Kind of sad that the CCT is down. I can't send my incarnate into Beta because I can't copy him over, and I really don't feel like gimping the league by bringing a character who is unslotted incarnate-wise and invention-wise. Especially if the enemies are 54+2 and whatnot.
Because of this I haven't tested MoM or TPN.
I still don't think even if I HAVE done the MoM or TPN trial that this would change my opinion to the change of rewards.
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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There's plenty of alternatives to the market. You can just use SO's, trade through broadcast or email system, use the stores, use merit venders, etc. The game went on for years with out a market place.
Just because you like using it doesn't mean you have to. If the new market fee is unreasonable, just don't use the market.
__________________
Currently listening to Camper Van Beethoven's Camper Van Beethoven
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
lol- Hamster has the right of it! I am now going to do individual bartering for recipes and salvage via tells from now on.....
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Dude. Way to misinterpret what I'm saying. Or is that your special power? Legion means something more than just the string of letters used in your SG/VG name (See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/legion). While apparently that seems to have mystified you, I'm sure others understood what I said.|
Originally Posted by NT_Flamer
Did you even read my last comment? Developers make mistakes all the time, and to take anything they say at face value is to invite disappointment and rage. Disagreeing with Devs also comes with every game, not just this one.
I agree that the 15 merit cost should be reduced, and Trials like UGT should give better rewards than common salvage and 2 emp merits, but taking away the BAF and Lam merits after earning the Lore and Destiny slots isn't that big of a deal. As I've said in game, I bet not even a 1/4 of the people complaining about this change have tested TPN or MOM. And just because I'm a member of the Legion doesn't mean I need to side with anyone on any particular subject. It's a title with a responsibility of respect towards other players, not a statement of "We hate the Devs" |
And yes, I read what you have written. A large portion of your initial post was centered around complaining that others don't play the way you want them to. Whether that is right or wrong is debatable. However, I'm sure that is not showing a lot of respect towards them....
As far as the rest of the post is concerned, it seemed you were more along the lines of "I like it, so why are you whining?", mixed in with a bit of "If you don't like it, piss on you".
As I tend to do with posters like you in these types of threads, I am now biding you adieu.
Take care
***I hear that virtual lip gloss and knee pads are going to be on sale at the Paragon Market next week. Be sure to stock up!
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
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NT, this situation is perfectly analagous to the auction house. Yes, you could do without it, but it would be perfectly tedious to access parts of game content (and what makes the game fun for many people) without it. They're making their trial system less fun and more clunky with the proposed changes.|
Originally Posted by NT_Flamer
This is something that I have come to expect of you, even in game. Your example however is flawed. There is no ingame content that is similar to the AH, where as there are already established Alphas, Destinies, and Interfaces.
But if a billion inf per transaction fee were put on the AH, you bet I wouldn't use it. I doubt it will change their minds. Game Developers are notorious for sitting on their hands for longer than they should than admit they made a mistake. I feel the change is good and will get people to do different stuff. You all may think that it is shoe horning you into doing whatever content the devs want you to do, but Drop the Emp Rewards does NOT force you to STOP doing BAFs and Lams, just makes it so you have to do other trials to get the good rewards. |
And yes, this change will cause people to run the BAF and Lambda less, but for the sole reason that they won't get an emp out of it. There is nothing about those two trials that is so drastically weaker than the other trials that merits removing an emp reward. The other new ones that are more difficult have two emps to make up the difference.
Once we have a new tier of incarnate powers, the current set of Trials will probably need to have an exemping rule (though if the devs hadn't tossed out two new level bumps to us, I rather wonder how necessary this would be as well).
And restricting player choice for trials is a bad idea. We will only have five to choose from if the proposed changes go live, and they're removing two from the running. That is not good design. With alpha slots, they figured out a way to make all those work and be options. Heck, they even included lower TFs with shards and notices. They don't HAVE to limit things as they are choosing.
As for changing designers minds, don't assume too much. They talk to themselves plenty and have things they would like to do. Just because those things don't show up on live like we would appreciate doesn't meant the devs aren't thinking about them.
Also, developers do change their minds from player feedback, at least here for City of Heroes. I've seen it more than a few times with live situations (albeit slower than I would want most of the time), and it happens a LOT with betas. It's worth making an argument, at least here with City of Heroes. Doubt I would bother with WoW, though.
*added*
Flux, NT Flamer has been around Victory for a long while. I've teamed with him a fair amount in game. He's a bit more aggressive with these posts than I've seen him in game. He's rather tongue in cheek there. Even has a toon called Fake Masque!
