Non Combat missions - more viable now
By
EvilGeko,
Posted on: 2011-10-14 15:26 in Suggestions and Ideas
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I just want to point out that THIS is, if not THE worst mission in the entire game for me, then the second worst at least (second only to "Stop 30 Fir Bolg"). I hate this mission. I hate it with a passion. The only reason I can tolerate it at all is because I can usually snag the four glowies, then backtrack and kill everything on my way out once the mission is complete.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Theme-wise (and related,) the Rikti "Do not engage patrols/foreman" mission.
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Since the beginning of the game, talk of non-combat missions has persisted, and I don't recall ever being a fan of it, at least not for the last few years. Not since I actually saw what those looked like here. Missions like the Praetorian "Get in and get out in under 120 seconds and you won't fight anything!" are bad, but the worst are missions like the continuing tutorial arcs' character introductions, which are essentially a point-and-click adventure. The Rikti Conference mission is kind of cute, but at least it ends up in a cool fight.
Now, combat missions with non-combat elements in them, that I can get behind, but entire instances that don't involve combat? Put it this way - I don't play City of Heroes to NOT fight things.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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... so... you'd use the choice mechanic mentioned above to pick the combat option. So it wouldn't affect you other than adding a click.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Now, combat missions with non-combat elements in them, that I can get behind, but entire instances that don't involve combat? Put it this way - I don't play City of Heroes to NOT fight things.
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Back around the time these message boards started up, one of the things that interested me about this game was the mention of skills and super senses and using those to investigate crimes.
Such complexities are a pipe dream now, but I wouldn't mind seeing some interesting non-combat missions nonetheless.
And unlike Sam, I actually liked the click-your-way-through-character-intros-and-dialogue aspect of the first extended tutorial mission... the first time through, anyway. If it were *more* choose-your-own-adventure-ish in that different dialogue selections actually altered the path I would like it even more.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I often wished for more variety in the mission objectives. With things being so standardized now, I've been enjoying the different feel of the SSA and Tip missions.
The new tutorial missions are a good start.
I'd like to see changing rewards based on objectives.
Like the final mission in SSA2, I accidentally ran into the vault area looking for the boss. Didn't pay any attention to the warning, as I figured it was just lip service.
Til the alarms started blaring and I was swarmed with guards.
I'd like to see having more than one way to complete the objective. You get a mission to stop a boss, you can clear the mission like usual, you can stealth to the boss and just deal with him, or you can piece together the passcode to access a comm system and have him dealt with via calling in reinforcements.
I'd like to see mission objectives like, don't set off any alarms, that actually fail the mission.
I'd like more options to talk it out or fight as well.
Most of the 'bosses' my villains take on, would end up cowering in fear in his vicinity. Having them beg for their life would be nice, fighting as a last resort kind of deal.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
I love non-combat RPish missions. Always been real fun.
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Yes, yes, of course. My concern was more about the general mentality of non-combat missions in itself. It takes a much more sophisticated game to pull this off well, and I just don't think City of Heroes is it. I mean, look at what we got last time they tried to add "variety" - protect item objectives, fleeing boss objectives, killable escort objectives, simu-click objectives, easily the WORST kind of objectives in the game, and a great bane to my enjoyment.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... so... you'd use the choice mechanic mentioned above to pick the combat option. So it wouldn't affect you other than adding a click.
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To pull this off in a way that doesn't feel like shackles around my feet would take a much more complex system than what we have, something on the order of Alpha Protocol or Deus Ex, and we just don't have that.
Like I said, though - if I can opt out of these, then sure. I have no complaints.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
And unlike Sam, I actually liked the click-your-way-through-character-intros-and-dialogue aspect of the first extended tutorial mission... the first time through, anyway.
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When you start throwing in complex chains of event triggers like the Twinshot and Graves arcs... How many times do you realistically expect me to sit back and read all that stuff when I've already read it and probably know it by heart? When Street Justice came out, I made five new characters (four brand new plus one reroll) and in addition to them, I have a few more I left at level 1 waiting to be played. I went through Twinshot's arc once. I'm not going to go through it again on my other characters, because it takes SO much time to read through all of this text, much more so than would be the case with regular missions. If I do end up running those arcs, it'll be like a munchkin, just clicking "accept" without reading the briefing and clicking through dialogues without reading the text.
I do make it a point to read all of my mission briefings, even on missions I've run many times before. I do read my clues, as well. But even then, there isn't too much to read as compared to what there is to kill. The new arcs invert that, and as a result I just start to lose patience which what is, practically speaking, a distraction taking over the game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I *kinda* agree with Sam...non-combat missions for the sake of non-combat missions and being different is on the 'meh' side of the scale for me. I love all the stuff we got now that is different from the norm but even I'll admit it isn't all that.
