I want villains I can respect
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-11-14 04:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ok I guess it was inevitable we couldn't agree on stuff for too long lol |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I like to see that as a good thing. We're always pushing the writers to try new and interesting things and up their game instead of relying on storytelling clichés. Sometimes it works (Praetorian Earth), sometimes it doesn't (First Ward), but it's still a benefit to the game. Unwittingly, Cryptic Studios created a game which put players in direct competition with the game's actual developers, and that's one reason we've pushed the team so hard.
While I think they've done well for the most part, I still want to criticise them for avoiding actually interesting stories and characters in favour of gimmicks and funky mission design. When I said they need to treat their good characters with more respect, I meant it. Recently, the game's storytelling has made it a point to take a dump on all established signature characters, I suppose in an attempt to make player characters feel more important (and then taken a dump on those, too) so that it's really turned into a world of losers and wimps. Everyone is tragic, everyone is in danger of dying, everyone is flawed, and there's just no respect left for the characters the story really SHOULD respect. When there are no respectable villains to compete with and no respectable heroes to measure against but the overpowered god mode sues which we can't really match anyway, it's that much harder to care. And I WANT to care. I WANT to care about the storyline, I WANT to care about the characters... I want to care about this game's fictional world, but it seems like the writing stuff themselves don't care. "Old stuff is old," so previous writers' characters are killed off or ignored in favour of a Neuron style of development, always introducing new characters and plot points and then killing them or forgetting them just as quickly. I want to care, but I don't get the impression that the writers want me to care, or that they care about their own creations, at all. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but it's becoming pretty obvious they don't RESPECT their own creations. Honestly, I never liked the Hollows or the story it told. Even back in I2 when everyone and their grandma was hailing it as the new standard of quality for how stories and missions should be made, I still saw it as garbage writing. It's not really a "story," just a collection of unconnected events punctuated by a milestone when contacts get bored of wasting my time. Flux, for instance, gives me a bunch of meaningless missions, then goes "Oh, by the way, I know where Frostfire is!" and at the time he brings it up... I don't know who Frostfire is to begin with. "Oh, he's the leader of the Outcasts!" He is? Then how come he's barely level 10, but when I take him down and move onto Steel Canyon, I see outcasts with powers greater than his extending all the way to level 20? Who's their current leader? How can I "bust" the outcasts in the level range before they originally even existed? Now, granted, I suspect the Hollows was intended to be something like a level 20-30 zone that got scaled down because of the "Kings Row bottleneck" as it was known as the time, so a lot of the critters were WAY too strong and a lot of stories feel like they should take place much later. Learning about Oranbega, busting the Outcasts and the Trolls and so forth. I get why things are as they are, but the zone has no real story or backstory to it. Characters are introduced only to disappear the next mission over, and the only consistent "storyline" is that of Sam Wincott through his diaries, which I can't even ******* see the ending of because I've never, ever, not once, not a single time run the Caverns of Transcendence. I'd actually go as far as to ask where you're getting this much more interesting depiction of FrostFire from, because all I've ever been able to gather from the Hollows "storyline" has been "FrostFire is the leader of the Outcasts. Kill his ***!" Same with Atta, actually. Who is he? How did he become the Trolls' leader? Why is "Grendel's Gulch" relevant? What is his story? I didn't know the Trolls even HAD a leader until Talshak the Mystic told me he had divined where Atta was. The Hollows, Striga and Croatoa are actually by FAR my least favourite zones for storyline content. Their "arcs" are disjointed, packed with filler and ultimately unfinished, because they all end on a TF, and of those the only one I've run is Ernesto Hess'. Characters exist in them, but the narrative fails to show them any respect or give them any characterisation. Even Hess himself I don't know much about. And who the devil is Maestro? All I know is I fought Emperor Ming the Merciless at the end of the Hess TF. --- I get that we as players enjoy a narrative which strokes our egos and paints us as better than our peers and stronger than our enemies. I get that. But we need good peers and strong enemies for this to matter. Moreover, it is us who should be made better and stronger, not our peers and enemies worse and weaker. If the game respects its own villains, then beating them is that much more satisfying. |
I think there are two things that differ between us in those instances: First I don't think the Devs like to hand all the stories out in one go - a lot like comicbooks, often there are unfinished plot lines that just stop... but they exist because there's the potential to pick them up later. As an ongoing story it's never a good plan to just tell one story in one go and go "that's it... next." A wise man once said "always leave the audience wanting more" and that's true of MMOs especially I guess.