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
GP. You seem like a good guy and have been trying to play peacemaker on this forum for the past few months, which is cool. But I probably have 20 years on you and have seen little pimples like NT on the net for years. If he had come into this thread and said, "I like this and this for this reason", I would have read what he said and moved on. Unfortunately, he basically called everyone out that disagreed with what the devs are proposing and then said "If you don't like it, suck it!". Sorry, but that **** doesn't fly. It gets old. I can respect that someone feels a certain way but I expect a certain amount of reciprocity. He wasn't giving that. He was basically trolling (not very well, but still).|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Flux, NT Flamer has been around Victory for a long while. I've teamed with him a fair amount in game. He's a bit more aggressive with these posts than I've seen him in game. He's rather tongue in cheek there. Even has a toon called Fake Masque!
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Also, as far as the Masque thing goes, sack-riding another player is pathetic. Unless it's an SO that plays the game, then it's pretty much a given that you have to make toons that have pretty much the same name...
***Before someone gets foolish, I was using the surname flux on toons before there was a Hollows......
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Quote:
If people choose not to run BAF/Lam because of the reduction in rewards after unlocking Lore/Destiny, that's on them. Honestly just short of making rares and very rares, Emps aren't that useful. Yes they unlock emotes and costumes, but most of that isn't functional stuff (as in helps a character perform their role) As I have said before 15 emps seems a little steep a price for the new incarnate stuff, but its not like there isn't stuff already there that is good. It's not like they are taking the current Alpha-Destiny/Lore stuff and locking it all down to be opened with 15 emps. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
NT, this situation is perfectly analagous to the auction house. Yes, you could do without it, but it would be perfectly tedious to access parts of game content (and what makes the game fun for many people) without it. They're making their trial system less fun and more clunky with the proposed changes.
And yes, this change will cause people to run the BAF and Lambda less, but for the sole reason that they won't get an emp out of it. There is nothing about those two trials that is so drastically weaker than the other trials that merits removing an emp reward. The other new ones that are more difficult have two emps to make up the difference. Once we have a new tier of incarnate powers, the current set of Trials will probably need to have an exemping rule (though if the devs hadn't tossed out two new level bumps to us, I rather wonder how necessary this would be as well). And restricting player choice for trials is a bad idea. We will only have five to choose from if the proposed changes go live, and they're removing two from the running. That is not good design. With alpha slots, they figured out a way to make all those work and be options. Heck, they even included lower TFs with shards and notices. They don't HAVE to limit things as they are choosing. As for changing designers minds, don't assume too much. They talk to themselves plenty and have things they would like to do. Just because those things don't show up on live like we would appreciate doesn't meant the devs aren't thinking about them. Also, developers do change their minds from player feedback, at least here for City of Heroes. I've seen it more than a few times with live situations (albeit slower than I would want most of the time), and it happens a LOT with betas. It's worth making an argument, at least here with City of Heroes. Doubt I would bother with WoW, though. *added* Flux, NT Flamer has been around Victory for a long while. I've teamed with him a fair amount in game. He's a bit more aggressive with these posts than I've seen him in game. He's rather tongue in cheek there. Even has a toon called Fake Masque! |
And with the Dev stuff, I'll admit I'm totally jaded with the way things work in other games that I have played just as long as CoH. Maybe they will change stuff, maybe they won't. I stand on the side that they will continue doing what they want regardless of what we say.
I feel that these changes aren't that big of a deal. Maybe I went a little overboard with my response on the subject, but soooooo many people complain about Non-Issues (IMO) gets to me sometimes. Not saying popo on you for not liking the changes (you being people in general) I'm just saying that, especially with the new abilities, If you don't like it, don't bother.
And the last point would be the new Trials haven't even been released yet, so we don't know how difficult or easy they will be.
To Flux:
Name calling always wins arguments. Keep up the good work bucko!
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ftfy|
Originally Posted by _Flux_
GP. You seem like a good guy and have been trying to play peacemaker on this forum forever, which is cool.
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Also, as far as the Masque thing goes, sack-riding another player is pathetic. Unless it's an SO that plays the game, then it's pretty much a given that you have to make toons that have pretty much the same name...
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Quietly sneaks off to create Mental Midget, Angelic Hamster, Princess Pistacio, and Voodoo Incorporated.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Quietly deletes Fake Voodoo... |
_________
@Inquisitor
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Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
Quietly sneaks off to create Mental Midget, Angelic Hamster, Princess Pistacio, and Voodoo Incorporated.
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I am so flattered!!!!!!!!
~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Newest event- The Great Makeover
I already made a Madame Pistachio tribute character; Mister Peanut.
