Having a Fire/Rad, my advice'd be for Defense. Ranged if you tend to play at just enough of a range to catch mobs in Hot Feet/Choking Cloud but stay out of point blank range. Smash/Lethal if you tend to stand toe-to-toe with the enemy. Fire/Rad seems to attract a lot of aggro and mezzes detoggle a lot of your primary powers (you can use Clarion to help with this if you're inclined though). Plus it doesn't need quite as much recharge as some controller combos (though whatever recharge you can sneak in is nice). Though you definitely want +recovery. That combo's a big endurance hog.
Also, it might be helpful if you included the combo you're asking advice about in your topic title (I.e. "Fire/Rad: What to build for?" or the like). Just something for future threads (I don't recall if you can edit topic titles in this forum).
I built my Fire/Rad for Recharge. You want to have AM up as often as possible, whether you're in a team or solo. Also, with high levels of Rechg, you can have Flashfire up every fight, Cinders and EM Pulse up for AoE Holds, and your debuffs working almost constantly. With the controls you have with Fire/ and /Rad, you'll rarely face an opponent capable of hitting you.
Please try my arcs:
Arc# 63910 "Why Do Bad Girls Like Bad Boys?" (length=Long, levels 40+)
Arc# 401500 "How to Be a Successful Professional Criminal" (length=Very Long, levels 1-10)
Quote:
This is also a perfectly valid way to build. It does mean you'll have to be on the ball with your controls and debuffs instead of relying on defense to do the work for you, but those will go a long way to ensuing your survival. And constant AM and debuffs will definitely boost your and the team's performance.|
Originally Posted by GGG247
I built my Fire/Rad for Recharge. You want to have AM up as often as possible, whether you're in a team or solo. Also, with high levels of Rechg, you can have Flashfire up every fight, Cinders and EM Pulse up for AoE Holds, and your debuffs working almost constantly. With the controls you have with Fire/ and /Rad, you'll rarely face an opponent capable of hitting you.
|
You definitely have to be on the ball, though.
Yeah, I'm not just looking for help on the Fire/Rad, but on the concept of "How to build a Troller" That is why I didn't address just Fire/Rad in the title.
Interesting that we already have 2 differing opinions just from the 2 replies. Please, keep the education coming. 
Really, there're two main build philosophies for Controllers that I see arising the most: Defense and Recharge.
Defense gives passive safety. More of a safety net for throwing out of your controls without worrying about getting smacked down by something out of left field. Smashing/Lethal and Ranged defenses are just sub-variations that depend on the kind of range you usually play at (S/L for melee range, Ranged for ranged).
However, a recharge focus helps you achieve constant lockdowns and helps with the numerous long cooldowns controllers have. My own Mind/Emp actually goes for maximizing recharge, completely disregarding passive defense other than running the Psi APP shield. She can keep someone Adrenalin Boosted nonstop and throw out a good number of Fortitudes, as well as having either Mass Domination or Mass Confusion up for almost every spawn (with Terrify about every third spawn if the team's moving fast).
You need enough recovery to run your powers without running dry, as well.
In the end, it depends on your desired playstyle which of those two major divides to go for. A bit more relaxed (with the Defense safety net) or highly active (mezzing and debuffing everything in sight before it can hurt you). Powerset combos also play into consideration. Illusion in particular tends to be better served by going for recharge than defense, because of Phantom Army. Elec Control, though, has rather fast recharging controls as its mainstays and if combined with a secondary that doesn't need a lot of recharge is relatively (relatively) low on recharge needs compared with a good number of other control sets. Ice Control also gets a lot of mileage from its Arctic Air toggle.
A good way to determine what you need is to look at your powers. Do you have really good powers with long recharges that you want up as much as possible? Then a recharge focused build is at least a decent idea there.
Generally and especially for team oriented builds I'm going to look for high recharge first. High recharge to get those controls up so one or more of them are ready for every spawn leading to mezzed foes facing you. That said if one is willing to either use Ice or Mace Mastery for S/L/'other' defense it can be possible to get quite a bit of S/L defense (i.e. soft capped) without necessarily sacrificing large amounts of recharge (181% global recharge, sufficient for perma Hasten, prior to Incarnate considerations) --> Click this DataLink to open the build! It's also not uncommon to see +defense (ranged) builds with significant quantities of recharge, particularly if one stops adding defense around 32% to enable soft capping via 1 luck.
