Prediction: Stalkers will not get the staff set.
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Who're 'we'?
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
(which isn't realistic since we don't AS that much past 25-30)
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Out of curiosity, has information actually been released that states Staff won't have Build Up? This form change power would have to be a good deal more impressive than DP's ammo to replace Build Up.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Very simple: Staff is being designed much like dual pistols, where instead of build up it has a form change power selection. It also has a combo mechanic, and staffs just aren't thematic stealth weapons.
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If it really does lack BU then I sincerely hope the devs take this opportunity to break the mold with Stalkers. SO WHAT if it lacks BU? If they actually make Assassin Strike modifiable by the form change power instead then they'd have something interesting even if it didn't do the same damage as another set's BU+AS.
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The old guard who know how to maximize stalker DPS.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Who're 'we'?
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Good luck getting an AS off on a Team without:
Corpsing,
getting Inerrupted,
Losing Hidden.
Even on a defense capped toon after a placate.
If you are resist/regen based, I am so sorry.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Out of curiosity, has information actually been released that states Staff won't have Build Up? This form change power would have to be a good deal more impressive than DP's ammo to replace Build Up.
If it really does lack BU then I sincerely hope the devs take this opportunity to break the mold with Stalkers. SO WHAT if it lacks BU? If they actually make Assassin Strike modifiable by the form change power instead then they'd have something interesting even if it didn't do the same damage as another set's BU+AS. |
I have little faith in the dev team to spend the effort to customize the set at all for stlakers or to create a unique AS animation.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
i think its more likely that stalkers will get this since i noticed one of synapses comments about titan weapons not being on stalkers and hewas saying that they would try to make sets available to all the ATs and that titan weapons might show up on stalkers in the future
so i wouldnt count them out just yet, i think they were just trying some new things this issue (like with the BAF rewards and emp locked new incarnate trees both of which were pulled already)
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What he actually said was, "not entirely unlikely" that TW would show up on Stalkers. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i think its more likely that stalkers will get this since i noticed one of synapses comments about titan weapons not being on stalkers and hewas saying that they would try to make sets available to all the ATs and that titan weapons might show up on stalkers in the future
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I wouldn't hold my breath. They are using the same language they did when they denied us Shield Defense and that was THREE YEARS ago.
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It kinda is. DP just changed the secondary effects and swapped some of the damage.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Out of curiosity, has information actually been released that states Staff won't have Build Up? This form change power would have to be a good deal more impressive than DP's ammo to replace Build Up.
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Staff's forms does give you different effects but also combines it with Street Justice's combos. The forms are 'Mind', 'Body', and 'Soul'. I remember the body form giving you regen and/or resists when you use power that spends your perfection points and mind form adding psionic damage to your attacks.
You can take a look in-game or find the pics floating around somewhere. Not sure if the forms replace BU but do you think it'd be balanced to have the choosing of effects + BU when DP couldn't even get Aim? And the combo points feature? I dunno. Maybe.
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Despite the apparent similarity of DP's ammo swap feature to Staff's form switching, I think the better comparison is still melee to melee. If Staff is essentially Street Justice with Combat Readiness replaced by Form switching then.... well, it really depends on exactly what form switching does. If it's like DP, then no that's not going to be balanced. Staff will lag behind StJ on damage. If on the other hand the forms are more dramatically different than just changing damage types then it's possible it would be balanced.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You can take a look in-game or find the pics floating around somewhere. Not sure if the forms replace BU but do you think it'd be balanced to have the choosing of effects + BU when DP couldn't even get Aim? And the combo points feature? I dunno. Maybe.
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If it really is the case that there's no BU or CR-like ability, then I hope the devs allow Stalkers to just have the set as-is. Forget BU. Call it an experiment. Why not? It's not like they have many Stalker customers to lose. It may actually turn out to be the best thing ever.
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And I JUST told you what the forms do. |
Originally Posted by Zem
If on the other hand the forms are more dramatically different than just changing damage types then it's possible it would be balanced.
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You pick a form, your hits build perfection points and certain attacks expend them in various ways. Some of those ways buff you, others add damage to your attacks. Also, while accumulated them, each level of perfection buffs you (up to 3) depending on what form you use. Oh, and you get a cone +def power clone from TW in the set too.
But if you *REALLY* don't know you could just, you know, *search* in one of the staff threads.
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Whatever is out there to find so far is not final anyway, so why bother? Like I said, IF the effects brought about by the various forms are enough to offset the lack of BU, great, but if the only difference between this and Street Justice's combo levels is that you get different (but not necessarily better) effects for the different forms then I wouldn't say it will offset the lack of BU.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I JUST told you what the forms do.