Also, I tend not to read every mission detail in depth. I pick it up here and there and I'm not reading with a critical tooth comb. I'm just playing and teaming and running through content in the knowledge that I'll be picking the mission up later and doing some more.
I don't know if that's how you do it (I suspect not) but it tends to drip feed me the story and not always in linear fashion. But enough so I get to enjoy it, have half an idea of what's going on and still keep up wtih the team. We both do what works for us and have come away with a different impression.
I do recognise there's a lack of consistency in this game - that the Devs often pursue the next shiny instead of the exiting solid consturction and they do that with story as much as with zones and stuff. I'm not so sure I agree with our enemies being weakened but we are definitely stronger (but given our apparently diametrically different views to that maybe I won't go there
) but if we don't have to struggle to defeat the boss at the end, then maybe that also erodes any respect for them.
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I respect Flambeaux
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I'd respec Flambeaux!
Thelonious Monk
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This is a problem, though. It may be a problem for just me and a few other people, but above all else in a story, I want closure. Not just an "end," but specifically closure. I want to know that the story's plot was worth retelling, I want to know that something was achieved, and I want to know that all the nasty stuff was worth it in the end. A good story does have pain and unpleasantness, I won't deny that, but it should balance those against sufficient closure to make it all worthwhile.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
A wise man once said "always leave the audience wanting more" and that's true of MMOs especially I guess.
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I don't really mind leaving open plot hooks in ongoing stories. Far from it. However, I do want the plot to end with a sense of closure before it's shelved. I don't want it to just sort of stop in the middle of a sentence when the writer leaves and the new writer doesn't feel like finishing the same story. In fact, this is something many amateur writers fall victim to as they start out - they begin many stories, excited about the possibilities, but realise how long it will take to finish them, get distracted by new inspiration, start working on new stories and the old one just stop. Sadly, half of a good story is no story at all, and that's a problem.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I'm not so sure I agree with our enemies being weakened but we are definitely stronger (but given our apparently diametrically different views to that maybe I won't go there
) but if we don't have to struggle to defeat the boss at the end, then maybe that also erodes any respect for them. |
Remember how people asked for Circle of Thorns costumes, but in order to give them to us, the art team essentially changed their costumes to something completely different? That's sort of what I mean.
Speaking of matching up against respected characters, Time After Time does it so much better. Our villains travel to the future and take on Lord Recluse at the time of his ultimate triumph, at the peak of his powers and with legions of soldiers by his side. We defy the will of Arachnos, we break Recluse's scheme, we strike out on our own, and even Recluse himself eventually has to admit that we are not to be messed with. The trick is that the villain is put over very strong, we are just put over even stronger. That, to me, is respect. Even though he loses, even though he ends up failing completely, I can still respect Recluse for how close he got, and defeating a villain I can respect is just that much sweeter.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I just want to chime in here to say that I'd love all of the major characters in the game to get story arcs where we find out more about their origins, personalities and methods; and also get to have them as a pet/ally.
Hard to respect characters you don't know.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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On the one hand, you're right. Names on a blackboard aren't respectable unless we know them. On the other hand, such backstory is highly susceptible to making a character much more embarrassing than if we hadn't known.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I just want to chime in here to say that I'd love all of the major characters in the game to get story arcs where we find out more about their origins, personalities and methods; and also get to have them as a pet/ally.