Edit: Alef is pretty much spot on (and posted while I was typing) and my major point is to play around in Mids ... lots. The choice may not be as black or white as it initially appears. Doubly so once Incarnate boosts and/or frequently seen teammates come into play.
Yes, you can often combine high recharge and high or decent defense builds particularly if you're willing to make the necessary tradeoffs.
Let's take a look at Doomguide's linked build because it's a good example of some of those tradeoffs. It lacks a travel power. Not everyone feels like they needs a travel power particularly in this age of good travel temporary powers like Ninja Run and that flying board one, and you might or might not want one. Also, Doomguide took the entire Fighting pool and invested slots into pretty much pure set mule powers (Brawl/Boxing/Kick) just to get defense set bonuses, instead of other things they could've been doing with those slots and power picks.
Furthermore, this is overall a low damage and high survivability build. It doesn't have much in the way of personal damage so it's more oriented toward supporting the team while they kill. Freeing up slots invested into Kinetic Combat would lower personal survivability a bit but give slots to invest into the APP attacks.
This is overall what I'd consider a decent build if what you want is a fairly survivable team support build that doesn't do much damage. It's also pretty expensive with all the purples in it. And Doomguide's right that you don't necessarily need to softcap to get good mileage out of building in some defense.
That's another thing. Goals for the character (and your budget) pretty much determine the build--there're a wide variety of good ways to build controllers.
First off, I would suggest reading any of the guides written by Local Man. They are so good at explaining the powers and what you need to focus on, that you can get a very good idea of where to go with each power. You also get a ton of general controller information, even if the guide is not specifically about either of your chosen powersets.
Another really good guide is Silas Plays Support and So Can You. He writes primarily for corruptors, with none for trollers, but a ton of great information about the powers both AT's share. Plus, you know, near-perma fits of giggles (I almost drowned my keyboard by making the mistake of drinking coffee while reading).
Myself, I'd given up playing my fire/rad, because she got mezzed so often, with a quick death following, that it wasn't any fun to play at high levels. After reading everything I could find, I decided to try her out just one more time, slotting for Ranged Defense, rather than S/L Defense. The reasoning behind this is that most mezzes have a ranged component to them, and I wasn't having a tough time surviving other than the dreaded: mez--->reach for breakfree----->oops, dead.
This worked beautifully. I wish I could credit whoever mentioned this, but I just cannot recall. I have a fire/kin with good S/L defense, and very honestly, the ranged defense makes my /rad just as survivable as the /kin with S/L.
Also, for both Fire/ characters, using Super Speed in the missions plays an important defense role for me. I can quickly and easily position myself just outside of close melee range, but be close enough that the foes are getting nailed with both Hot Feet and Choking Cloud. I can easily scoot over if the foes try to close on me, being considerably faster than they are. Use 2 end reducers (or just 1 with a lvl 50 IO) in Super Speed if you choose this option, and the end cost is not a problem.
Six slot both Hot Feet and Choking Cloud aiming FIRST for end reduction, second for damage/hold, respectively. A full 6 set of MultiStrikes (which are VERY cheap) will give you maximum end reduction AND damage (or, 5 Scirocco's + end reducer, which is near-max end reduction, if you prefer the bonuses.). Frankenslot Choking Cloud to get maximum (that's 95% before ED kicks in) endurance, and be sure to get the Lockdown proc in there (credit: the /rad section in Local Man's illusion/rad guide.).
I opted for Cardiac in the Alpha slot in the fire/rad (with a ton of recharge bonuses), and have Spiritual for my fire/kin (with a lot of end reduction and quite a bit of recharge bonuses), so it's doable either way, but am very happy I chose the Cardiac on the /rad. It's a lot easier to find recharge bonuses than to find recovery bonuses. Use numina proc and miracle proc in health - if cost is a problem, use Hero Merits - you get 2 from running the SSA the first time, and 1 every 7 days thereafter.
