Can one solo a monster?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2011-10-26 13:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Damn I was hoping it was 184/s becos that makes my character sounds alot more impressive lol
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
It is 92hp/s I believe. For lvl 50 that is, and not counting Reichsman. I'm not sure where the 184 number came from.
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I was curious, so I took my favorite Brute and her Cimerorans to the Hive just now. Stropharia lasted six minutes or a little less.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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my bad, when i wrote that i think my mind was on the lore pet DPS thread 184 is the DPS required to beat a normal AVs regen
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
It is 92hp/s I believe. For lvl 50 that is, and not counting Reichsman. I'm not sure where the 184 number came from.
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Well if 92 is the actual dps needed, it would be a VERY slow rate if you were around that number. Most people who take down AVs are doing at least 130 dps so that the health bar movement is visible. Like when my fire/rad troller takes down AVs, I can see the bar moving pretty steadily, but on GMs, it's a sloooooow crawl down, because I'm barely overcoming their higher regen rate.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Damn I was hoping it was 184/s becos that makes my character sounds alot more impressive lol
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
my bad, when i wrote that i think my mind was on the lore pet DPS thread 184 is the DPS required to beat a normal AVs regen
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there was a very large thread from a little while ago that went through and calculated all of the lore pets DPS using a rikti pylon, 184 dps was the minimum number to beat the AV regen|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Still not sure what you're saying here. Is it that a certain Lore Pet deals 184? It's coincidentally double of what I recall AV regen to be, but again, I'm getting the 92 off of memory, not any hard facts. Though I'm certain it is in the 90's, not in the 180's.
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(i couldnt find the thread started about it but i did find the results data in the rikti pylon results thread, their post about it is here)
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Hmm, not sure where I was thinking 90s from then. Or wait, is that the dps needed to take them down before the pet auto despawns?
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
there was a very large thread from a little while ago that went through and calculated all of the lore pets DPS using a rikti pylon, 184 dps was the minimum number to beat the AV regen
(i couldnt find the thread started about it but i did find the results data in the rikti pylon results thread, their post about it is here) |
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you said the 94hp/sec was the regen, to overcome that regen you need about 184 dmg per sec|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Hmm, not sure where I was thinking 90s from then. Or wait, is that the dps needed to take them down before the pet auto despawns?
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in the post i linked the pets with 184 dps or greater were able to effectively solo the AV without any help
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Well if they regen 94, then you only "need" 95 dps to overcome it, but that will take forever. So I'm assuming you mean 184 dps on the pets would solo the AV within the pet's time limit.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
you said the 94hp/sec was the regen, to overcome that regen you need about 184 dmg per sec
in the post i linked the pets with 184 dps or greater were able to effectively solo the AV without any help |
I've soloed the Kraken, Babbage, Jurassik, Eochai, Jack in Irons, Sally 
, Adamastor, every DE Monster, and the Kronos Titan on my DM/SD with lore pets. I've also done some of the lower level ones without Lore pets, and could solo most of them with my DPS alone if I could keep 10 targets in melee range at all times.
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for the 2nd point yes, those will solo an AV before they despawn|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Well if they regen 94, then you only "need" 95 dps to overcome it, but that will take forever. So I'm assuming you mean 184 dps on the pets would solo the AV within the pet's time limit.
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and i think for this that test that i linked they needed 184 dps in order to actually kill the AV before they despawned but i dont recall exactly if they ones that did less managed to significantly dmg the pylon before despawning
Halloween Eochai in Grandville Has .5% Regeneration regen For 353.4 HPS, this is according to a power analyzer and the combat attributes.
With a 500% debuff (GMs have AV resistance, Yes?) they would end up with .325% regen or 5% evey 15s instead of 10 which looks to be 235.6 HPS.
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#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Weird math in this topic.
Regarding monsters, it's worth noting unlike giant monsters, DE monsters have levels, ranging from (IIRC) 47 to 50. That also means your alpha level shift applies, so you can be fighting a monster that is essentially -4 to you (multiplying your efficiency, your damage). They also have widely different resistances, Lattices are extremely vulnerable to smashing whereas Quarries are very sturdy against lethal.
