One Dark Armor change
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-10-30 13:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I said that they "can" get hit by every secondary effect going. Speaking generally that's logical no?
|
Originally Posted by Pitho
Aren't all the debuffs from the enemies you're testing on autohit?
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
A good rule of thumb is, if EvilRyu says it, it's wrong. Don't wear yourself out trying to argue against unserious positions.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
My first DA was a Spines Scrapper before IOs, I made it work. *shrugs* It takes getting used to it all for sure, but I wouldn't say it's only playable by one AT.
|
Dark Regen relies on Acc. There is already so little Acc on CoF. OG relies on Acc.
60%+ resistance to -Tohit in Cloak of Darkness.
Something so that you don't blow your endurance away on Dark Regen without a heal as many times as you might do currently. CoF and OG won't necessarily be as much of the half hearted picks they are.
Failing that, then maybe fix the accuracy of those powers so that they can not be debuffed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
So what you're saying is that Dark Armour should not have unique needs? That somehow having a challenge that nobody else has is something that needs to be 'fixed?'
Quote:
more than a fire/elec/WP tanker ?|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Without IOs/incarnate powers, Dark tankers struggle against AVs considerably if you remove all other buffs/debuffs and just compare performance.
|
with only SO, it has more S/L def than all those powersets, and more overall resist, with a better heal, so ... what's your point ?
you can slot cloak of fear for even more -to hit debuff !
English isn't my birth language, so don't blame me if I do some mistakes. thank you !
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
So what you're saying is that Dark Armour should not have unique needs? That somehow having a challenge that nobody else has is something that needs to be 'fixed?'
|
I am not 100% certain about who this question is for, but if it was me saying that I would of come out and said it. Dark Armour has unique needs, no one said it shouldn't have. Res to tohit debuffs still leaves some tohit to be desired. A challenge can be found more ways than one. I look it at it as putting balance before challenge. Maybe thats fairer. Tohit debuffs can be avoided or overcome, but so can alot of other things. Regarding balance each powerset should have its fair share of self sustainability, that's what I am thinking here. I do think I think its conceptually right that a set should resist what it can bestow. Elecs drain end and then resist end drain. It'll still be taking some debuffing just not as much, leading to less wasted endurance for no heal over time.
I found versus Pantheon, that theyre pretty much just as easy no matter what set I play until I came to Fiery Aura, then Fiery Aura got buffed. Now with Dark Armour, Dark Armour has it slightly tougher, slightly tougher than Fiery Aura before it got buffed. It tells me that by 20 something is lacking. Much of Darks survivability relies on accuracy. One could pop insps but I like to feel the basic build, built on same slotting principles when trying to feel balance. Less wasted endurance through powers such as CoF, OG and DR missing the better for people leveling up. Not everyone will afford a well built toon at 50 and not everyone can make one anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Well maybe we got 2 different standards as to whats playable than whats not. What I consider playable is not having to worry about endurance so much. You should not have to pace yourself so much with this set. Think about it like this, the devs have done alot recently to make the first 20 levels of the game alot smoother on leveling. One huge change was the stamina at level 2 thing and speeding up the default sprint speed, and travel powers earlier. So whats wrong with having things a bit easier so its not a struggle from 1-50? I get that some folks still want a challenge but thats what slotting TO's past level 12 is for.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
My first DA was a Spines Scrapper before IOs, I made it work. *shrugs* It takes getting used to it all for sure, but I wouldn't say it's only playable by one AT.
|
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
I guess I should have explained better. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Terrible idea. If you're fighting more than 4 people, it will always drain your endurance, despite not healing more than hitting 2.
|
Max endurance would be equal to the current cost of the power, which is 18 IIRC. IT would be NO different than how much endurance you use now.
I hope that clears it up.
EDIT: I've played Dark Armor for a loooooong time. My first 50 was a Elm/DA Brute back in 2007. Most of my experience was before IOs and the dismissive attitude they brought to any balance argument. Using DR against 1 target is a waste of endurance and should be scaled (IMO of course).
To summarize:
1 target hit, 33% of current end cost of DR or 6 endurance
2 targets hit, 12 endurance
3+ targets hit, 18 endurance
Lastly, there are a handful of changes I promoted over the years but once IOs came I dropped a couple.* One that I still think needs review is the additional of a tohit debuff in Death Shroud. Thsi fits thematically with the set and also would explain why DS' damage is lower compared to other damage auras that do not carry a secondary effect.
*The main one I dropped was changing Soul Transfer into a new power similar to Eclipse but that was more of a dream since it broke the 'cottage rule.'
