I though Flurry was just like Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu, being a small cone.
I've never taken Flurry so I'm not positive, I just know the animation is the same for all 3 and Shadow Maul and Sands are both cones. I've gotten very adept at lining up 3 targets with sands these days. Just target the one directly behind the one in your face.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
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Keep Calm & Chive On!
It should not be, nor ever have been, a ST attack. That's just...stupid. On so many levels, especially given that animation.
I find it highly ironic that the attack power from a SPEED set is actually the slowest of the three travel attack powers (Air Superiority is fastest)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm not sure that's doable at this stage, sadly, simply because it would require giving out respecs for people who slotted with IOs.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Turn this single target attack into a narrow melee cone (20 degree arc; standard melee range; same damage)
Turn Flurry into a PBAoE (slightly less damage) |
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Increase the damage (if it is to remain a single target attack)
Somehow remove the rooting and allow the player to move away from the actual animation; freeing the character up to do other actions (which could give it a more 'now you see me, now you don't' approach when in combat) [or apply a similar 'per-tick-chance-for-mez-effect' equation to Flurry that's being used for Static Field's sleep effect] |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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The problem you run into is the fact that the devs don't want power pool powers to be better than powers available in powersets.
The Medicine pool is not better than Empathy.
The Fighting pool is not better than a melee set or a defense set.
And the attacks found in travel pools are not better than the melee attacks available in any ATs powerset.
There's also the fact that AT modifiers apply. If you use Flurry with a Controller it isgoing to do less damage than using it with a Scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You think anyone actually takes this power, or slots it?
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I'm not sure that's doable at this stage, sadly, simply because it would require giving out respecs for people who slotted with IOs.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Not saying that Flurry should be as good as Shadow Maul but Flurry should, at the very least, be better than Boxing.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The problem you run into is the fact that the devs don't want power pool powers to be better than powers available in powersets.
The Medicine pool is not better than Empathy. The Fighting pool is not better than a melee set or a defense set. And the attacks found in travel pools are not better than the melee attacks available in any ATs powerset. There's also the fact that AT modifiers apply. If you use Flurry with a Controller it is[]going to do less damage than using it with a Scrapper. |
Also, you cant really compare a four power Pool to a nine power set... it would take some doing to even find parity; nevermind out-performance. (Although with Speeds new add-on, it could do more for some selections... than some selections: Fast travel, stealth, global recharge and now an instant replay button)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Why? They are both pool powers. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Not saying that Flurry should be as good as Shadow Maul but Flurry should, at the very least, be better than Boxing.
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Should Head Splitter be better than Golden Dragonfly just because they're in different sets? Same thing.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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What does that have to do with anything? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Why? They are both pool powers.
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| Should Head Splitter be better than Golden Dragonfly just because they're in different sets? |
When going for changes between powerset powers; there's a larger pool of comparison that must be considered (power to be changed vs. the other powers within the set; vs. corresponding companion set (primary/secondary); vs. other sets within the same primary/secondary.
Pool powers; not so much.
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| Same thing. |
You have a power that's in a 'speed' set that essentially does the same thing as a power in the 'fighting' set. Funny thing is the power in the fighting set does less damage... and the power in the speed set is actually slower.
It's more of a concept thing, that is so skewed by the mechanics, its creating a (mostly) non-viable option where there shouldn't be. (There is nothing non-viable about Headsplitter or Golden Dragonfly).
There's also the possibility of 'cascading effect' because of the new power add-ons; especially with something with the magnitude of Speed's '5th'. I'll elaborate further upon request.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I think we're confused why you're able to say Flurry should be better than Boxing because you didn't explain. Better equals faster? More Damage? Less Animation Time? Then after that *why* should it be better? Boxing and Flurry are both single target, tier 1 attacks in a pool power set. What are you measuring it against that indicates one should be better than the other?|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
What does that have to do with anything?
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Personally I'd love it if Flurry was a single target attack with a very fast one punch-like animation on the order of a .50-.75 second animation without a recharge time (akin to Teleport). That way the attack in the speed set could be its own attack chain. It's damage (low) and endurance cost (perhaps moderatly high in comparison) would have to be taken into account, but I know at least Brutes would find it useful.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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Originally Posted by Computer
I think we're confused why you're able to say Flurry should be better than Boxing because you didn't explain. Better equals faster? More Damage? Less Animation Time? Then after that *why* should it be better? Boxing and Flurry are both single target, tier 1 attacks in a pool power set. What are you measuring it against that indicates one should be better than the other?
