Provoke on it's own is rarely enough to hold aggro for an extended period. it can hold aggro for a short period, which is often enough against minions but against tougher foes you might have trouble. Taunt effects multiply the aggro gained from damage so it is best to follow provoke up with an attack of some sort in order to maximize the amount of aggro you get.
Additionally while it makes enemies attack you it doesn't stop them from moving so combining it with an immobilize (either Web Grenade or an AoE immobilize from one of the epic pools) is also a useful option.
I don't know how great it is at levels higher than 24 but I find teleport enemy with some accuracy mods highly effective at grabbing runners and isolating problematic enemies in a mob before engaging. Especially when you have some nasty debuffs waiting for them. Sometimes you can snatch people without their allies noticing. Surrounded, knocked down, and slowed/paralyzed is a tough way to start a fight. Love this with my robot/time MM. A more experienced friend tells me there's been a long-standing preference for taunt skills over TP. I have no idea why. It's fun like sniping and stealth killing at the same time and let's you start the fight in places that are hard for allies to get to.
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This is good advice. imho. Debuff effects also carry relatively high threat values, and your proximity to the enemy also affects threat so if you have a secondary with strong AoE/PBAoE debuffs like DM or Time they're likely to make better use of it than a mostly buffing/healing set.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Provoke on it's own is rarely enough to hold aggro for an extended period. it can hold aggro for a short period, which is often enough against minions but against tougher foes you might have trouble. Taunt effects multiply the aggro gained from damage so it is best to follow provoke up with an attack of some sort in order to maximize the amount of aggro you get.
Additionally while it makes enemies attack you it doesn't stop them from moving so combining it with an immobilize (either Web Grenade or an AoE immobilize from one of the epic pools) is also a useful option. |
I made two builds with my Robot/Time MM. One had Provoke and the other I just ran my debuff aura and took TP self.
I find I hold far more aggro by turning on my debuff aura after TP-self into the center of the spawn, and what aggro I don't hold, my 'bots grab pretty quickly.
With Provoke, even with TP Self, I just wasn't near as effective.
This may be more a comment on /Time than anything else.
I'm sorry, but your post was a little fuzzy on some of the important details so I'm not sure how close to the mark my response will be.
Because of the nature of how Provoke works, I can't help but feel we may not be getting a complete picture of what was actually happening. It sounds like you used two completely different strategies for each of the builds: one where you stayed back and just used provoke, and one where you teleported to the center of the group with your PBAoE debuff running.
As stated in posts above, Provoke effects are not "automatic aggro" buttons, they act as a threat modifiers, multiplying threat generated by a factor of its remaining duration. Your distance to the target also affects your threat. In layman's terms, if all you do is stand in the back spamming it it's not going to do much of anything.
An ideal use of Provoke would be to combine both of those strategies together: teleport or jumpinto the middle of the group, provoke when you get there, and then hit everything with Time's Juncture or your other attacks/debuffs like you would normally.
Yes, provoke is not taunt. A mastermind has to be very active to keep the attention to him. Mastermind pets I believe have an inherently higher threat level so to keep the damage going through you and not directly to your pets requires alot of attention grabbing.
Provoke is good for AV and boss fights, however despite being AoE, it is marginally ineffective in holding group aggro since it only hits a maximum of 5 targets, it has to be spammed a fair bit to keep the foes on you and even then there will always be a few loose cannons still wailing on your pets. If you plan on using BG mode alot and want the attention to come through you then yes provoke is what you want.
Provoke is a must-have for my MMs. Fully slotted it is accurate, lasts several seconds, and recharges quickly for stacking or pulling more groups. My MMs are tanks relying on bodyguard mode, and if I want to do this on higher than the lowest diff, two things are needed: I need to keep the agro, for evenly distributed dmg, and I need an aoe heal.
It works like a charm for me. Dunno what some of these guys are talking about with "it's not a taunt." And yes Kenji I can stand back and spam and keep the agro.
Powerleveling� -- "For when there are no cheat codes."
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To be fair, I never said it wasn't taunt. I said it was not an "auto aggro" button, which is true. It does not automatically force an enemy to attack you; it works as a threat multiplier. That multiplier decays and becomes weaker over its duration. Unlike most other taunt effects (Primary taunt powers, gauntlet, some auras,) it also has a hit check in PVE. None of these things make it a bad power but they're things that should be taken into account.|
Originally Posted by Death_Before_PL
Provoke is a must-have for my MMs. Fully slotted it is accurate, lasts several seconds, and recharges quickly for stacking or pulling more groups. My MMs are tanks relying on bodyguard mode, and if I want to do this on higher than the lowest diff, two things are needed: I need to keep the agro, for evenly distributed dmg, and I need an aoe heal.
It works like a charm for me. Dunno what some of these guys are talking about with "it's not a taunt." And yes Kenji I can stand back and spam and keep the agro. |
You can use taunt at range effectively, so long as you're doing something to generate threat. The point I was trying to get across was that it paired particularly well with masterminds that want to be standing in the fray anyway, as threat is also modified by distance.
Aggro mechanics are complicated. Whether or not you stand to benefit from Taunt is decidedly less so: if you're tanking for your pets, it's usually a pretty solid pick.
Currently, my Ninja/Time MM has provoke. I looked at it as a way of being able to abuse bodyguard for taking the "alpha" strike from a mob. The funny part is with all my +Defense I rarely take any real damage. And, Barrier soaks up what does get through.
I will also use provoke to keep the harder hitting mobs directed at me so they aren't 1-shotting my ninjas. It does tend to work, since, again, I operate with a lot of defenses that pretty much negate incoming damage. In fact, I run aggressive more than defensive.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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I think it's the latter. Based on playing my Time Defender I'm confident in saying that Time's Juncture generates a lot of aggro (due to the high magnitude debuffs). So while Provoke will cause Time's Juncture to generate even more aggro I'm not surprised that you find TJ alone to be sufficient.