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I know /traps is probably the few secondary with a >500% degen, are there others? cos It looks like those GMs are still pretty impossible to solo even with -500% on them.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Halloween Eochai in Grandville Has .5% Regeneration regen For 353.4 HPS, this is according to a power analyzer and the combat attributes.
With a 500% debuff (GMs have AV resistance, Yes?) they would end up with .325% regen or 5% evey 15s instead of 10 which looks to be 235.6 HPS. |
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Nah, it's not so bad. If my frad troller can do it, I'm sure others can do it even faster. Mine isn't IO'd out quite as much as I'd like, and I don't even have interface or destiny on him. And I had taken a few weeks off of the game and forgot to use Judgement when it was up until he was almost down. I used Lore pets, but since Eochai kept running around, they despawned by the time he was at about half health, so I know I could have done it (slower) without them.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I know /traps is probably the few secondary with a >500% degen, are there others? cos It looks like those GMs are still pretty impossible to solo even with -500% on them.
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*and his lore pets are Clockwork radial? Clockwork mender untouchable and a Dismantler. I think it's radial t4. Only went up to 4 actually cause I got a VR drop on my 2nd or 3rd run. Haven't done much incarnates at all due to altism on new lowbies.
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One of the reasons Bots is such a good GM soloer, is because the Assault Bot has a -500% regen debuff in it's plasma blasts. So should it land both plasma attacks, it should have -1000% regen debuff itself. Ninjas also have a regen debuff, but it's 100% and used by the Jounin. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
I know /traps is probably the few secondary with a >500% degen, are there others? cos It looks like those GMs are still pretty impossible to solo even with -500% on them.
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So really, any secondary that has a regen Debuff can realistically expect to have >500% if it's partnered with Bots or Ninjas. Bots/Traps being the current reigning champ of -regen.
But to the actual question, I believe Dark Miasma and Radiation Emission are the only other sets to have >500% regen debuff, and that's only sporadic. Dark needing Howling Twilight, and Rad needing EM pulse.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I don't understand your numbers. Eochai has 0.5% Regeneration? Do you mean a flat 0.5 Regen? Doesn't that correspond to 50%? If so, then the GM in question basically comes pre-debuffed, and it shouldn't be difficult at all to floor his health recovery.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Halloween Eochai in Grandville Has .5% Regeneration regen For 353.4 HPS, this is according to a power analyzer and the combat attributes.
With a 500% debuff (GMs have AV resistance, Yes?) they would end up with .325% regen or 5% evey 15s instead of 10 which looks to be 235.6 HPS. |
Even if he isn't pre-debuffed, a 500% regeneration debuff modified by a level 50 Archvillain's debuff resistance corresponds to a net loss of 75% regeneration. So in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'd expect the so-called typical regen debuff to knock out 3/4s of the target's health recovery. (1/4 of 353.4 is, needless to say, much less than 235.6.)
With all of the Ill/Rads and Ill/Colds running around soloing GMs of every stripe, I find it hard to believe that those builds' regen debuffs are inadequate to the task.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Just a reminder on terminology. "Monster" is a class of critter, like minion, Lt, Boss, Archvillain. Monsters are the step up from AV. Like all critters they have a level, so lower level Monsters are weaker than higher level ones. Just like a level 50 minion can be stronger than a level 2 Boss, lower level Monsters can be weaker than higher level AVs.
"Giant Monster" is not a critter type. You can make a mailbox a Giant Monster if you want: its just a pair of english words in a text box. There are no "giant monster" critters within the game engine.
The term was originally invented to refer to Monster class critters in which combat modifiers were turned off. Meaning: the purple patch disappears for them. You do not get bonuses for being higher level than they are, and you don't get penalties for being lower than they are. But its still the case that the critter itself has a level. A level 30 "giant monster" is weaker than level 50 giant monster simply because his numbers are lower.