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It was, primarily, a counterpoint to the quote below and stayed well within the context that the topic was being steered towards; really shouldn't have been any confusion. That I even went into detail about it was mostly to get things back on track.
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The problem you run into is the fact that the devs don't want power pool powers to be better than powers available in powersets. The Medicine pool is not better than Empathy. The Fighting pool is not better than a melee set or a defense set. And the attacks found in travel pools are not better than the melee attacks available in any ATs powerset. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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That explains why Flurry shouldn't rival a Primary/Secondary attack, but why should it be better than Boxing? (Sorry if it is clear, but I'm still not getting it.)|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
It was, primarily, a counterpoint to the quote below and stayed well within the context that the topic was being steered towards; really shouldn't have been any confusion. That I even went into detail about it was mostly to get things back on track.
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Considering changing Flurry's damage is something stated in your opening post, I'd consider us still on track.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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Originally Posted by Computer
That explains why Flurry shouldn't rival a Primary/Secondary attack, but why should it be better than Boxing? (Sorry if it is clear, but I'm still not getting it.)
Considering changing Flurry's damage is something stated in your opening post, I'd consider us still on track. |
Boosting its damage was just one example of an option on an unprioritized short list... if the Devs decide to do something with Flurry, then it is at their discretion which item(s) on the list list to go with; if any at all. It wasn't there to be the sole hingepoint for tangents out into left field.
So some people don't think Flurry's damage should be upped; I'm fine with that; I have other options. Just state as such and continue on; don't turn it into something its not meant to be.
If one of those tangents wouldn't have been taken; we wouldn't even be discussing Boxing vs. Flurry; which, as stated, is largely irrelevant and was just used as an example to counterpoint the impression that I'm trying to suggest that side pools be made as powerful as a powersets. Which I'm not.
(As well as it being almost moot, being that there are pool powers that are already equivalent to similar powerset powers at base ability.)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Really? |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
You have a power that's in a 'speed' set that essentially does the same thing as a power in the 'fighting' set. Funny thing is the power in the fighting set does less damage... and the power in the speed set is actually slower.
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Lets look at how slow Flurry is compared to Boxing, if it's really just a concept issue that you're having.
Boxing is around a 1 second animation. You are throwing a single punch.
Flurry is around a 3 second animation. But you are throwing EIGHT punches in that time.
Seems pretty fast to me, from a concept standpoint. Your speed allows you to throw 8 punches in the time it takes normal people to throw 3 (or less).
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Taking that same concept:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really?
Lets look at how slow Flurry is compared to Boxing, if it's really just a concept issue that you're having. Boxing is around a 1 second animation. You are throwing a single punch. Flurry is around a 3 second animation. But you are throwing EIGHT punches in that time. Seems pretty fast to me, from a concept standpoint. Your speed allows you to throw 8 punches in the time it takes normal people to throw 3 (or less). |
(assuming that all hits land and all meet the chance to stun); in the time it takes Flurry to stun one opponent, Boxing would've stunned two.
Excluding stun talk; the boxing guy is able to attack mobs at a rate of 2 to 1. If these were the only attacks they were using, the boxing guy is defeating mobs almost twice as fast as our 'fast-handed' guy.
If our two guys were allowed another action, our boxing guy would make his hit then start talking on his cell phone (emote) before our flurry guy finishes flailing around.
[Our boxing guy[] would even be able to change his position faster than our flurry guy - which, conceptually, has been shown as the other way around in nearly all instances where 'flurry' has been shown [in media]]
[Lets use your example even. Say both our guys had on Cha-Ching! Gloves (imaginary proc = 100% to knock $1 out out the target's pocket); for all the swinging the flurry guy is doing, he's still coming up a day late... and a dollar short (lol)]
Your perception on concept differs from mine.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I could just state I think its damage is fine where it is (I personally don't) but then all we have is two people who disagree and nowhere to go from there. I like to defend my position and elaborate why I think Flurry should do X amount of damage. Most likely it would be comparisons between attack powers in other pools and other similar abilities in power sets (Jab for example). Understanding where you are coming from so I can take an opinion based on your thought process is what I wanted, not just a flat out 'no' (Which I've found most people don't like ex. jranger).|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
So some people don't think Flurry's damage should be upped; I'm fine with that; I have other options. Just state as such and continue on; don't turn it into something its not meant to be.