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Originally Posted by Crysys
This may be more a comment on /Time than anything else.
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What he actually said was "Provoke is not Taunt". It is (as several people have commented) a taunt effect but it is not as good as Taunt. In addition to not being auto-hit it has a much lower duration and lacks a range debuff.|
Originally Posted by Death_Before_PL
It works like a charm for me. Dunno what some of these guys are talking about with "it's not a taunt." And yes Kenji I can stand back and spam and keep the agro.
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What this means is that to really hold aggro well an MM needs to work harder than a tank.
it works for av's and gm's but you need to slot it up and spam it.
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+1. I find once you're all DEF'ed up, you don't need to run BG as much. I try to do everything I can to keep the damage off of my pets, that involves using Provoke as part of my "attack chain"|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
I will also use provoke to keep the harder hitting mobs directed at me so they aren't 1-shotting my ninjas. It does tend to work, since, again, I operate with a lot of defenses that pretty much negate incoming damage. In fact, I run aggressive more than defensive.
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MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
I find that provoke only becomes critical when fighting very tough targets such as AVs or GMs. Depending on the secondary, usually normal use of powers is usually enough to draw aggro for the alpha and beta attacks so long as the MM leads; beyond that there isn't as much need for provoke. But with AVs/GMs, they hang on for a while and so I find provoke that much more useful, especially to keep the pets from falling prey to AoE attacks.
Also, provoke only hits 5 targets max which limits its usefulness in large enough spawns. No such problems against AVs, etc.
Well, running Time Manipulation, I would say I probably have access to 3 great aggro control/grabbing powers already. I have Time's Juncture, my slow/hold patch, and Slowed Response. So, in terms of leading off a fight, Provoke is not necessarily my "go to" power. I would rather be throwing down debuffs to start off. But, I find Provoke is excellent for helping to keep the mobs operating within parameters that are favorable to me. Namely, all of the heavy fire is aimed at me where my high defenses absorb the vast majority before Bodyguard even needs to kick in.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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Agreed. Jump into the fight with Time's Junction running, drop Distortion Field, hold a boss with Time Crawl/Time Stop, toss out Slowed Response and then I look for Lts to Provoke. Works like magic. Only have to use Temporal Healing maybe every 3/4 spawns now that my Defenses are starting to become useful.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Well, running Time Manipulation, I would say I probably have access to 3 great aggro control/grabbing powers already. I have Time's Juncture, my slow/hold patch, and Slowed Response. So, in terms of leading off a fight, Provoke is not necessarily my "go to" power. I would rather be throwing down debuffs to start off. But, I find Provoke is excellent for helping to keep the mobs operating within parameters that are favorable to me. Namely, all of the heavy fire is aimed at me where my high defenses absorb the vast majority before Bodyguard even needs to kick in.
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Can't wait for perma-Power Boosted Farsight.
Beowulf -
Too many Alts, not enough 50's. Story of my life...
I had provoke on my bots/traps at first, slotted 2 acc\ 2 rech \ 1 taunt.
Even with hasten and the appropriate IOs, I would still lose an AVs focus...
So, I went to taunt from the presence pool instead; the faster recharge time made it possible to spam as part of my attack chain, taunt/web/trops/taunt/web... popped in the psi damage IO for some added damage...
I never had issue keeping an AVs attention again.
I know I can't taunt a crowd, but honestly, the pets melt regular mobs, why was I concerned about them.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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Sorry, I should have been more clear.|
Originally Posted by Kenji_Naginata
I'm sorry, but your post was a little fuzzy on some of the important details so I'm not sure how close to the mark my response will be.
Because of the nature of how Provoke works, I can't help but feel we may not be getting a complete picture of what was actually happening. It sounds like you used two completely different strategies for each of the builds: one where you stayed back and just used provoke, and one where you teleported to the center of the group with your PBAoE debuff running. As stated in posts above, Provoke effects are not "automatic aggro" buttons, they act as a threat modifiers, multiplying threat generated by a factor of its remaining duration. Your distance to the target also affects your threat. In layman's terms, if all you do is stand in the back spamming it it's not going to do much of anything. An ideal use of Provoke would be to combine both of those strategies together: teleport or jumpinto the middle of the group, provoke when you get there, and then hit everything with Time's Juncture or your other attacks/debuffs like you would normally. |
On my Bots/Time MM, I've had a build with both Times Juncture _AND_ Provoke. What I found was that TP'ing self into spawn with TJ running generated tremendous amounts of aggro. As such, Provoke was pretty much a wasted power choice for my particular playstyle. I dropped it on a respec at 41 but really quit using it past 32.
The way I look at it, as a /Time, why bother Provoking something I can hold and/or debuff and still get their attention? Not to mention, by being a combat teleporter, my bots start every attack from range so any attack that is NOT thrown at me from my aggro-grab is a ranged attack and therefore less damaging than a melee hit to my bots.
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I couldn't agree less. However, it's what works for the player. I don't 'run in BG mode' - I use it situationally, and this may have something to do with it.|
Originally Posted by Death_Before_PL
Provoke is a must-have for my MMs.
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And I don't care too much if henchies die. Yes, it's a hassle to re-summon and buff (it's really not a significant hassle now, just a minor one), and unless it's a tough fight, not life-threatening.
Horses for courses, though...
I'm tired of GMs and AVs running from me and focusing their attention at my minions so I'm thinking, will taking provoke eliminate both issues? I don't have experience with this taunt power, will it be strong enough to keep the mob in one place so I can get full use out of traps while my pets are blasting away?