You pick a form, your hits build perfection points and certain attacks expend them in various ways. Some of those ways buff you, others add damage to your attacks. Also, while accumulated them, each level of perfection buffs you (up to 3) depending on what form you use. Oh, and you get a cone +def power clone from TW in the set too. But if you *REALLY* don't know you could just, you know, *search* in one of the staff threads. |
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Yes, not only does it execute combo effects with its powers, and that it gets to choose between 3 different type of combo effects but constant buffs come with each combo point (or perfection point in this case).
Yes there are differences, with only one drawback being you do not get to execute the 'combo effects' unless you are at maximum 'combo level' which is 3.
Since Form of Body grants you damage buffs per point, I'm *PRETTY* sure the set won't have BU...and all you had to do was look. It's not that complicated.
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Hence this is another set that under Synapse's reasoning doesn't belong on stalkers. Add it to the list of times stalkers have been left out in the cold by the developers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yes, not only does it execute combo effects with its powers, and that it gets to choose between 3 different type of combo effects but constant buffs come with each combo point (or perfection point in this case).
Yes there are differences, with only one drawback being you do not get to execute the 'combo effects' unless you are at maximum 'combo level' which is 3. Since Form of Body grants you damage buffs per point, I'm *PRETTY* sure the set won't have BU...and all you had to do was look. It's not that complicated. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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You know Leo, it's entirely possible to read something and not really get it the first time. You'll notice I've seen that thread before. What I wasn't getting is that the perfection levels don't JUST apply to the finishers. I thought the additional damage per point you were talking about was like the additional damage per point you get with StJ. I get it now.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Since Form of Body grants you damage buffs per point, I'm *PRETTY* sure the set won't have BU...and all you had to do was look. It's not that complicated.
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Still, I don't see the values for those per-hit buffs and like I said even if we did it's not final. This isn't offically released info. It may even be pre-internal testing. Frankly, it looks like it's going to be hell to predict how well this set will work. They may not know they've got it balanced well until long after it's released by looking at all the collected data.
But if this works for Scrappers, I don't see why it shouldn't work for Stalkers. Build Up or no Build Up. Like I said, break the mold and see what happens.
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Well I've always been a proponent of sets not needing to be optimally balanced for each AT it's given to. That is, I do not mind some sets being lower dmg but with decent mitigation and nice self buffs to make it better for tanking, or a set with moderate damage but it's quick so maintains high DPS (better for scrapping) or slow high recharge power that do lots of ST and Burst damage and benefits from concentrating the damage.
That said, from the looks of it, the set has decent range, AoE and options to supplement lots of tactics but all in all it looks like it'd be better on a Tanker. Form of Body might be good for Scrappers, Mind for Brutes but Tankers sound like any of the forms would be great. As for Stalkers? The devs could do something crazy and just tie BU into the forms to so choosing BU gives you all 3 forms too, or they can give Stalker burst versions of the forms that are clicks instead of toggles, all of which act like BU but also gives you its respective form for 30 sec.
But it's all pretty difficult to imagine. I have a bad feeling, if the devs didn't even have the time to make TW for Stalker, balancing this to fit Stalkers *at all* is going to be...reaching...
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Seriously... if they pass Stalkers up twice in a row for melee powersets it may be the first time in a long time I consider whether it's just time to hang it up finally. But I guess I can hope someone over there is reading and it gets through someone's consciousness that Stalker's don't NEED Build Up because they aren't all about the BU+AS from Hide. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But it's all pretty difficult to imagine. I have a bad feeling, if the devs didn't even have the time to make TW for Stalker, balancing this to fit Stalkers *at all* is going to be...reaching...
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Either that or I'll have to try to like Scrappers or Brutes, I guess. I dunno. I've tried before but they just don't have the same... style. They both feel to me like all they do is run around and smash things.
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I am not an expert but from the looks of it, creating a Staff set for Stalker seems much more time consuming than creating "Large" Weapon for Stalker. I hate calling it Titan because the word Titan gives people a feeling that it "does not belong to" a "Ninja". lol|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That said, from the looks of it, the set has decent range, AoE and options to supplement lots of tactics but all in all it looks like it'd be better on a Tanker. Form of Body might be good for Scrappers, Mind for Brutes but Tankers sound like any of the forms would be great. As for Stalkers? The devs could do something crazy and just tie BU into the forms to so choosing BU gives you all 3 forms too, or they can give Stalker burst versions of the forms that are clicks instead of toggles, all of which act like BU but also gives you its respective form for 30 sec.