Quote:
So you are of the opinion that dark armour is significantly underbalanced, and its unique position of being challenged differently by tohit debuffs than other armour sets is not as important as overcoming this significant inability to compete.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I am not 100% certain about who this question is for, but if it was me saying that I would of come out and said it. Dark Armour has unique needs, no one said it shouldn't have. Res to tohit debuffs still leaves some tohit to be desired. A challenge can be found more ways than one.
|
I think that's an interesting position, but I also think it's an unprovable, unfalsifiable position. Dark armour's fine, it's not a rarity, and any scrapper, brute, or tank who wants to whine about being slightly ahead or slightly behind in any way can jump up my butt. It's this same line of thinking that feels like the regen crowd thinking they need -regen protection. Then you compare the set overall to the other sets on the numbers, and you arrive where Arcanaville is - that the set is stupid bonkers good.
And then people come on the forums and suggest buffs to one of the best armour sets in the game.
Gotta say, you're going to have to provide some data and not just 'the way I test tanks.'
Quote:
Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I quite like that idea.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I guess I should have explained better.
|
I also agree with Death Shroud's debuff, and have said as much on my own before. Right now, though, there is Icicles, which it compares directly to.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Unlike attacks, self defense powers are not balanced in issolation, but as part of a whole set. Just because Fire Armor gets to have Healing Flames, does not mean Regen can have the same (and you will see both heals are different.) Same goes for Dark Armor, you cant justify a change to it's heal just because another set has the heal you want.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
That's a good point and I completely agree. I don't think the recharge would need to be affected at all - the idea is that the heal/end cost/recharge would be in line with reconstruction/healing flames except that it requires a tohit check, which would be the balancing factor.
|
Dark Regen has a high endurance cost not to pay for the heal, but precisely to avoid you using it often. The goal is for you to be able to heal to full in a croud, to be weaker against single foes, and to not do it too often. That is the design for the set. If you remove that penalty, you force the devs to use a standard technique to prevent you from using it often: recharge.
Quote:
| No doubt many players can get away with underslotting for acc since one hit = massive heal and heavily slot for endurance cost. With full end cost slotting, it STILL hits your blue bar hard. |
Quote:
| For those arguing about CoF, the same argument could be made - you can easily get around the accuracy and end problems with slotting. |
That is part of the intended design of Dark Armor, even after the many balance visits. It's not a set for you to turn on every toggle and forget about them, its intended for you to pick the aura that best suits the current situation and use it. CoF can be extremely redundant, and should you be facing end issues it should be the first toggle to go out the window. Same with Death Shroud for tanks since you can fall ack on Oppressive Gloom as your main taunt aura as early as lvl 26.
Quote:
If you consider no immob or KB protection are issues, then the thread should address solutions to those points directly. |
Originally Posted by Eldagore
yes, and you have no immob protection or KB protection either. I understand the idea you present, but your comparison is apples and oranges as invuln gives complete mez protection in this comparison. you would have to add accro and CoD, and then protection values likely will not compare well as DA should come out on top at that point- but it's endo use should be higher also.
How does that scenario play out if you use SR or WP or something different like ninjitsu? |
Endurance cost reduction in Dark Regen will not compensate for those issues. Reduce the end cost of Dark Regen and in a few weeks you will see other users asking for a different buff in the name of lack of KB and Immob protection.
I actually would find a case for native KB protection a much more valid one than a case for buffing Dark Regen. I would even advocate it myself, since its insane to tank without KB protection in this game. The only issue there is that IO's negate most arguments on the topic and it may be hard [not impossible] to push such a change just for the sake of free players.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
1. I know CoD gives immob protection, thats why I said you would need to add it for your invuln comparison. And accro for the KB hole.
|
It's not too different in that sense from Fire Armor, who's Immob is only available after landing a burn patch.
I can't say which is more ridiculous: that we're up past 100 posts on yet another "dark need buff!" thread, or that the pro-buff position is being sustained by one-sentence non-replies and people are bothering to put thought and effort into detailed rebuttals.
It is obvious that dark armor does not need any buffs, dark armor is not going to get any buffs, but sufficient lobbying may land it a nerf. Think we're nearly there yet?
I agree with PleaseRecycle, if anything this thread only shows that the issue is not with Dark Armor but with some specific players and especially that dark regen is fine overall. So what's the point now ? Get some dev attention on a fine, fun and challenging set and have it nerfed to the ground to fit the casual free players who don't want to invest a single cent into the game and learn its mechanics ?
Dark Armor is the only armor set i want to play, all my melee characters are /DA for a reason, it's one of the most fun melee defense playstyle i've had in any game and it's part of what draws me back to CoH most of the time. So it can't be *that* bad, and i'd say it's far from nerf worthy as long as we have some ridiculous powersets around like fire armor or shield. And that last one is probably in the same category as well, as far as i remember shield with SOs is pretty much a worthless end hog compared to a fully slotted lvl 50 shield toon.