Hard to respect characters you don't know. |
I'll reach for the easy example - is Darth Vader honestly a better villain now that we know he was a whiny emo kid before he donned his helmet and screamed the meme-tasting "NOOOOOOOO!!!"? Well... Not to me, no. Darth Vader of Episodes 4, 5 and 6 was a tragic, but still cool, threatening and respectable villain. Anakin Skywalker of Episodes 1, 2 and 3 is a brat that I just want to slap upside the head. Medichlorians?
More generally, the backstories of respectable villains need to be handles with great care so as not to make them whiny as kids and so as not to ruin their threat. After all, that villain with the doomsday device suddenly seems a lot harder to take seriously when you learn he used to wet the bed, right? If we're going to be exploring these people's backstories, then they need to be handled in those with even more respect than in their present stories.
Overall, when I learn of a persistent villain's past, I want to leave amazed and afraid that if that's what he was in the past, then the present can only get worse and he's clearly holding back now. Or at least something to that effect, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Even with the massive disadvantage of having been played by Hayden Christiansen, Darth Vader is still a more compelling character than Darth Maul.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'll reach for the easy example - is Darth Vader honestly a better villain now that we know he was a whiny emo kid before he donned his helmet and screamed the meme-tasting "NOOOOOOOO!!!"? Well... Not to me, no. Darth Vader of Episodes 4, 5 and 6 was a tragic, but still cool, threatening and respectable villain. Anakin Skywalker of Episodes 1, 2 and 3 is a brat that I just want to slap upside the head. Medichlorians?
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I rest my case.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Not bagging on you Sam but to me those two reason are really, REALLY shallow reasons to 'respect' a villain.| Now, when I say "redeeming qualities," I'm not talking about aspects of the villain that make him less evil or less a villain. In fact, far from it. I don't mean "Oh, he kills people, but it's OK because they're mostly bad people." so much as "Oh, he kills people but DAMN he looks hot in tight leather pants!" or "Sure, he's an evil demon who steals souls but he has a really cool, really big sword." |
Personally I respect a villain who is often the hero in their own mind, they're doing it because they believe it's right. However that isn't to say I don't like villains that have "really cool swords", there's a vast difference between like and respect, much as there is a difference between respect and love.
For example I absolutely love the main villain from 5th Element, I enjoy the actors preformance (who was hamming it up and obviously throwing himself into the role) but I also respect him because, well, he's the head of a multi-million dollar weapons company, you don't get to the stage by being stupid. He was funny when he needed to be and sadistic when he needed to be.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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I don't know. Darth Maul was never a complex villain, but at least what he did, he did well. His whole point was to look and act menacing and represent pretty much the only threat in that movie that the jedi couldn't just overpower or cheat past, and as such he's actually a very effective villain. I respect him for his foreboding feel and I like him because he didn't make an *** of himself at any point in the movie, unlike most other characters.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Even with the massive disadvantage of having been played by Hayden Christiansen, Darth Vader is still a more compelling character than Darth Maul.
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I think what works for Darth Maul is he never speaks. For one, that's very effective at building a threatening villain, especially as someone who you simply can't bargain with. For another, when a character doesn't speak, this eliminates SO MANY opportunities for said character to embarrass himself. I mean, how many people would have Jar Jar if he simply never spoke a word?
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Not bagging on you Sam but to me those two reason are really, REALLY shallow reasons to 'respect' a villain.
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I don't really mean "respect" in its most serious meaning, but I use the word "respect" over "like" because we're really not supposed to like villains, and I really don't enjoy villains I'm supposed to like as villains. We're supposed to dislike our villains clearly and decidedly, but have reasons to want to see them come back again and again even though we don't actually "like" them. Hence, respect.A while before, someone mentioned a character punching a giant robot with his bare hands while his head was on fire. I can respect that. It may be shallow, but I can respect that. In fact, I want to see more of it
That's really what it comes down to - these are bad, bad people, I don't like them and I want to see them lose... Yet I still want to see them survive to show up again later in the story. Because even though I dislike the character... There are still certain aspects about him that I want to see again. I don't like the villain, but I respect him as a good villain.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is a problem, though. It may be a problem for just me and a few other people, but above all else in a story, I want closure. Not just an "end," but specifically closure. I want to know that the story's plot was worth retelling, I want to know that something was achieved, and I want to know that all the nasty stuff was worth it in the end. A good story does have pain and unpleasantness, I won't deny that, but it should balance those against sufficient closure to make it all worthwhile.