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If you'd rather not discuss your list though, I will comply.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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I don't mind a bit of discussion... trust me, I like arguing a point to a fault (when the situation calls for it). I do mind when people focus on only one thing (out of many) and either take it completely out of context and/or turn that one thing into the whole of the discussion while drowning out other listed options, when there may be actually be something more plausible on that list.|
Originally Posted by Computer
I could just state I think its damage is fine where it is (I personally don't) but then all we have is two people who disagree and nowhere to go from there. I like to defend my position and elaborate why I think Flurry should do X amount of damage. Most likely it would be comparisons between attack powers in other pools and other similar abilities in power sets (Jab for example). Understanding where you are coming from so I can take an opinion based on your thought process is what I wanted, not just a flat out 'no' (Which I've found most people don't like ex. jranger).
If you'd rather not discuss your list though, I will comply. |
[That being said, I will almost always try to push my counterpoint as quickly and clearly as I can so as to either accept or nullify any rebuttal quickly, make any modifications where necessary and move on. I'm not keen on getting pulled into long, drawn out whizzing matches with people just for the sake of doing so and if I feel that's what is happening; I will withdraw from conversing with that person, along those lines and move on - regardless of how the teeter's tottering.]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Given identical opponents with 200 HP, here's how it breaks down. All calculations are done using the scrapper damage modifier. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Excluding stun talk; the boxing guy is able to attack mobs at a rate of 2 to 1. If these were the only attacks they were using, the boxing guy is defeating mobs almost twice as fast as our 'fast-handed' guy.
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Boxing deals 47.55 damage and animates in 1.07 seconds. It takes the Boxing guy 5 hits to defeat the 200 HP opponent. The Boxing guy spends 15.35 seconds between animation and recharge time.
Flurry deals 71.57 damage and animates in 3.07 seconds. It takes the Flurry guy 3 hits to defeat the 200 HP opponent. He spends 15.21 seconds between animation and recharge.
That's a 0.14 second difference between the two powers to defeat an identical opponent. I'm not a math expert, but 0.14 seconds is NOT "almost twice as fast". The only way it would be almost twice as fast is if the opponent in question had less than 47.55 HP.
An opponent with 60 HP would take 2 attacks from the Boxing guy to 1 from the Flurry guy. In that case Flurry wins, because Flurry would take 3.07 seconds to defeat his opponent, while Boxing would take 4.64.
Take it up to 1,000 HP, and let's see what happens.
22 hits from the Boxing guy, taking 76.04 seconds to defeat the opponent.
14 hits from the Flurry guy, taking 84.89 seconds to defeat the opponent.
A 12 second difference, so the Boxing guy pulls ahead some there. But it's still nowhere near "almost twice as fast"
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Given identical opponents with 200 HP, here's how it breaks down. All calculations are done using the scrapper damage modifier.
Boxing deals 47.55 damage and animates in 1.07 seconds. It takes the Boxing guy 5 hits to defeat the 200 HP opponent. The Boxing guy spends 17.85 seconds between animation and recharge time. Flurry deals 71.57 damage and animates in 3.07 seconds. It takes the Flurry guy 3 hits to defeat the 200 HP opponent. He spends 18.21 seconds between animation and recharge. That's a 0.36 second difference between the two powers to defeat an identical opponent. I'm not a math expert, but 0.36 seconds is NOT "almost twice as fast". |
Brute vs 200HP:
B = 31.7 = 7 hits at 24.99
F = 47.7 = 5 hits at 30.35
Brute vs. 1000HP:
B = 31.7 = 31 hits at [110.67]; miscalc
F = 47.7 = 20 hits at 121.4
Granted, even at worse case scenario... it isn't [almost] twice as fast in all cases but there are instances where it could be close; seemingly as the HP of the target goes up and dependent on which AT modifier one wishes to use to prove their case.
I'll concede that that was a flawed statement however you've only done a marginal disprove of the 5 examples that were given to you. So you really haven't succeeded your point; whatever that may be.
[I will also contend (as an afterthought) that as the recharge drops [] below the animation time my flawed statement becomes less flawed.]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Flurry, although a nice concept fit in a set based on speed, seems to fall flat in actual application.
It appears that for the activation time, the tangible effects fall short and out of immersion with the set's concept.
Can we please either:
Turn this single target attack into a narrow melee cone (20 degree arc; standard melee range; [slightly less damage])
Turn Flurry into a PBAoE (slightly less damage)
[redacted suggestion for damage increase due to rechecking comparable DPS in Mids; stemming from convo here]
Somehow remove the rooting and allow the player to move away from the actual animation; freeing the character up to do other actions (which could give it a more 'now you see me, now you don't' approach when in combat)
[or apply a similar 'per-tick-chance-for-mez-effect' equation to Flurry that's being used for Static Field's sleep effect]
I know the request to change Flurry has been made; repeatedly in the past... but hey, here's yet another.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars