "powexec_name shining shield$$Goto_tray 1$$powexec_toggleoff white dwarf$$powexec_toggleoff bright nova"
If you've taken three shields, you can always use this and add the following bind:
/bind [key] "+down$$powexec_toggleon quantum shield$$powexec_toggleon thermal shield"
Because it's a toggle key, it will activate thermal shield on the downward press and - if you keep the key pressed long enough for the animation to start - will activate quantum shield on key release.
So that's form dropped and all three shields activated in two keystrokes.
But really, the binds for the double stomp are meant to be activated under combat circumstances where it's assumed you'll be back in dwarf or nova in a matter of seconds anyway. If you were to plan on staying in human form (ie- had all three shields) for the rest of the fight then it might not be a practical tactic. YMMV
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
The results are to be expected, if you have a 6 slotted Provoke and AIB has a 1 slotted Antagonize, so it's not a properly fair example. AIB will have to 6 slot his Antagonize for a proper comparison which otomh I am fairly convinced it isn't. Then the winner of aggro has to be the winner in threat formulas, a different times, one of you will have the great taunt duration remaining. The magnitude in threat level between the two of you is just a small part of the threat formula when compared to taunt duration.
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Just checked his PB's build and he has taunt one slotted with the psi damage proc. Still though, even with our slotting taken into account his taunt has a 35s duration vs. 27.65s from my 6 slotted provoke. His taunt is also autohit whereas provoke is not.
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The minimum to add to Nova is like 6 slots, 3 attacks are most important for a distinct advantage over human, add 2 to each of them. They could be useful slot mules for human form interests too. 115ft of range is like a minimum advantage. Nova for exemplaring and increased range.|
Originally Posted by Bionut911
I personally couldn't see my Kheldians without their forms (I used to think otherwise, but I just miss them to much.) In your situation, it would make the AT somewhat overpowered. If i could put two damage, two acc, and two recharge into nova form. I would have powers equivalent to being six slotted (24 slots) in exchange for only using 6. Those extra 18 slots can be used to six slot 3 more powers. In short, I'm getting 7 six slotted powers (42 slots) at the price of only 24 slots....and that's only accounting for nova form...
If you don't want to waste slots on your form abilities, then Go human form |
Then with Dwarf, ideally Antagonize would be 6 slotted, it'll then be near on par with what Tanks and Brutes get, just slightly less threat and range really. Add 3 to the melee attacks as they're +S/L Def slot mules for human form too, 3 to the AoE, (2 off potential slot mules), perhaps 4 to the heal (again slot mules).
6 slots to Nova, 16 to Dwarf doesn't leave people with much but most of it is still buffing human form anyway and still can be whilst making Dwarf a worthwhile Tank form, and a Nova for exemplaring and increased range.
In doing so a high end build may not be sacrificising perma eclipse, but might lose out on a human form attack and its procs.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I just want to chime in and say that there's nothing a Peacebringers Nova or Dwarf can really do that a human only build can't. How is Nova any better against Recluse? Human form has better ranged single target damage than Nova does, and higher survivability to boot.