I hope this info helps, I can't take any credit for any of it (except the Super Speed, That's my weird "thing" 
) - this is paraphrased from great guides and great info gleaned from brilliant forum minds. Good luck, and happy hunting!
Quote:
The problem here is each of the troller primaries is really a different AT (in the soft sense). They all play differently enough that you need to go with the concept of 'how to build an "X/Y" troller' rather than "How to build a troller". A Grav troller plays differently from an Illusion from a fire etc. General rules for all squishies not withstanding and IMO etc etc etc |
Originally Posted by Mezegis
Yeah, I'm not just looking for help on the Fire/Rad, but on the concept of "How to build a Troller" That is why I didn't address just Fire/Rad in the title.
Interesting that we already have 2 differing opinions just from the 2 replies. Please, keep the education coming. |
Quote:
Not sure I entirely agree with that.... the "oddballs" are illusion (which, in my mind, is less about "control" than it is about utter chaos |
Originally Posted by MikeRobe
The problem here is each of the troller primaries is really a different AT (in the soft sense). They all play differently enough that you need to go with the concept of 'how to build an "X/Y" troller' rather than "How to build a troller". A Grav troller plays differently from an Illusion from a fire etc. General rules for all squishies not withstanding and IMO etc etc etc
|
), and fire, because it's typically played in melee. All the other control sets are fairly similar:
-ST immob.
-ST hold
-Sleep, (or some other very soft control), which everyone but electric skips
-AoE immob, which I WISH everyone would skip (fire being the exception to this)
-AoE hold
-Pets (except mind)
A few have a damage attack, like carrion creepers for plant, or jolting chain for electric. A few have a stun, some have a slow, and a couple have a knockdown debuff (earth and ice). They have some differences in some secondary effects, like ice having slows, but this doesn't really have too much difference in playstyle.
When you mix in secondary powersets, that mixes stuff up a bit. A heavy buff set plays differently than an offensive debuff set. Add in epics, which can have defense, or melee attacks, or ranged attacks, or none of the above, and playstyles differ a bit more.
Wait... there are "general rules" for squishies? What general rules? Hey, no fair! I never got a rule book! What are the rules for squishies?
Quote:
I strongly disagree. (Which is too bad because you said some nice things about my guide in the earlier post.) Each primary leads to a different playstyle because each control powerset has a different focus. Some lead to melee (Fire, Ice, Elec) while others are ranged. Some have strong, durable pets (Illusion, Grav, Earth), others have damage pets (Fire, Plant) and some just have pets (Elec, Ice). One of the main reasons I like controllers so much is because there are such a wide range of playstyles.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Not sure I entirely agree with that.... the "oddballs" are illusion (which, in my mind, is less about "control" than it is about utter chaos
), and fire, because it's typically played in melee. All the other control sets are fairly similar: -ST immob. -ST hold -Sleep, (or some other very soft control), which everyone but electric skips -AoE immob, which I WISH everyone would skip (fire being the exception to this) -AoE hold -Pets (except mind) A few have a damage attack, like carrion creepers for plant, or jolting chain for electric. A few have a stun, some have a slow, and a couple have a knockdown debuff (earth and ice). They have some differences in some secondary effects, like ice having slows, but this doesn't really have too much difference in playstyle. When you mix in secondary powersets, that mixes stuff up a bit. A heavy buff set plays differently than an offensive debuff set. Add in epics, which can have defense, or melee attacks, or ranged attacks, or none of the above, and playstyles differ a bit more. Wait... there are "general rules" for squishies? What general rules? Hey, no fair! I never got a rule book! What are the rules for squishies? |
First, what do you consider to be a base-line controller? Earth? Let's use that as a start. Earth is a low damage, high control set. Earth has the typical ST Hold, ST Immob, AoE Immob, AoE Hold -- er wait, Earth's AoE Hold is not typical because it is persistant and can hold bosses. It has a ranged AoE Stun, a PB AoE Sleep, a persistant AoE Knockdown and a persistant Targetted AoE Slow/Defense Debuff patch. Except for the PB AoE Sleep, it can all be played from range three main ranged AoE controls -- Stalagmites+Stone Cages (That AoE Immob you don't like), Earthquake, or Volcanic Gasses. And Quicksand can be used underneath all of them and on its own. The Defense Debuff in the set is huge, making it easier for teams to hit tough targets. Plus the pet is tough enough to be a decent tank and somewhat makes up for the low damage of the set, so Rocky has a big impact on the set.
