Bots/Time on SO's as effective as Ill/Rad vs. AV's?

There was a bunch of chatter on the Help channel now that a few /Time MM's have gotten their toons to lvl 50. Basically, the claim (and this was from many players) is that a Bots/Time/Mace MM on MOSTLY SO's (think they had slotted a few +Recovery uniques and maybe a proc or two on pets) was outperforming a multi-billion inf Ill/Rad build versus AV's...and this was from players who were running AV killing tests with both.

Elsewhere on the forums, I've even seen comments that a Bots/Time/Mace MM on SO's is almost "game breaking."

What about this combo would make it so effective for soloing AV's, especially when compared to such an expensive Ill/Rad build?

It's the "OMG New Good Set!" craze, along with IOs to insane expensive levels.

Time Manipulation is good, but not "OMG the best!" and certainly not "game-breaking".


1) Power Boost is the reason, if anything. That power's interaction with Farsight may very well be nerfed. I actually expect it to be nerfed.

2) Time Manipulation masterminds do not have the invulnerable aggro-magnet pets that illusion does. Therefore, it isn't as good in that way.

3) Time Manipulation is very dependent on debuffs, like radiation emission is, but doesn't have as high levels of debuff, especially lower regen debuffs.
Debuffs are resisted by those stronger enemies so the more the better. Time is lacking, especially for a mastermind.


4) They're talking about masterminds.
It's a lot easier to solo AVs/GMs as a mastermind than most other archetypes and set combinations. I have soloed Avs as bots/ff, and even was soloing Jack In Irons one Halloween before my team crossed the long zone.
I would actually be surprised if the better MM builds couldn't solo AVs. MMs are just awesome.


5) I've been running a Demons/Time MM. I like force Field more.
Time just lacks the survivability, at lower and mid levels, compared to Force Field. Mez protection is also huge, which Time has none of. You don't have to worry about buffs being resisted or too many targets exceeding the debuff's target cap either.

Time Manipulation is good, but busy and not as good performance as some other secondaries.

I was just posting in the Demon Traps / Time thread above.

What I did is removed hasten from the build I posted there and Frankenslotted 5 slotted Defense Recharge IOs in Farsight which made it perma. So between the hit debuff of Time Juncture and Farsight your at least defense capped to Melee and AOE. As long as you can force mobs into that positions your good I guess. Range is going to be your issue. But against AVs it is mostly Melee and AOE so your good. Time does offer some regeneration. But it does not show up on the stats so I need to add it up to see.

Six slotting Farsight for 3 SO of defense and 3 SO of recharge makes it perma and gives you the defense numbers. 4 slots of hit debuff and 2 endurance in Time Juncture offer you the hit debuff.

But your still not going to obtain defense caps without eating a purple inspiration or getting some set bonuses in place.

So I think some of what people are saying is a bit off. Unless your going to feed yourself and the pets purples inspiration for the fight and make sure you keep getting them. I guess you could fill your mailbox up as well to add an additional 21 inspirations.

End result Farsight is going to offer on average 14.5% in defenses. But your still short 30% range defense. Time Juncture is going to offer around 15% so for melee and aoe your at about 29% which leaves you trying to get 16% defense. I don't know if Time Juncture is like Storms Hurricane that leaves a lingering debuff for a short period of time. Either way I wouldn't rely on hit debuff to linger long enough to help you with range defenses. But as I stated AVs usually are in your face so range is not much of an issue.

Multi-billion might be a bit too much bragging on the MM side.

Ill/rad only needs perma PA and has full coverage of survability, wich is not that hard to reach. The only part you need to worry about is possible AOE that might hit you, other then that its just finding enough tools around to increase damage.

Incarnate with pets, few extra (epic)poolpower attacks, i assume the incarnate procs might already be enough to increase your damage (or resist debuff) greatly.