But it's all pretty difficult to imagine. I have a bad feeling, if the devs didn't even have the time to make TW for Stalker, balancing this to fit Stalkers *at all* is going to be...reaching... |
So realistically, we could get the same BS that "Stalker won't have staff set in this update but later updates...."
Maybe Stalker will get three build ups? Or one build up gives you everything. ugh.. I don't know. It does seem very complicated to "fit" stalker's needs. 3 Build Up powers seem unlikely because how do you reduce recharge? You need more slots for each type of Build Up that give both +damage and specific Form?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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My concern isn't about what works or what doesn't work. If the dev feels "fine" about the current Martial Arts design for Stalker, then their standard for what works and what doesn't is pretty "low".|
Originally Posted by Zem
But if this works for Scrappers, I don't see why it shouldn't work for Stalkers. Build Up or no Build Up. Like I said, break the mold and see what happens. |
My concern is that because they have to add "Build Up" (mark my word), the Staff's uniqueness is taken away. Kinetic Melee is the only set that they specific add something unique to make up for the loss of Power Siphon mechanic. They add build up refresh and 100% critical in Burst (which I still don't know if it's intended).
Dual Blade is another example. Some people really hate it on stalker because two combos are tied to assassin strike. However, they did make 1K Cuts a bit better. Some may think it's not enough and some people may think it's fine. When I first level my DB to 50, I mostly only used BU + 1K Cuts but that's when melee reach was only 5'. Now that melee reach is 7', other Dual blade sets get a bit better but Stalker's 1K Cut still remains at 10'. I would have adjusted it to 12', assuming that 5 extra reach is the balancing point.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Ouch! Well, fine. Now I hope we don't get that staff set. Nyah!|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
The old guard who know how to maximize stalker DPS.
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*sulks in a corner*
Actually, that'd suck. While I don't care about Titan Weapons beyond the principle of 'stalkers can't get new toys any more??' I do care about staff fighting. *sniff*
Maybe we should try asking for blaster sets instead. I want devices melee! What's more sneaky than hitting a guy over the head with a time bomb? (actually, that'd be an awesome assassin strike - sneak up, slip a time bomb in a guy's pocket, then run away). Or maybe Devices Armor. It's pretty obvious what power to drop for Hide (Taser, obviously) and I want to wear a jacket made of gun drones. That's sneaky!
Blasts are easy to convert to stalker sets, too. Replace the snipe with AS (don't even have to mess with the animation!) and reduce all ranged attacks to 7' range. Done!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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I am hoping others will join me in getting Ninjtsu Proliferated next.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Seriously... if they pass Stalkers up twice in a row for melee powersets it may be the first time in a long time I consider whether it's just time to hang it up finally. But I guess I can hope someone over there is reading and it gets through someone's consciousness that Stalker's don't NEED Build Up because they aren't all about the BU+AS from Hide.
Either that or I'll have to try to like Scrappers or Brutes, I guess. I dunno. I've tried before but they just don't have the same... style. They both feel to me like all they do is run around and smash things. |
This is for selfish reasons I admit, as I really want to delete my last three stalkers, but I really enjoy Ninjitsu A LOT.
If it goes to scrappers, a great deal of the reason to play stalkers goes away.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I will die laughing if they also replace Smoke Flash with something actually good because an AoE placate isn't thematic for Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I am hoping others will join me in getting Ninjtsu Proliferated next.
This is for selfish reasons I admit, as I really want to delete my last three stalkers, but I really enjoy Ninjitsu A LOT. If it goes to scrappers, a great deal of the reason to play stalkers goes away. |
I suggest NINJA CHARGE!
But seriously, the possibilities are interesting considering they'd have to replace Hide and Caltrops at the very least. Hide would likely become a Cloak of Darkness / Energy Cloak clone, meaning it would be unsuppressed stealth! Caltrops they already have in epics so the field is wide open to get another useful power here. The set could easily be OP on Scrappers.
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I don't know that I'd use Martial Arts as an example. Changing legacy powersets in any drastic way is not something they do lightly or often. Even when they have it's nothing like what you think is necessary for MA (replacing a ST attack with an AoE). I would take what they've done with newer powersets as more of the direction they are thinking for Stalkers these days and that indicates they are well aware of the AoE thing.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
My concern isn't about what works or what doesn't work. If the dev feels "fine" about the current Martial Arts design for Stalker, then their standard for what works and what doesn't is pretty "low".