Illusion you have admitted is different, so I won't go into that.
Now Ice: Another low damage set, but this one trades high control for lots of Slow and -Recharge and a different playstyle. Same ST Hold, ST Immob, AoE Immob. This one has a PB AoE Hold and not ranged like Earth. It has a cone Slow. It has a ranged Sleep which is far more useful. The key powers are a persistant Knockdown patch and a toggle PB AoE Confuse/Slow/Afraid aura. Arctic Air turns an Ice controller into more of a melee player than ranged, which is very different than an Earth controller. The main role of an Ice controller is to reduce damage taken by melee teammates rather than control large groups from range. The pet? Jack is somewhat fragile, he does OK damage and some control but has minimal effect on the set.
Fire: Higher Damage and moderate control, with a melee playstyle. Same ST Hold, ST Immob and AoE Immob. Same PB AoE Hold as Ice and Illusion. It has a similar ranged control combo as Earth, using Flashfire+Fire Cages in the same way as Stalagmites+Stone Cages (why is the AoE immob for Fire useful, but not Earth?) But it is a lot different than Ice because instead of a PB AoE aura of Conf/Slow/Afraid, its aura does Damage/Slow/Afraid -- that damage makes a huge difference. Smoke is a ranged perception debuff, Bonfire is a persistant targetted AoE KnockBACK instead of knockdown, making its use substantially different. And of course, the Fire Imps are there mostly for damage and make poor tanks but add a lot of damage to the set.
Plant: Fairly high Damage and fairly high control, but from short range. Again, similar ST Hold, ST Immob, AoE Immob -- er, but the AoE Immob does twice the damage of the other AoE Immobs. This AoE Hold is ranged, but not persistant like Volcanic Gasses. The key power is a Cone Confuse, which combined with the AoE Immob, Roots, does pretty decent AoE damage. Then you get Carion Creepers, a unique pet that can draw some aggro, do some damage and provide AoE control. Then you get a ranged AoE sleep and an Immobile AoE Regen buff. The pet contributes to damage and some control, but isn't very tough. A Plant controller relies heavily upon Seeds+Roots for AoE control and Damage, but is somewhat weak on single target damage. It's best playstyle is at short range for optimal use of the Seeds cone.
Electric: Another low damage controller with a melee playstyle, but this one has an odd mix of control powers and lots of endurance drain. Similar ST Hold, ST Immob, but this time the AoE Immob does not have -Knockback, which can make a big difference. Ranged AoE Hold. Location targetted AoE sleep patch and a PB AoE Endurance Drain toggle provides some similarities to Ice's Ice Patch+Arctic Air, but End Drain takes some time to take effect. Jolting Chain and Synaptic Overload are both chaining powers, which means if they miss the first guy, you're hosed. Overload is interesting in that it does not draw aggro, so if it misses you can wait for it to recharge. The pets are fragile and do moderate damage, but they are the most damage Elec has.
Mind: Good single target damage in low levels, but great AoE control in high levels, no pet and all ranged. Do I really need to go into how different Mind Control is than any other control set? Three controls that do not draw aggro? No Immob powers, two Sleep Powers, two Confuse powers. Somewhat similar to Earth Control in that there are three primary AoE controls (plus a secondary in Mass Hypnosis), but they are one-shot controls while Earth has two of the three are persistant. The playstyle is very different.
and lowly Gravity: High single-target damage, but very slow, with poor AoE control -- it relies heavily upon the pet. ST Immob and ST Hold, but another AoE Immob without Knockback protection. Ranged AoE Hold. Two single-target damage powers. Widely disliked Intang power and a quirky AoE Teleport/Stun that seems to fill the spot of the main AoE control but does it poorly. The pet becomes the main AoE control power/Tank.
I have found each of my controllers to have a different playstyle even with the same secondary. Fire/Rad is different than Earth/Rad, is different that Plant/Rad, is different than Elec/Rad, is different than Ill/Rad. Controllers have more divergent playstyles than any other AT in the game.
