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15, 25, hasn't mattered to me in the least. I'm not in melee with my Illusion Controller and I'm always in melee with me Ice/Time Corruptor. >Grins<|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I'm preeeetty sure that TJ actually has a 25ft radius, not 15ft. That's the size of a blaster nuke, enough to cover most spawns. I'll be running it on my endgame ill/time build, which will play almost entirely in melee. Nearly all the time buffs and heals are PBAoE, so I might as well save myself the hassle of running back and forth. It'll also make a nice aggro grabber in case I need to tank in a pinch.
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Thanks for the correction though. I meant to put a "(25?)" after the 15 in my post. Editing it to not spread false information.
Beowulf -
Too many Alts, not enough 50's. Story of my life...
Quote:
It's a completely worthless comparison. It's like a fire/fire blaster comparing fire sword with blazing bolt. Sure they both do damage, but otherwise they are completely different moves and depending on your build one may be a way more useful power than the other.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Did you intend to show how the comparison "hurts my argument"? To you, do two powers have to be identical to be comparable? Here's the answer - no, otherwise you wouldn't need to make a comparison. Bottom line - they both debuff damage and tohit. That is a very real, valid comparison and just saying "one's in melee the other isn't" doesn't negate it.
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I then explained the difference quite clearly, one is a fire and forget type ability that affects the enemy the whole encounter no matter your positioning, one is an ability that requires you to stay close to the enemy, which is not always the best tactical position to be in, even with the debuff the benefits for being at a range often outweigh the benefits of the debuff.
If controllers ever get dark miasma, I would never skip darkest night, but with time I'd rather have the recharge and defense form combat jumping or hover than Time's Juncture.
Don't get me wrong, I think the power a great, I just personally do not like using it with Illusion Control, and I believe that Time still has a ton to offer Illusion Control without that power.
IMO Time's Juncture is very similar to Choking Cloud in Radiation in the sense that it's potentially useful but skippable. The main argument against such powers, IMO, is on characters who use invisibility a lot. The debuff isn't awful but it's also not really game changing. I do have it on my Earth/Time for example but don't really turn it on often. I consider Combat Jumping at least equally powerful to Time's Juncture for the Immobilize protection, air control (useful for leaping backward quickly away from danger), low endurance cost, and the fact that it doesn't announce your presence.
For a soloist specifically it would be a power I'd mull over skipping just because Power Boost + Farsight grants defense at any range and comes saddled with a cone AoE.
Just an update! I'm using my slightly modified version of TheOOB's build,and it's a monster. Solo'd the Mender Ramiel arc on 0x4, and am now easily blowing through missions on 0x8.
I probably play different than most though, in that I am always in melee range, so Times Juncture is really useful for me. I like to be at the centre of the action! lol. And with all my pets, and perma chrono shift, farsight, and temporal mending this toon hasn't died yet since hitting 50. I sometimes get into Troller-lock when on teams though! lol. It's like "Oh ya...might be time to buff someone..." instead of taking out spawns myself. >.>
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While Illusionists generally favor range, due to Phantom Army, they can switch to melee range at any point (to cast Flash, perhaps or to heal the group, or other things). Phantom Army has a particularly strong taunting effect, so just maneuver as necessary. |
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
It seems to me the notion of "illusion needs to be played from range" doesn't mesh with Time. Either the illusionist needs to adjust his playstyle to be a little more bold to melee, choose a different secondary or accept that they are playing Time in a far from optimal way.
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Ideon's Paragonwiki page
Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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Well if you're not able to get the compare/contrasts of TJ and DN, there's not much more I can offer you at this point. The fact that you value CJ over a major debuff is enough reason to sign off the topic.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
It's a completely worthless comparison. It's like a fire/fire blaster comparing fire sword with blazing bolt. Sure they both do damage, but otherwise they are completely different moves and depending on your build one may be a way more useful power than the other.