Before players fully understood the concept of combat modifiers and how they worked (beyond the purple patch itself) when the devs started creating other critters with combat modifiers turned off (like for zone events) that started being described as "using the giant monster code" and the term got a bit hazy. In general, though, the devs tend to use the term "giant monster" to refer to a monster class critter with combat modifiers turned off.
Giant Monsters are therefore not stronger or weaker than Monsters. They are Monsters. They are stronger than they would have been if combat modifiers were not turned off if you are a higher level than they intrinsically are, and they are weaker than they would have been if combat modifiers were not turned off if you are a lower level than they intrinsically are. The strongest Monsters are obviously the Monsters with the highest level, and since many giant monster critters spawn at an intrinsic level lower than level 50, they can be weaker than level 50 monster critters in PI. But that is a function of their level, not giant monsters in general, just like all other critters scale with level.
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just looking at your numbers how are you getting 0.5% = 50%? they are 2 different percentages lol|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I don't understand your numbers. Eochai has 0.5% Regeneration? Do you mean a flat 0.5 Regen? Doesn't that correspond to 50%? If so, then the GM in question basically comes pre-debuffed, and it shouldn't be difficult at all to floor his health recovery.
Even if he isn't pre-debuffed, a 500% regeneration debuff modified by a level 50 Archvillain's debuff resistance corresponds to a net loss of 75% regeneration. So in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'd expect the so-called typical regen debuff to knock out 3/4s of the target's health recovery. (1/4 of 353.4 is, needless to say, much less than 235.6.) With all of the Ill/Rads and Ill/Colds running around soloing GMs of every stripe, I find it hard to believe that those builds' regen debuffs are inadequate to the task. |
also if it was 50% it would be way way over the regen cap at that point (regening half of its regen points every regen tick would make it virtually unkillable unless you 1 shotted it)
and most of the reason -regen doesnt appear to do a lot is that most AVs and GMs resist it by 85-87%
for the standard -500% regen debuff with an 87% resistance it would reduce its effect by 435 making it a mere -65% regen which is why it goes from 0.5% to 0.353%
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Because half of a percentage point doesn't make any sense to me. So I asked him to clarify whether that percentage sign was a typo. It is not unusual for the game to refer to 100% as simply 1.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
just looking at your numbers how are you getting 0.5% = 50%? they are 2 different percentages lol
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Thus, 0.5 would equal 50%. Now you seem to be saying that he regenerates 0.5% of his health per second, which does make sense, but that idea wasn't clear in the post in question.
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| and most of the reason -regen doesnt appear to do a lot is that most AVs and GMs resist it by 85-87% |
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| for the standard -500% regen debuff with an 87% resistance it would reduce its effect by 435 making it a mere -65% regen which is why it goes from 0.5% to 0.353% |
I'm not saying the guy's wrong; I'm saying he's speaking a different language than the one I'm accustomed to reading on this subject. So I asked for clarification. Apparently you're fluent in that language, which is great, but don't act like that strange math you're using is obvious, because it ain't.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I think one can but I haven't. My builds do not include taunt (and I don't play Brute/Tanker) so it's almost impossible and extremely boring to chase a Giant Monster that runs so much.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Regen is kinda funky. Basically you regenerate a constant amount at a variable rate. So a .5% regen rate is .5% per second. For that to work, that means you'd need to get 5% every 10s. When want to find how often you tic 5%, you divide your 5% constant by the rate (in this case .5%). Your percentage is just your base multiplied by 1 (100% of your rate) plus any buffs/debuffs. Let's say a GM got hit with -50% regen after it's resistance. That'd be (.5 * (1 + -.5)) for .25% regen and 5/(.5 * (1 + -.5)) That would mean a 5% tic every 20s. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Because half of a percentage point doesn't make any sense to me. So I asked him to clarify whether that percentage sign was a typo. It is not unusual for the game to refer to 100% as simply 1.