As for a general rule for building Controllers? Recharge and Recovery is usually, but not always, a good idea. Some controllers, due to the primary or secondary, may not need as much Recharge or as much Recovery.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
See all the excepts there? that's why I say they all play "differently". Fire plays in melee, so does ice (its best mez imo is a pbaoe toggle), plant can play in close but is better at range. Earth is control heavy, fire is damage heavy. Grav is gimp |
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Not sure I entirely agree with that.... the "oddballs" are illusion (which, in my mind, is less about "control" than it is about utter chaos
), and fire, because it's typically played in melee. All the other control sets are fairly similar: -ST immob. -ST hold -Sleep, (or some other very soft control), which everyone but electric skips -AoE immob, which I WISH everyone would skip (fire being the exception to this) -AoE hold -Pets (except mind) A few have a damage attack, like carrion creepers for plant, or jolting chain for electric. A few have a stun, some have a slow, and a couple have a knockdown debuff (earth and ice). They have some differences in some secondary effects, like ice having slows, but this doesn't really have too much difference in playstyle. When you mix in secondary powersets, that mixes stuff up a bit. A heavy buff set plays differently than an offensive debuff set. Add in epics, which can have defense, or melee attacks, or ranged attacks, or none of the above, and playstyles differ a bit more. Wait... there are "general rules" for squishies? What general rules? Hey, no fair! I never got a rule book! What are the rules for squishies? |
They all have pets except... they all have an aoe immob except ... etc. Secondaries exacerbate the differences. Earth/Time and Illusion/Storm (heck, fire/storm fire/rad for that matter) are the same AT... they play nothing alike. Unlike, for example, a BS/SD scrapper and a Claw/fire scrapper.I'd share my copy of the general rules with you but you disagreed with me so... :P
I'm more with Mike and Local Man here ... Controllers are perhaps the most diverse in playstyles of all the AT's. Just think on how each of these might commonly play >> Ice/Sonic, Mind/FF, Earth/Rad, Ill/Storm, and Fire/Kin.
Heck I've 3 Earth/Storms at level 50 and they all play rather differently (far more differently than 3 of my Claws/SR builds for instance). One is very smashy and in your face, no Hurricane using Seismic Smash etc., the next is a stun monster. Has Hurricane but rarely uses, but loves to use Stalagmites, Thunderclap and Fault on foes till they're harmless and the last is more 'classic', Herdi-cane the Stone Caged mobs into a bunch and unloading Fireballs.
EDIT: About the only common thread (and more to the OP's opening post) for me running thru all of them is they all see relatively large benefits to looking for +recharge and that's what all of my builds for the paired sets above went for particularly in their 1st basic builds.
As Local Man mention, control sets are all very different from one another, and controller secondaries, the defender support sets, are honestly even more different for one another IMO, so there is more variety in controller play styles than any other archtype in the game, so build advice is best given by the set.
I'll agree that recharge is fairly universally important to all controller builds, most controller primary and secondary sets have very powerful high recharge powers you'll want to use as often as possible, and for control powers it's usually more useful to use a power multiple times than it is to make it have a little higher duration(to stack magnitude or control multiple targets quickly). With recharge naturally comes recovery, as you use your (often expensive) powers more often, you need more end to compensate.
Defense is a mixed bag, the melee sets need it more than the other sets(with fire needing it most of all, being a bit weaker on the control than ice or elec), and it's useful for an build, but no matter one no controller should sacrifice their controlling ability for some def. An enemy who is held deals no damage at all.
Hello,
Long time melee player and I'm looking to branch off into the world of Controllers. However, there seems to be a ton of build options. What should I be going for when I make a build? I'm working on a Fire/Rad as a base.
I have builds for Soft capping Ranged, S/L, Recharge heavy, Hold duration, Crazy PBAoE toggles, etc... All seem to have perks, but I'm lost for what is the way to go. Softcapping is useless if I do junk damage/control, Crazy PBAoE has me at over 4 end/sec burn just standing there, Recharge heavy doesn't have a ton of defense, so I'll die as soon a bunch of guys looks at me.
Hopefully you Controller Guru's will have some guidance for a Troller newbie.
Thanks!