I then explained the difference quite clearly, one is a fire and forget type ability that affects the enemy the whole encounter no matter your positioning, one is an ability that requires you to stay close to the enemy, which is not always the best tactical position to be in, even with the debuff the benefits for being at a range often outweigh the benefits of the debuff. If controllers ever get dark miasma, I would never skip darkest night, but with time I'd rather have the recharge and defense form combat jumping or hover than Time's Juncture. Don't get me wrong, I think the power a great, I just personally do not like using it with Illusion Control, and I believe that Time still has a ton to offer Illusion Control without that power. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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I never said you couldn't compare the two powers, I said your comparison was worthless. You basically said that not taking Time's Juncture was like not talking Darkest Night, which is wrong. If you are playing ranged, Darkest Night is a clearly superior power, and if you are playing melee than I could see arguments for either.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Well if you're not able to get the compare/contrasts of TJ and DN, there's not much more I can offer you at this point. The fact that you value CJ over a major debuff is enough reason to sign off the topic.
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I took CJ to get global recharge, which the build needs, and to softcap S/L defense, which is better than a little mitigation from Time's Juncture. My build is not the only build, but the power is skippable for illusion, and you're not wasting time if you don't take it.
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I'm not sure I'd classify a nearly 20% to-hit debuff and 20% damage debuff as "a little mitigation." Not to mention that it's a spot for 5% more +rech.|
Originally Posted by TheOOB
which is better than a little mitigation from Time's Juncture.
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The questions is, why is it either/or? I've worked out a build that easily fits both in. I've got everything from the secondary and every primary except one of the invisibility powers. I've also got Hasten, CJ, Hover and four epic pool powers.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
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I have those, but I also took recall friend, a power I'd rather not loose(I'd lose CJ before it).|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I'm not sure I'd classify a nearly 20% to-hit debuff and 20% damage debuff as "a little mitigation." Not to mention that it's a spot for 5% more +rech.
The questions is, why is it either/or? I've worked out a build that easily fits both in. I've got everything from the secondary and every primary except one of the invisibility powers. I've also got Hasten, CJ, Hover and four epic pool powers. |
You have to remember that the closer you get to the defense softcap, the higher percent of the damage you take each point of defense takes off. I made the decision that softcapping defense and getting an additional 7.5% recharge as better than a resistable To-Hit debuff that only works when I'm in melee(and I'm not usually in melee) and costs extra end. You may come to a different conclusion in power selection than me, but I assure you, Time's Juncture is skippable(note skippable doesn't mean bad, or that you should skip it, only that you can skip it and not harm the integrity of your build)
I don't really have a big issue with either opinion on the TJ debate. I have it on mine and use it, but I also play a combo of melee and ranged (oh yeah and I'm not softcapped and I don't die alot either). But I feel like this debate is kind of missing one point. I hear arguments about softcapping and what does TJ "do for the player". I'd point out it does stuff for your teammates, so even if you think it's impact doesn't help your character that much, don't forget it's impact on your teammates.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
At the moment mu Ill/Time is only 27th level, and I use Time's Juncture frequently. Split-Infinitieve is primarily a team player, and there are three other Time characters in our static: two defenders and a corruptor. The stacking debuffs this offers is quites nice.
As for the "ranged illusionist" vs. "close-in illusionist" debate, well, to be honest, combat happens at melee range no matter what your approach is on the subject. You're deep in a Council base full of twisty passages, and the Warwolf scampers off like a frightened chicken, and tears into the squishies upon his return, no matter how much aggro your tank is generating. Or you're in one of those tiny rooms in an office map, and the 5th Column decides to open up with massed rocket launcher fire. So I may as well stick close to the middle with the tank, the other three Timey-whimeys, cackle madly as even slow-resistant foes hit the molasses pool, and launch the Army every time it recharges. (Lets be serious, PA isn't perma, isn't GOING to be perma until close to endgame, and at that point, it will be time to shelve the character and play something new.)