__________________
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Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
NT, it'd be worth checking things out in the beta forums. There is a very real difference between "not a big deal for me" and "not a big deal but people are making it so." I obviously can't hand wave and make you believe that this empyrean suggested change and the reaction to it is the former for you (and not the latter), but it really is a big deal for a lot of people.
I'm not the only one for who it's going to have a negative impact on: both for playing the new Incarnate system, and for how much I can get out of it. I'm still working on getting the auras and costumes you can get with astrals and empyreans, AND some of my many alts have bad luck with the rewards tables and need to use empyreans for rares, etc. The last thing I want to hear is how I will be getting fewer rewards from trials (and trials I like to play), and how I will need MORE rewards to get stuff than with the current system.
And yes, for CoX, beta really is beta. They'll toss things out and get feedback... it's basically the revision period before things get set in stone more. Synapse has been more than willing to adjust things with StJ, Beam, and now Titan in Beta, for instance. Costs are also adjusted... I'd say the store is still too expensive for some things, but it's better than it was in beta, and they seem to be assessing things as they go.
Like I said, if this was WoW, I wouldn't expect much. It's too huge and they have a different development style. Kind of curious how other, newer *cough* games go. Even if their developers are more stand-offish, I hope it's somewhat casual friendly. I know that's another reason some of this new stuff irks me from our devs... I play this because it is casual friendly. I have a family, friends, a full-time job, and a hobby that is basically a second job... and all that comes before gaming. I don't have time for the WoW/game=work approach.
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Aww, shucks, I be a peacemaker. How Minnesotan and middle child of me. |
Originally Posted by _Flux_
GP. You seem like a good guy and have been trying to play peacemaker on this forum for the past few months, which is cool. But I probably have 20 years on you and have seen little pimples like NT on the net for years. If he had come into this thread and said, "I like this and this for this reason", I would have read what he said and moved on. Unfortunately, he basically called everyone out that disagreed with what the devs are proposing and then said "If you don't like it, suck it!". Sorry, but that **** doesn't fly. It gets old. I can respect that someone feels a certain way but I expect a certain amount of reciprocity. He wasn't giving that. He was basically trolling (not very well, but still).
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As for calling anyone a pimple, eh, if being a little abrasive with your opinion makes a pimple, that's true of half the people on the forums.
I know I can be grouchy at times, that's for sure. I was mostly reminding people to chill. /em Say Anything "You must chill!"I'm leaving Hamster's comment where it lies.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
To add on to GP's last post:
Most of my characters are unlocking Lore/Destiny w/ 12-15 emp merits banked. Some had to use a few to tier 3 their lore and destiny. Some didn't have the "foresight" to save these for unlocking hybrid/genesis/etc.
Short of it? 15 emp merits is NOT a reasonable amount of time to unlock the next phases of incarnate, given the time required.
__________________
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Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
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Rock, rock on Hamster.
Taking into account the whole "why wasn't found in Beta" thing that sometimes pops up, I apologize if something random happens with Destiny: Incandescence on Live. I notice it's not getting much attention which is probably due to people foaming at the mouth due to the mere mention of knockback.
Out of curiosity... if they made an astral to Emp conversion or even a thread to Emp conversion... would that help people out?
Say 6 astrals- 1 emp or 30 threads- 1 emp. (there has to be some kind of "cost" factor)
If this was put in place, I would feel a lot better about proposed changes.
~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
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P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Newest event- The Great Makeover
Quote:
Not for the 15 Emp cost IMO, especially if they are going to continue with the Emps not apply for Baf/lambda.|
Originally Posted by Madame Pistacio
Out of curiosity... if they made an astral to Emp conversion or even a thread to Emp conversion... would that help people out?
Say 6 astrals- 1 emp or 30 threads- 1 emp. (there has to be some kind of "cost" factor) If this was put in place, I would feel a lot better about proposed changes. |
Been awhile, but do you currently get an extra Emp for doing a complete Master run on BAF? And I would assume if that's the case, also on Keyes/UGT? I do not know if that extra Emp was affected by a cool down or not. Also don't know if it was a one-time reward on a character for the master badge or if it was something repeatable.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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I think this could be an appropriate balance. Gets people to farm BAF/Lam a bit more, but also open to doing new stuff since you get Astrals from everything as well.
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Originally Posted by Madame Pistacio
Out of curiosity... if they made an astral to Emp conversion or even a thread to Emp conversion... would that help people out?
Say 6 astrals- 1 emp or 30 threads- 1 emp. (there has to be some kind of "cost" factor) If this was put in place, I would feel a lot better about proposed changes. |
Quote:
No you do not get an extra emp, you get a free rare from Master badges.|
Originally Posted by VoodooCompany
Not for the 15 Emp cost IMO, especially if they are going to continue with the Emps not apply for Baf/lambda.