Thus, 0.5 would equal 50%. Now you seem to be saying that he regenerates 0.5% of his health per second, which does make sense, but that idea wasn't clear in the post in question. |
So a 100% regen rate, for the GM, would be .5% Or (.5% HP/Sec base rate x 100% of the critters regen rate)
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Yes, that's why I said that a level 50 Archvillain's debuff resistance reduces a 500% regen debuff to 75%. Level 50 Archvillains have 85% debuff resistance. (1-0.85) * 500 = 75.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
0.5 * (1 - 0.65) = 0.175, not 0.353
I'm not saying the guy's wrong; I'm saying he's speaking a different language than the one I'm accustomed to reading on this subject. So I asked for clarification. Apparently you're fluent in that language, which is great, but don't act like that strange math you're using is obvious, because it ain't. |
AV resistance = .85 -> applied by 1-.85 = .15
Debuff = -500% -> reduced by .15 -> .15 * -5 = -.75
Regen rate = 5 / (.5 * 1) -> applying debuff -> 5 / (.5 * ( 1 - .75)) -> (.5 * .25) = .125% HP/sec
Tic frequency = 5 / .125 = 40s
Make sense?
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I know. I just got a little thrown off by the phrase, "The GM has 0.5% Regen." Usually when I hear that sort of phrase the percentage refers to a proportion of the baseline, as in, "My Scrapper has 350% Regen," rather than the percentage of health regained per second. The percentage of health regained per second is, of course, a perfectly valid way to describe regeneration, and I probably would have picked up on it if the result of your subsequent calculation hadn't confused me.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Regen is kinda funky. Basically you regenerate a constant amount at a variable rate. So a .5% regen rate is .5% per second. For that to work, that means you'd need to get 5% every 10s. When want to find how often you tic 5%, you divide your 5% constant by the rate (in this case .5%). Your percentage is just your base multiplied by 1 (100% of your rate) plus any buffs/debuffs. Let's say a GM got hit with -50% regen after it's resistance. That'd be (.5 * (1 + -.5)) for .25% regen and 5/(.5 * (1 + -.5)) That would mean a 5% tic every 20s.
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In any case, I'm grateful for the clarification. I still think there's an error in your previous post, though, because these two quotes are in disagreement:
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It isn't obvious and it's definitely a wierd way to do it, but once you get it, it fairly simple. So using the -500% debuff and showing my work AV resistance = .85 -> applied by 1-.85 = .15 Debuff = -500% -> reduced by .15 -> .15 * -5 = -.75 Regen rate = 5 / (.5 * 1) -> applying debuff -> 5 / (.5 * ( 1 - .75)) -> (.5 * .25) = .125% HP/sec Tic frequency = 5 / .125 = 40s |
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Halloween Eochai in Grandville Has .5% Regeneration regen For 353.4 HPS, this is according to a power analyzer and the combat attributes.
With a 500% debuff (GMs have AV resistance, Yes?) they would end up with .325% regen or 5% evey 15s instead of 10 which looks to be 235.6 HPS. |
It's not a big deal and it really isn't my intention to play gotcha games; I'm just trying to explain where my confusion came from. The difference between post-debuff regeneration of 88ish HP/sec and 235.6 HP/sec is absolutely ginormous.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Not playing gotcha games, thanks for the catch. I must have forgot the 1 and did .5 * .65 (I thought AV resistance was 87% making the debuff .65) instead of .5 * (1 + -.65).|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Your more recent number, 5% health per 40 seconds, or 0.125% health per second, matches what I'd expect out of a 75% regeneration debuff. The number in the previous post, 5% health per 15 seconds doesn't. It's not a big deal and it really isn't my intention to play gotcha games; I'm just trying to explain where my confusion came from. The difference between post-debuff regeneration of 88ish HP/sec and 235.6 HP/sec is absolutely ginormous. |
I must lrn2calculator
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Hey, we've all been there, in my case probably more often than most. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Not playing gotcha games, thanks for the catch. I must have forgot the 1 and did .5 * .65 (I thought AV resistance was 87% making the debuff .65) instead of .5 * (1 + -.65).
I must lrn2calculator |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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My Rad/Sonic bashed a Lattice in PI earlier today without too much trouble, although it took a couple of attempts to split one off far enough away so that I didn't get any other agro (he has tier 4 on all Incarnate powers except for Judgement).
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