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There may be times that your Illusion controller must deal with an "up front and personal" foe. But my goal is usually to use my tools to keep those foes away or distracted. In the example you give of that Warwolf who takes a sudden interest in you, an application of Blind or Deceive will let you handle him. Once you learn to "play like a weenie" by staying invisible almost all of the time and by using Deceive a lot to control foes without allerting the other foes to your presence, then you can stay at range almost all the time. If a foe takes an interest in me, as long as I can last a hit or two, I can usually get that foe confused, distracted or held in time to avoid further damage. Once you get Spectral Terror, it makes it much easier to avoid aggro since Spooky will fear the group, letting you take foes out one at a time.|
Originally Posted by Seschat
At the moment mu Ill/Time is only 27th level, and I use Time's Juncture frequently. Split-Infinitieve is primarily a team player, and there are three other Time characters in our static: two defenders and a corruptor. The stacking debuffs this offers is quites nice.
As for the "ranged illusionist" vs. "close-in illusionist" debate, well, to be honest, combat happens at melee range no matter what your approach is on the subject. You're deep in a Council base full of twisty passages, and the Warwolf scampers off like a frightened chicken, and tears into the squishies upon his return, no matter how much aggro your tank is generating. Or you're in one of those tiny rooms in an office map, and the 5th Column decides to open up with massed rocket launcher fire. So I may as well stick close to the middle with the tank, the other three Timey-whimeys, cackle madly as even slow-resistant foes hit the molasses pool, and launch the Army every time it recharges. (Lets be serious, PA isn't perma, isn't GOING to be perma until close to endgame, and at that point, it will be time to shelve the character and play something new.) |
I think that Time's Juncture is one of the more interesting powers in the Time set and it is worth adjusting your playstyle to use it on occation. It does not have to be a "on all the time" power, but that debuff is really quite powerful.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
For me, it depends on your playstyle. Sure...if you play ranged you are prolly going to consider it a waste, or skippable power. But I always play in the thick of things, so it's really useful for me personally.
LOL "Like a weenie". I see the point of playing at range, and why it would work perfectly with illusion, but I go against the grain I suppose, and charge right in there after the pets grab some aggro. I rarely die either, on 0x8, so I must be doing something right. I've been on some teams too, where there was some almost team wipes, but I am usually the last one standing, and end up defeating the mob so ppl can rez.
I've seen people post Times Juncture as having an "effective" +20% Defense boost due to its -20% ToHit debuff. Does -ToHit = +Def on a 1:1 basis? I didn't think so.....
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Now, I'm not Arcanaville so I can't give you all the details and exceptions, but in general, yes. At even levels, -ToHit = +Def. Now as the enemies get to get higher and higher levels than you and the enemies shift from Minions through Bosses and into Arch-Villians, they start to resist part of the debuffs. IIRC AVs resist 85% of all debuffs meaning that -20% ToHit is now only equating to around 3% Defense.|
Originally Posted by Crysys
I've seen people post Times Juncture as having an "effective" +20% Defense boost due to its -20% ToHit debuff. Does -ToHit = +Def on a 1:1 basis? I didn't think so.....
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I'm sure someone not at work will post the real numbers for ya but that's the general gist of it.
Here's some of the details: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch
Beowulf -
Too many Alts, not enough 50's. Story of my life...
Quote:
The true full complete answer is "it depends" With no other buffs/debuffs in play yes equal amounts of -To Hit and +Def (all) are effectively the same. Problem is that is NEVER true if you are fighting anything above +0 level to you do to Purple Patch scaling which always effects To Hit Debuffs. (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch). Then on top of that is any foe with To Hit Debuff resistance will further mess with the equation, specifically this equation (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics). So while it is often reasonable to count some of the debuff as if it were defense one must always take the above into account as well.