I don't really mind leaving open plot hooks in ongoing stories. Far from it. However, I do want the plot to end with a sense of closure before it's shelved. I don't want it to just sort of stop in the middle of a sentence when the writer leaves and the new writer doesn't feel like finishing the same story. In fact, this is something many amateur writers fall victim to as they start out - they begin many stories, excited about the possibilities, but realise how long it will take to finish them, get distracted by new inspiration, start working on new stories and the old one just stop. Sadly, half of a good story is no story at all, and that's a problem. I don't really mean "weakened" in the literal sense, like how Hequat is weakened when we fight her, hence why we can take on a god. I mean more... Disrespected, so to speak. For instance, one of the big things many of us wanted to do way back in the Jack Emmert era was become at least about equal to the Statesman, way back when the only place he showed up in-game was in Tyrant's cave, where he spawned as a level 54 Archvillain. Yes, that's what he was classed as. Many of us asked to be as awesome as he was one day. Lo and behold, I19 rolls around and we are suddenly as awesome as the Statesman... Because he's revealed to be a sad, tragic hero wrought with weakness whose power is not his own and whose will is barely even there. The Statesman had to be brought to his knees as a way for us to measure up to him, and that doesn't make this feel more like an accomplishment as it makes it feel like the game just lowered the bar all of a sudden. Remember how people asked for Circle of Thorns costumes, but in order to give them to us, the art team essentially changed their costumes to something completely different? That's sort of what I mean. Speaking of matching up against respected characters, Time After Time does it so much better. Our villains travel to the future and take on Lord Recluse at the time of his ultimate triumph, at the peak of his powers and with legions of soldiers by his side. We defy the will of Arachnos, we break Recluse's scheme, we strike out on our own, and even Recluse himself eventually has to admit that we are not to be messed with. The trick is that the villain is put over very strong, we are just put over even stronger. That, to me, is respect. Even though he loses, even though he ends up failing completely, I can still respect Recluse for how close he got, and defeating a villain I can respect is just that much sweeter. |
That's one reason I hatehateloathehatedetest the basic Incarnate premise. It's not real. It's lent to you by some power that might well decide at some capricious point in the future to remove its power from you or do something horrible. It's not something my characters did for themselves.
As for the rest completely agree.
Sam, I would love to play one of your AE arcs - do you write any?
Thelonious Monk
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That's actually something that bugs me as well. Big time. It bugged me (to a slightly lesser extent) when that was done for Patron powers, in that we had to kowtow to the Arachnos Patrons so that they'd grant us their powers, but you could explain around those, somewhat. You can't really explain around Incarnate powers other than simply rejecting the written fiction.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
That's one reason I hatehateloathehatedetest the basic Incarnate premise. It's not real. It's lent to you by some power that might well decide at some capricious point in the future to remove its power from you or do something horrible. It's not something my characters did for themselves.
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One of the things I REALLY hate about comic books is the concept of "depowering" people. Many comic book characters start out as ordinary humans who are given powers which aren't fully integrated with their bodies, such that these powers can be taken from them. Superman needs red sunlight to be super powerful, so he gets drained if he's without it, like in Superman at Earth's End, and Kryptonite out-and-out takes his powers away and then proceeds to kill him. Well, when he's not lifting islands made of the stuff into space. I really, REALLY hate characters who lose a fight because they lost their powers. It always feels like cheating, and not like the bad guys are cheating so much as like the writer is cheating.
That's why Incarnate powers bug me - they're not ours. The well owns them. Yeah, the point of the "slow path" is that we gain power without being controlled... If you believe Ramiel, but even then, who's to say the well can't just pull the plug while I'm aiming Giant Chin Judgement at Marauder? Is that even addressed anywhere? Either way, I don't like the concept of borrowed power. It makes the Statesman look like a chump and it makes me feel like the only reason I'm better than him is because he sucks. Say what you will about Jack Emmert's baby, but beating him because he's depowered just isn't as satisfying.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Sam, I would love to play one of your AE arcs - do you write any?