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
Quote:
Its even more ridiculous when dopes read threads and then make a cry baby post about the thread within the thread. How about you just pass and move on.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I can't say which is more ridiculous: that we're up past 100 posts on yet another "dark need buff!" thread, or that the pro-buff position is being sustained by one-sentence non-replies and people are bothering to put thought and effort into detailed rebuttals.
It is obvious that dark armor does not need any buffs, dark armor is not going to get any buffs, but sufficient lobbying may land it a nerf. Think we're nearly there yet? |
I would like DR and DS buffed with the two minor changes. I think it would help make the set more rounded acorss all levels. DR can be painful in the twenties and early thirties, and giving DS a tohit debuff would help out CoD and the defensive nature of the set.
If the worst that could come of threads like these were you wasting your own time, I'd not give it a second thought. Unfortunately it could have the side effect of screwing up a set I personally enjoy playing and it is at this point that I feel compelled to contribute.
That's enough. All of you are now attacking each other - as I have stated multiple times, this is to gather responses to that possible change and nothing more.
I have played devil's advocate in this thread for spurring thoughtful responses and I have received the information. Please stop attacking each other.
I was asked to gauge responses to this possible change that addresses the largest complaint in all 7+ years of Dark Armor history, which has always been endurance cost. You can feel free to discuss it but let's be a bit more civil mmmkay? 
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
You are the one putting the words where they don't exist "with me"|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
So you are of the opinion that dark armour is significantly underbalanced, and its unique position of being challenged differently by tohit debuffs than other armour sets is not as important as overcoming this significant inability to compete.
|
A developer only needs to read peoples suggestions, use what is within his/her own means to decide what is the right or wrong suggestion.
People can propose with whatever means they feel that are necessary, even if it is with their heart. You shouldn't be looking to claim a victory on the internet putting words where they don't exist for the sake of your ego with what is a unproven position from you because you can't back up what you say comfortably.
I am a mechanical engineer. I could excel the bleep out of the game far beyond any necessary means and show it but we all come here for fun. Leave all suggestions for a Dev to read. I've been asleep and now I will be gaming. I have a certain amount of trust in a Dev to come up with a decision based on their intel.
Edit: One other thing, determining balance through playing, taking notes and putting into excel takes months, not a couple of weeks, or 2 days. It'll take along time to reverse engineer properly. So if a thread has been about a couple of days and I haven't gone bosh with piles of information then take that as a normality. Four years ago I could of gone bosh but the game has changed and I didn't keep going with it. It's nerdier than anyone needs to be for something you don't get paid to do.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
I think you're misunderstanding me in this context. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
You are the one putting the words where they don't exist "with me"
|
I find your individual manner of expression very confusing. I'm restating what I read from what you said, and explaining my response to that because I'm not sure if that's what you actually mean.
Right now, I don't think there is any need for balance-related changes to Dark Armour - need in this case meaning 'if this is not done, the population of this armour set will fall significantly and permanently.' I don't think any armour set is significantly behind the others for the archetypes that get them.
Quote:
That's true, but again, no one ever said or hinted at that.
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I think you're misunderstanding me in this context.
I find your individual manner of expression very confusing. I'm restating what I read from what you said, and explaining my response to that because I'm not sure if that's what you actually mean. Right now, I don't think there is any need for balance-related changes to Dark Armour - need in this case meaning 'if this is not done, the population of this armour set will fall significantly and permanently.' I don't think any armour set is significantly behind the others for the archetypes that get them. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
Then why even bother? File this one under cat-flaps for Fort Trident and dedicate the brain trust to getting attention on other things that are bugs, or are causing problems.
|
Originally Posted by JayboH
That's true, but again, no one ever said or hinted at that.
|
Maybe you missed what I said: I was asked to poll the boards regarding this change idea.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
Still think it's unneeded. All it needs imo will continue to be, the ability to cap it's Negative Energy Resist on it's own.
|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Maybe you missed what I said: I was asked to poll the boards regarding this change idea.
|
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
*ducks in*
And more accuracy on CoF
*ducks out*
I am going to say something I don't normally ever say to anything other than Sonic and the new Poison recently.
"I believe that the Dark Armour set does indeed need something of a buff."
Firetanks recieved a buff in the way of a Res Multi in Temp Prot a long while back I think.
Memory so vague.
There were reasons for the buff to Fiery and I feel that for similar reasons Dark Armour could do with something similar, not the same but definitely something you can have by lvl 20.
I am adamant about it now after testing Dark Armour under the conditions I always test Tankers. The only one to undergo this test of mine, and its a go play different factions type of test is Electric so I might see probs with that too.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.