Been awhile, but do you currently get an extra Emp for doing a complete Master run on BAF? And I would assume if that's the case, also on Keyes/UGT? I do not know if that extra Emp was affected by a cool down or not. Also don't know if it was a one-time reward on a character for the master badge or if it was something repeatable. |
I guess my point was, if they are getting rid of the Emps from BAF/Lam if we at least had an astral conversion it would help a bit.
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Guardian of CHRYSALIS
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I was thinking this would make UGT a little more valuable since you get about 14 astrals from it. And if you did any badge requirements you'd get even more astrals. So it'd be a really nice change in my book |
Originally Posted by NT_Flamer
I think this could be an appropriate balance. Gets people to farm BAF/Lam a bit more, but also open to doing new stuff since you get Astrals from everything as well.
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~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
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It would be a crazy buff... if they did give us an Astral to Emp conversion it would be more like 20 or 30 to one or worse.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
It would be a crazy buff... if they did give us an Astral to Emp conversion it would be more like 20 or 30 to one or worse.
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I don't think so. If you go by unlock cost we have 10 astrals or 3 empyreans for the same thing. Which means 3.3 astals for 1 emp. If we go by thread cost 1 emp= 20 threads and 1 astral = 4 threads. Which means 5 astrals for 1 emp. Thus I suggested 6, which has 1 as a "sink." Even at 10 astrals for 1 emp, it could potentially be worth it in some cases (chars with bad rng luck or who want to get an extra emp for a recipe or an unlock).
~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
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P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
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Quote:
True, but nothing can be brought from Empyrean Mike without Emps, and there is currently no way to earn Emps aside from completing Trials. I don't think the Devs want to open that can of worms.|
Originally Posted by Madame Pistacio
I don't think so. If you go by unlock cost we have 10 astrals or 3 empyreans for the same thing. Which means 3.3 astals for 1 emp. If we go by thread cost 1 emp= 20 threads and 1 astral = 4 threads. Which means 5 astrals for 1 emp. Thus I suggested 6, which has 1 as a "sink." Even at 10 astrals for 1 emp, it could potentially be worth it in some cases (chars with bad rng luck or who want to get an extra emp for a recipe or an unlock).
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Also, if you map out the cost of Rares and Very Rares without using Emps you'll get a much more unfavorable ratio.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Alright. The first week of doing BAFs I was getting weird stuff (one character got 4 Emps), and subsequent runs were either focused on iXP or parts and wasn't paying attention.|
Originally Posted by Madame Pistacio
No you do not get an extra emp, you get a free rare from Master badges.
I guess my point was, if they are getting rid of the Emps from BAF/Lam if we at least had an astral conversion it would help a bit. |
I dislike the conversion idea as well and would prefer *just* an Astral cost; and no, not 15 Emps worth of Astrals.
I would really prefer no outside requirement to unlocking a branch I already have, but I guess that's off the table.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Quote:
It shouldn't be off the table. Why are these particular powers gated by 15 Emp fees? Are they empirically better than existing powers? A Smashing Judgement? I doubt it.|
Originally Posted by VoodooCompany
I would really prefer no outside requirement to unlocking a branch I already have, but I guess that's off the table.
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It just doesn't make sense, and I don't see any reason to buy these new powers.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Madame Pistacio
Out of curiosity... if they made an astral to Emp conversion or even a thread to Emp conversion... would that help people out?
Say 6 astrals- 1 emp or 30 threads- 1 emp. (there has to be some kind of "cost" factor) If this was put in place, I would feel a lot better about proposed changes. |
This seems like a reasonable suggestion. However, I'm going to have to side with MG on what the conversion factor would end up being. Not that your math is wrong, it's just that Dev math ends up being very special depending on the day of the week, phase of the moon, etc. You don't have to look any further than the conversions for Notice of the Wells as proof of that. Compare Notice->shards vs Notice->threads for some skewed results.
On a more philosophical note. Has anyone heard a Dev say why this change is being made? I mean outside of the obvious implied reasons. One of which seems very odd. "So we will play other content"...Dunno. Do certain Devs get paid less if we don't run "x" number of some TF/SF/Trial a week? I strongly suspect not....
Anyway. On a completely unrelated topic, I got my reward token yesterday. Which makes no sense whatsoever. How can they not know what triggers that to be awarded and when it will drop? Was the code written in holy text and only the righteous can know it's meaning?...
I guess I should just be happy it dropped and shut up.......
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
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Mission Architect Handyman