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One is "The PDA That Knew" and it's my attempt to write a villain arc without a contact, depicting the villain making his own decisions, though how well that came off is in the eye of the beholder.
The other is "The Greater Evil" and it's my attempt to write a heroic arc that's both exciting and still a mystery out of the existing City of Heroes canon.
I believe both of them are levels 45-50, but I'm not sure what their ArcIDs are, as I don't have the game running at the moment. I did fix them both after the Architect censors filter broke, but I can't say if other bugs haven't been introduced. If you want to give them a shot, feel free
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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IMPROMPTU SURVEY TIME!
Please indicate whether you respect, like, and/or fear the following villains.
The Joker
Mystique
Boba Fett
Squire Trelane
Frederick Kreuger
Frankenstein's Monster
Francisco Scaramanga
Queen Beryl
V
Ozymandias
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
A quick note to the OP:
reading your original post, I can't comment on your argument - you present zero examples of villains. I have no basis on which to begin analyzing your arguments because you've presented no support for your case.
But yes, villains you can like and villains you can hate all have their place.
Where would we be today if Captain America hadn't punched Adolf Hitler in the face?
You DO realize that at the time, Hitler was popular? This is comparable to a comic book character punching the face of [insert political party here]'s most recognizable figurehead? I suppose the most appropriate analogy is with the recent sacking of a certain football coach who covered up the atrocities of a colleague. Even though those acts are universally detested and reviled there are people defending the guy that protected the monster, and they were rioting in his name.
It's important to realize that to properly create a villain you have to give the villain some really evil characteristics and also SOMETHING that they can use for political clout. For example, "He made the trains run on time." For many people this is so important that it excuses some evils, and they themselves get caught up in a slippery slope of "oh, what's a few more dead babies" kind of thing, where adding atrocities to a list that's already huge doesn't seem to change things, even though it IS a horrific situation.
You see the true best element of a villain is this: To fear a villain you must be convinced that you, in that position, with those powers, with that upbringing, would be that villain. To truly scare someone you must create a link between them and that villain that they are deeply affected by, something that makes them afraid of themselves.
Why is Magneto a good villain? because we know that we would do what he does if we were in his place.
Why is the Joker a good villain? Because he's so close to Batman's story that Batman sees a little of himself in the man.
Why is Lex Luthor a good villain? Because he is capitalism incarnate, a symbol of every single man that gained power and used it just to gain more power. We don't have to visualize ourselves in the man because we KNOW him!
Why is Willy Pete a good villain? Because there are some of us terrified of what we would do if there were no physical restraints to stop us when we're horny and if we were physically denied any kind of release. He represents the true horror of a world in which a character with that kind of power was surrounded by sexual tension and denied any form of satisfaction. Side note: warning! HIGH OCTANE NIGHTMARE FUEL!
For those of you who have read or watched the song of ice and fire, you can name nearly every character and characterize part of them as villainous. And that makes for an EPIC story.
Me? I think Heroes are defined by their villains. You START with the villain and go from there.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's actually something that bugs me as well. Big time. It bugged me (to a slightly lesser extent) when that was done for Patron powers, in that we had to kowtow to the Arachnos Patrons so that they'd grant us their powers, but you could explain around those, somewhat. You can't really explain around Incarnate powers other than simply rejecting the written fiction.
That's why Incarnate powers bug me - they're not ours. The well owns them. Yeah, the point of the "slow path" is that we gain power without being controlled... If you believe Ramiel, but even then, who's to say the well can't just pull the plug while I'm aiming Giant Chin Judgement at Marauder? Is that even addressed anywhere? Either way, I don't like the concept of borrowed power. It makes the Statesman look like a chump and it makes me feel like the only reason I'm better than him is because he sucks. Say what you will about Jack Emmert's baby, but beating him because he's depowered just isn't as satisfying. |
My charactors manage, and I scratch my head every time I see this. First of all, Prometheus said that the well is there to give individuals access to more of the universal potential than they would be able to claim on their own. Who's to say everyone can reach the same level on their own? Well you. Write your story. If you feel like running ramiel's arc, you can always say that your character is pretending to be an incarnate, while trying to accomplish X.