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| My concern is that because they have to add "Build Up" (mark my word), the Staff's uniqueness is taken away. Kinetic Melee is the only set that they specific add something unique to make up for the loss of Power Siphon mechanic. They add build up refresh and 100% critical in Burst (which I still don't know if it's intended). |
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Honestly, they are "married" to this idea that Stalker is all about BU, AS and Placate. If one of them is not there, it's not a Stalker. :P|
Originally Posted by Zem
Then maybe the time is now to lobby them NOT to add a Build Up. I mean, if they're not worried about stiffing us with Titan Weapons, they should hardly worry about experimenting with a Stalker set that doesn't have BU. What have they got to lose? |
My money is on Staff having Build Up. I just don't know how they are going to add different Forms to the set.
Haven't you noticed that Stalker is the only AT that they don't want to break the mold? Stalker didn't get Shield and Fiery Aura because they don't want Stalker to have access to more damage from secondary like shield charge and fiery embrace. The "theme restriction" is like the lamest excuse because they have no problem giving Brute/Tanker access to concealment.
They just don't want to balance Stalker outside of "build up". Maybe due to PvP reason...who knows.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Ninjas use staves....Ninjas use all weapons that exist.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Very simple: Staff is being designed much like dual pistols, where instead of build up it has a form change power selection. It also has a combo mechanic, and staffs just aren't thematic stealth weapons.
Since a key mechanic of the set would have to be removed and ninjas (all stalkers are ninjas) dont use staffs, If it is released someday, staff will not be available to th AT. |
In fact is there shaw brother films where ninjas dont use Staves?
Is their an American Ninja Flick that they dont use Staves?
And in history Ninjas used a staff weapon alot....Mancatchers where very important for dismounting riding opponents....and to strangle the opponent not easily able to be strangled at close quarters
In addition how do you think they got to specifc high places....they used staves to vault to areas or to trip opponents.
Some ninjas in history also used the 3 sectioned staff which could be used as a staff or as a mace or whip like weapon.
If you are refering to the way the titan weapon mechanics work and that it doesnt work well with the stalker assassination strike....well go figure...neither does street justice...nor does dual blades...but they put them on stalkers anywise...
All the titan weapon set does is just another form of build up...so go figure....they are doing it with street justice and dual blades.
As for the prediction in general...well go figure....stalkers cant get everything...will i be upset stalkers dont get titan weapons....maybe a little bit...but go figure they dont get shields either.....
And if the developers allow people to wield giant weapons with a shield....thats alot worse then ninjas or assassins using a big weapon.
Also for a real world example of an Assassin using a huge weapon...Hanzo used to actualy like to slice his victims in half...with a huge waited weapon as it made sure that they where dead....of course that was centuries ago....so go figure.
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My post was parody of the BS the devs used to justify why stalkers didn't get titan weapons.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Ninjas use staves....Ninjas use all weapons that exist.
In fact is there shaw brother films where ninjas dont use Staves? Is their an American Ninja Flick that they dont use Staves? And in history Ninjas used a staff weapon alot....Mancatchers where very important for dismounting riding opponents....and to strangle the opponent not easily able to be strangled at close quarters In addition how do you think they got to specifc high places....they used staves to vault to areas or to trip opponents. Some ninjas in history also used the 3 sectioned staff which could be used as a staff or as a mace or whip like weapon. If you are refering to the way the titan weapon mechanics work and that it doesnt work well with the stalker assassination strike....well go figure...neither does street justice...nor does dual blades...but they put them on stalkers anywise... All the titan weapon set does is just another form of build up...so go figure....they are doing it with street justice and dual blades. As for the prediction in general...well go figure....stalkers cant get everything...will i be upset stalkers dont get titan weapons....maybe a little bit...but go figure they dont get shields either..... And if the developers allow people to wield giant weapons with a shield....thats alot worse then ninjas or assassins using a big weapon. Also for a real world example of an Assassin using a huge weapon...Hanzo used to actualy like to slice his victims in half...with a huge waited weapon as it made sure that they where dead....of course that was centuries ago....so go figure. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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This is true, and also the best reason why stalkers won't get the staff set. Remember how we've been countering Synapse's theme explanation for not giving titan weapons with "stalkers are not ninja!"?|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Ninjas use staves....Ninjas use all weapons that exist.
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Weeeell. This means (by our own admission!) that staffs are not thematic stalker weapons!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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