Now, if this so called 'non-combat mission' were actually done well and served a purpose (your choices making a difference and/or drives the story better than simple text telling us what happened) I think even Sam wouldn't be all that dismissive of such an addition.
Personally, I wouldn't be against some more highly-themed missions where the non-combat missions and choices affected the dialog. Like, for instance, an 'Psy arc' themed for characters with strong mental powers. You can RP your character's powers how you want, but in this arc, things go toward the mental plane. You can choose dialog options that portray your character as a practiced/strong mentalist, a character willing to learn/practice such things or one completely ignorant of such things. One may have you teamed up with someone who knows such things, the other granting you special mission-specific temp powers while the last leaves you to your own devices.
I say, if you're going to suggest non-combat missions, try posting up some example arcs that would incorporate them and see what people think.
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Most probably, but "done well" is really the stumbling block. There are games out there which can afford to have non-combat tasks because they are built with an extra layer of gameplay beyond simple combat. Maybe they have a complex and involving dialogue system like Mass Effect, maybe they have a great environment interaction system like the Soul Reaver series or the Prince of Persia games, maybe they have a strong emphasis on puzzle-solving like Portal, or maybe they just have graphics and art design so good they can afford to have missions which are just about seeing cool locations or observing cool things.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Now, if this so called 'non-combat mission' were actually done well and served a purpose (your choices making a difference and/or drives the story better than simple text telling us what happened) I think even Sam wouldn't be all that dismissive of such an addition.
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City of Heroes really doesn't have any of that. The most we have is a dialogue system, but so far, our "non-combat missions" have hardly used any of that. Especially Graves and Twinshot have dialogue VECTORS rather than dialogue trees for the most part. Because City of Heroes is ostensibly 3D version of Diablo 2, non-combat missions end up feeling cumbersome and unnecessary because the game lacks the tools to give us anything to do in them. Even avoiding "alarm" spotlights is funky because we are (a least I am) playing with 250+ ms of ping and using "floaty" movement controls that weren't made for precision.
If the Super Secret Whatever Skills Thing had ever materialised, then I might have seen it, as you'd have missions of finding evidence, breaking through security, searching for hidden doors, following footprints or digging through archives, and those could actually be interesting. Sadly, City of Heroes' interaction with the environment extends to clicking on it and watching a bar fill in or speaking with it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Agreed with Memphis Bill. Would love to see more of these types of missions.
Hmm... agreeing with Bill more and more these days. Is the end nigh?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Non combat missions have been brought up in the past. But I think it's ripe, due to some of what's been introduced to the game, to reexamine them for viability. I think COH can make some advances now.
Right now, in COH, we have - not much, as far as "non combat." Steel Canyon fires (which, really, someone has to fight off the Hellions, so I don't count them 100%.) "Find the glowie" missions (including the ever-loved Praetorian flower picking.) Talk to X/patrol/bring X to Y missions. Nothing all that fancy.
Looking through other games - it's much the same. Some have a heavier RP element (STO, for instance - yes, I mentioned another game, bring out the whips - has you "analyzing samples" or "talking to patients to get their symptoms" but at the end it's still mostly a plain old glowie-click with some text, or Aion has you collecting items - but not much past that.) All in all, though, there doesn't seem to be much thought put into or advancement in "non combat missions."
That said, I think COH has the pieces in place TO actually create more involving non combat missions - ones that actually have some risk and/or consequence. The pieces I'm looking at:
- Alarm triggers. We've had these for a while in Mayhem missions. Just for a bit of non-combat opposition.
- Theme-wise (and related,) the Rikti "Do not engage patrols/foreman" mission.
- Allies that show (or don't) in later missions.
- Phasing.
- Choices (currently "moral choices.")
- Player model replacement
... and a few others that just slipped my mind. (It happens.)
The devs also aren't against having missions that spotlight specific abilities (Ice/Cold powers vs steel canyon fires, the Keyes section that practically screams "Hey, a STALKER would be great to be invisible here, wouldn't it?" and the like.)
Essentially, we could have missions (or mission choices) where you could choose to just blow through enemies, OR take an alternate that requires not setting off alarms, disabling a system, getting some information and diverting reinforcements somewhere else - either so you don't have to fight them, or your *own* reinforcements show up. The end reward would be the same - those who fight through, of course, getting extra XP just from mobs, as it is - with possible XP rewards at the various stages for successful completion.
Or, going in to rescue survivors (like the rogue PPD in the fire) - where you can wake them and tag them for a teleport (after finding equipment to do so,) or - if you have the ability - healing the victims yourself.
Villainside, it's always been a bit odd that to get to the "important glowie," we just take a moment to wait for a bar to go across. A bit more work as an option - again, dealing with the alarms and such - would (IMHO) make these more interesting.
I'd just like to see some work done in this general direction.