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Originally Posted by Crysys
I've seen people post Times Juncture as having an "effective" +20% Defense boost due to its -20% ToHit debuff. Does -ToHit = +Def on a 1:1 basis? I didn't think so.....
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In this thread? I don't think anyone equated it to that.
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Originally Posted by Crysys
I've seen people post Times Juncture as having an "effective" +20% Defense boost due to its -20% ToHit debuff. Does -ToHit = +Def on a 1:1 basis? I didn't think so.....
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Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
I picked TJ and am planning to spec out of it. I'm a lvl 25 now.
My issues with Time's Juncture:
1) Short range.
2) The debuff is of a short duration, which means I have to spend more time in melee than I would otherwise like.
3) It's expensive endurance-wise.
4) It draws (often unwanted) aggro.
I don't mind moving in to melee range to cast a PBAOE, but at least let it have a real duration like Temporal Mending does. I can Hover in, cast Temporal Mending, and Hover right out. Same for Flash. Time's Juncture REQUIRES that I stay in melee range. Almost as soon as I leave, the debuff is gone.
When I get ambushed, I cast Flash, and then I unleash the Blinds, Deceives, and the PA. Once the wheel begins to roll, enemies rarely survive very long. Time's Juncture simply doesn't help much.
It's also expensive when combined with Superior Invisibility.
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Why combine it with Superior Invis? I find that it is an either/or . . . run SI or TJ. I have mostly been running TJ on teams, when the tank or other melee guys grab aggro, I can run around the outside of the group, debuffing and using my controls. If there is another Time character on the team, then two TJs combined provide a massive ToHit Debuff.|
Originally Posted by hiller
I picked TJ and am planning to spec out of it. I'm a lvl 25 now.
My issues with Time's Juncture: 1) Short range. 2) The debuff is of a short duration, which means I have to spend more time in melee than I would otherwise like. 3) It's expensive endurance-wise. 4) It draws (often unwanted) aggro. I don't mind moving in to melee range to cast a PBAOE, but at least let it have a real duration like Temporal Mending does. I can Hover in, cast Temporal Mending, and Hover right out. Same for Flash. Time's Juncture REQUIRES that I stay in melee range. Almost as soon as I leave, the debuff is gone. When I get ambushed, I cast Flash, and then I unleash the Blinds, Deceives, and the PA. Once the wheel begins to roll, enemies rarely survive very long. Time's Juncture simply doesn't help much. It's also expensive when combined with Superior Invisibility. |
I find TJ to be a situational power that is more team-oriented. I run SI most of the time, but when a big fight happens, I will often turn off SI and turn on TJ for the debuff -- it provides a team benefit while SI only protects me. As long as a good tank can hold the aggro, TJ provides a nice benefit.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I think ill/time is quite awesome as a melee controller, one important thing to keep in mind is that, more often than not, max range doesn't help illusion as the pets tend to run back or stop attacking. I found myself often having to jump and run past the mob group so the mobs are on the way between my pets and me, and the pets can then aggro the mobs... until somehow the fantasm starts picking his nose.
So with ill/time i went for the melee controller route... and it's quite epic so far, i'm used to just "tank" stuff, i teleport straight into the spawn then take the alpha while the pets run up to me and by the time the group/league can catch up i gathered a nice pile of debuffed mobs who barely hit anything else than me or my pets. The point is to take advantage of the unique ability of illusion controllers to aggro and gather up to 5 or 6 times more mobs than any tank, thanks to the pet aggro cap.
I think time juncture is a good asset to cover the melee defense hole and focus IOs on soft capping ranged/AoE, which is great as there is little melee def on the desired sets for controllers anyway.
After much thought i'm currently planning that respec build, with the crazy idea to keep the softcap to ranged/aoe without Power Boost, adding one AoE to the build (it's too frustrating without) and a patron pet on top of that for more pet goodness, so i can have 8 pets without temp powers and make fun of masterminds 
Oh, and Water spout for even more chaos.