Second, the incarnate abilities are only the well's if you're not creative enough to make them your own. Why can your character summon a cimmeroran? The well lets you (Boring) or let's say you're a Warshade like mine, Moonshatter, and you've defeated so many Cimmerorans that their essence has imprinted on you. Instead of summoning a partial essence, every so often you can muster the ability to summon complete cimmeroran essences. Or you're like my character Necromicus, who's killed countless heroes, and is capable of pulling their souls from the afterlife forcing them to fight their former allys on his behalf (Phantoms). Or you're like my character Trueshooter, and that odd blue pet that followed you around since you saved it from Merlin's dungeon and fed trickles of your mystic energies revealed itself as the embodyment of your potential and, thanks to your care, now has enough power to fight by your side on occasion. (Imagine how giddy I was when I saw they added polar lights to the list of lore pets
)Moonshatter's judgement is the ultimate mire that focuses more on draining the enemy than strenthening himself. (Void) Necromicus has the Essence burn, that takes the shredded essences of the poor voulenteers of the Axis Amerika super soldier program and uses them to smite his enemies. Trueshooter uses a spell older than Merlin himself to summon a bolt of living lightning to attack his foes.
You either have to own it, or go with it. They can't make a system that connects with the game cannon that allows for effortless integration by players. If they don't tie the system to the trials, which are pointless if they aren't tied to the cannon, then it is a level cap increase. However, just because there are incarnate rising up everywhere, doesn't mean you have to be powered by the well. If you like the story for your character, use it. If you like the story, but not for your characters, use it as a backdrop. If you don't like the story, get your powers and continue your RPs in your base.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Yes, they can. Ancillaries, added to the game as far back as I2, did it perfectly, and I'm amazed how the development team has refused to repeat that success a single time since. Every new pool has been tied to "something" in the storyline. Well, here's the thing - I didn't pick an Epic AT because I wasn't interested in being part of the ongoing storyline. I picked a generic AT and I'm looking for more like my Ancillary power pool.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
You either have to own it, or go with it. They can't make a system that connects with the game cannon that allows for effortless integration by players.
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More to point, you're ignoring what I actually said: "You can't really explain around Incarnate powers other than simply rejecting the written fiction." What you're doing is simply rejecting written fiction. The fiction tells you that the Well of the Furies grants you the ability to summon the essence of a Praetorian, but you interject and say "No, narrator, you're wrong. I reject your reality and substitute my own. I summon my own power because I've fought them so much. It's not the well at all."
The problem with rejecting fiction is then there simply are no rules and I can claim anything I want. I can claim that this is all a dream and the Statesman is actually a woman. I can claim this is a post-apocalyptic Earth and everyone just forgot. I can claim that my character could finger-flick the planet out of existence, but he, uh... Just doesn't want to... Right now. Maybe later. I can "pretend" any damn thing I want, but by rejecting established canon and substituting my whims, I make established canon meaningless not just in that instance, but I make it meaningless as a general thing.
I'm not a fan of being railroaded by existing storylines, but simply dismissing existing storylines out of hand is even worse.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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To quote the Tom Smith song "Rocket Ride":
"....
Give me a villain with style and grace, and a little bit of fencing skill.
They used to be angular, sneering, and bald.
If someone got killed even they were appalled.
They tried to marry the heroine, no thought of ****,
and they sure as hell knew how to wear a cape!
They never tortured, they never lied.
They'd honor a promise if it meant they died.
Let's find a villain with professional pride.
Come on with me, baby, on a rocket ride!"
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Sadly, I simply haven't seen or read enough about these villains to know. I appreciate the articles on them, but reading about a villain on an encyclopaedia isn't really the same as actually experiencing a story about said villain.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
IMPROMPTU SURVEY TIME!