Here's the build if it can help any melee ill/time, i'll respec into it in the next days, though it's based on full incarnate and no exemplar of course:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Code:
Going with the new alpha with 45 end mod/33 recharge/20 defense buff and Clairon of course.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1545;710;1420;HEX;| |78DA65944B4F135114C7EFB453B02DC8A34540A0500A425B5ADBC09E44508381040| |5598975840126193ACD746A74697CECDCF8DC291AC49D2E54443F85311A8D8AAFA5| |0AF5F101EA71CE1F1CD34926BF33FF7B5EF7CC9D193B3D5C75FFE0D94121D50EE94| |A3E9F1932B29669E8BA6A7AC694796D46D0E59D524D4BD3B5AC5A494F917F2E5BDE| |C9115D2FE43523BB25841D3EFB0A7373C9496D51CD8C29592D57D0158B3C45FDB84| |18193AAAEE60CD3B2B51A5B1A559559D5CC2F68399FFD3C9153D559BF6D1ED0B5F9| |05AB637F4E9B490E1B8B5A56B10C3333AA9ED2146B41C95281BCA59A679AA8CB18D| |D4B92C055F288B44B88B42C5C7D60922927C014333CC2BC19DC8E15E281646BB748| |9324CE271D61AD6282B9E32838C9F41D06A798B7096EF4E23EC135BA1466CF3130C| |38C1D6726A6A1D3D83D1CEBF2BC65ADEA1D73E77B661DF954726F526503D7AC0A32| |97A86F2FAFB9BDCF10F7941959452F6BCC65F2F3B3AFF0234F8072576316D561616| |B7728670D6BEE9A5714DB268BDA37E06B66EC25F32EA5A9C3DEEB7E739DFA5FE04F| |E6AE2238C46C1A647652ED00F6158873ED20E8A5B5065E931BD06B13E611C29C429| |8532882588A69C45E1A11B3426886D6BCCEDA32EDAF8573BB5AE0D71A12FFD14FB9| |DAF05EDA50278CBA5DE8E31E85B663EFED9B1CD7F10DFC0A1699E1EFCCC406F33C1| |D984E8E953B9FB01659031F327B5611F388B9427D77A3EFEE4BDCC39E2B20E6768E| |F2F6226FEF63D6A2C81B459E28F2C750F702C5C47186E28D92FD5EFB06782E7D29B| |09F79917C93D873729DCFC0DE0FE047F00B33FD19FC84B342FDA738564ABDE0BED3| |CF991BBEEDEF4F4809EEABE8D40E91D1238B4DA7D6CB7E3F7C8E6FF706E7ABC05C8| |25799BBAF839731AF6BCC56D9F12F28D1F5B7D12DA5142B5B4D9529E932A5BF4C19| |285346CB947152242892AD786BB7FF2BA5719FED69DBD30EFBA4C3561CF67080B60| |7FB0FD125092B| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
About the hold/blast/blast attack chain, i'm fairly sure it's not such a big deal to go without it. While i like it, i found myself not using it often with /time, as i have so much stuff to use already. While it's useful to clean easy mobs, i'd rather have an AoE and one more "fire and forget" pet so i can focus on supporting and running around to heal/buff/debuff the team as needed... at least when i don't dive into the next spawn faster than scrappers or brute, while surviving better than they do
Maybe i'll add a 3% def PvP IO to it later to i can round the stats a bit better.
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
TJ is a great power it's just tough on end. I'm going to really get some mileage out of it in the late game.
I'm preeeetty sure that TJ actually has a 25ft radius, not 15ft. That's the size of a blaster nuke, enough to cover most spawns. I'll be running it on my endgame ill/time build, which will play almost entirely in melee. Nearly all the time buffs and heals are PBAoE, so I might as well save myself the hassle of running back and forth. It'll also make a nice aggro grabber in case I need to tank in a pinch.