Please indicate whether you respect, like, and/or fear the following villains. The Joker Mystique Boba Fett Squire Trelane Frederick Kreuger Frankenstein's Monster Francisco Scaramanga Queen Beryl V Ozymandias |
What I've seen of the Joker (from Arkham Asylum) wasn't very respectful, to be honest. He has his moments, but he spends so much time being goofy it acts against his menace and just ends up making him silly. I get that that's the point, but it doesn't work for me.
Mystique I've only seen from the 90s X-Men Cartoons, and I found her to be an interesting villain until they started exploring the "rogue's mother" angle, whereupon she became winy and never recovered. So did Rogue, for that matter. The only Fox cartoon that did drama well was Spider-Man, and even that had its fumbles. Most of what sunk Mystique for me, though, is she never did anything. She messed with people to little effect, occasionally pulled out a completely ineffectual gun and got slapped around a lot. And was mostly a henchman... Henchwoman, whatever.
Boba Fett is... A fad. I don't get what people see in him. He had like a 10-second scene in... What was it, Empire Strikes back? Return of the Jedi? He had almost no screen time, I don't think he said anything and someone decapitated him. Or do I remember wrong? I know he became an inexplicable "expanded universe" favourite, but I've never had any interest in the Star Wars expanded universe, so making all the clones be clones of him was just... A "huh?" moment. Not awesome, not terrible, just "Oh, OK. So that's who these guys are. I guess." I don't remember him doing anything awesome or being awesome. He had a jet pack, but that's about it. Well, and a helmet that the Silencer from Crusader ripped off, and ironically, Crusader: No Regret's Silencer is a much more respectable character, I'd say
Frankenstein's Monster really depends on the interpretation. The original monster really doesn't impress me, mostly because the original book and movie are more a cautionary tale against the evils of science than a proper "good vs. evil" story, hence I'm not sure if the monster counts as a villain or if Dr. Frankenstein himself does. He's shown up around fiction since, and ironically enough I think the one I like the most has been Frankenstein's monster from Hellsing, the live action movie. There, the monster manages to be played as a tragic but still heroic figure, probably the only truly good person in that whole damn movie, and he does get to swing on a wire across a crumbling stone bridge so that's something
Sadly, the monster is less a character and more a McGuffin on legs in that movie, but when it does get to do anything, I can respect the idea, at least.The rest I simply don't know enough about to comment.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Read what I said again. You can't make a system that connects with game cannon that allows for effortless integration by players. Ancillaries were not tied to game cannon. They were an expansion of the leveling system without a cannon reason. Patron pools were the opposite, they were an expansion of the leveling system tied to cannon. Ancillaries would be a good example for not needing lore to expand the leveling system, but not an example of how to use lore to expand the system. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yes, they can. Ancillaries, added to the game as far back as I2, did it perfectly, and I'm amazed how the development team has refused to repeat that success a single time since. Every new pool has been tied to "something" in the storyline. Well, here's the thing - I didn't pick an Epic AT because I wasn't interested in being part of the ongoing storyline. I picked a generic AT and I'm looking for more like my Ancillary power pool.
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You don't want to be part of this story (Incarnates and praetoria), you don't like it, and I get that. The thing is, that's not what they're doing now. Taking it further, what they're doing now isn't bad you just don't like it. Just because you don't like it, doesn't automatically make it bad. I don't like country music. That doesn't make country music bad, it's just not my taste.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
More to point, you're ignoring what I actually said: "You can't really explain around Incarnate powers other than simply rejecting the written fiction." What you're doing is simply rejecting written fiction. The fiction tells you that the Well of the Furies grants you the ability to summon the essence of a Praetorian, but you interject and say "No, narrator, you're wrong. I reject your reality and substitute my own. I summon my own power because I've fought them so much. It's not the well at all."
The problem with rejecting fiction is then there simply are no rules and I can claim anything I want. I can claim that this is all a dream and the Statesman is actually a woman. I can claim this is a post-apocalyptic Earth and everyone just forgot. I can claim that my character could finger-flick the planet out of existence, but he, uh... Just doesn't want to... Right now. Maybe later. I can "pretend" any damn thing I want, but by rejecting established canon and substituting my whims, I make established canon meaningless not just in that instance, but I make it meaningless as a general thing. I'm not a fan of being railroaded by existing storylines, but simply dismissing existing storylines out of hand is even worse. |
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| You tap into the power of the Netherworld to protect yourself from damage. This Dark Embrace Shrouds you and grants resistance to Lethal, Smashing, Negative Energy, and Toxic Damage. Recharge: Fast |
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
*edit*
You know what? Not worth it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Only one version: Mark Hamil's. There is one scene where a bunch of crimelords are auctioning a nuke and joker walks in and starts bidding nothing. "Zip, zilch, nada, skip, zero, a great big check for zero dollars drawn from the first international bank of skidoo!" then opens his coat to show he's in a suicide bomber vest and steals the thing. He's been caught simply because his getaway car ran out of gas because he has no money. But he can still beat out nearly all of the high-tech super funded villains. I love that.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
IMPROMPTU SURVEY TIME!
Please indicate whether you respect, like, and/or fear the following villains. The Joker |
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| Mystique |
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| Boba Fett |
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| Squire Trelane |
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| Frederick Kreuger |
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| Frankenstein's Monster |
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| Francisco Scaramanga |
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| Queen Beryl |
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| V |
Ozymandias[/QUOTE][/quote]
neither in the comic, nor the movie. Way to reliant on moral relativity and I cannot respect anyone dumb enough to hold to that philosophy. Also, the one in the movie came off as an idiot, not a genius.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
As an addendum, sometimes you just mess around with villains, add one, and see if they like it. Because sometimes you're wrong and the fans are right.
This character in particular was created completely as a costume experiment. The "blast" effect to me looked different, and I tried turning the negative space of the costume into something else. Rather than it being tights ruined by fighting, I made the overall costume into paint or slime or frosting or something that was sorta slapped on.
And the idea of a character wearing vanilla frosting as armor (since blast is semi-transparent on the back, it looked like it was simply thinner in certain sections) created the persona. The character's bio evolved from that and it became my favorite character.
It wasn't until years later that I had the ability to change the colors of my secondary and dark miasma became vanilla frosting colored (well it still looks odd, but it's supposed to be mutagenic, so...)
Point is that you HAVE to experiment with new ideas. Nothing ever gets done right by doing what someone else already did. If you can't put your own spin on it and twist it around so that it's seen from a new angle, you've failed!
And that goes for villain design too. Good thing there will always be new ways to do villainy.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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Boba Fett I can explain and yes it is purely down to the Expanded Universe stuff, especially the Bounty Hunters stories (I think it was called Stories form the Cantina...that may be something else entirely, not a huge star wars fan).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Boba Fett is... A fad. I don't get what people see in him. He had like a 10-second scene in... What was it, Empire Strikes back? Return of the Jedi? He had almost no screen time, I don't think he said anything and someone decapitated him. Or do I remember wrong? I know he became an inexplicable "expanded universe" favourite, but I've never had any interest in the Star Wars expanded universe, so making all the clones be clones of him was just... A "huh?" moment. Not awesome, not terrible, just "Oh, OK. So that's who these guys are. I guess." I don't remember him doing anything awesome or being awesome. He had a jet pack, but that's about it. Well, and a helmet that the Silencer from Crusader ripped off, and ironically, Crusader: No Regret's Silencer is a much more respectable character, I'd say
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Basically Boba Fett, in the Expanded Universe, is a Bounty Hunter with an honor code, much like Leon from the film of the same name (he will kill or capture anyone but doesn't go after women or children etc.).
However my prefered bounty hunter was always IG-88 (the assassin robot you see in that line up), while he only appears in that one scene in the Empire Strikes back, the Expanded universe turned him into a complete badass, sure he had no moral code and the guy was a complete villain in every sense but damn was the guy awesome.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
I respect Flambeaux