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Originally Posted by Prime313
Okay, I have a Invuln/SS tanker approaching level 40. Right now endurance can sometimes be a problem, especially if I am going all out.
I wanted to make this guy invuln/ss/fire while running Cardiac in the alpha slot. My current end usage with max cardiac will be .96/s and my recovery rate will be 2.98/s. I'm curious if someone with more experience knows if I am going to end up with huge endurance problems. I don't mind keeping blues on hand if it means Fireball over Energy APP, but I don't want to have all blues and be chugging them like an addict, either. Additionally, would going Ageless Core for the destiny power to solve any end issues be a stupid choice given the Rebirth Radial is much better for survivability. If anyone has some experience with this I'd appreciate the help. The build in question: Code:
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You've gone after +Recharge on your tank instead of using your set bonuses to softcap. Maneuvers on an Invuln tank?!?!?!? And your S/L resist isn't even capped, even with tough. BAD TANK! BAAAAAD!
Your big AoE (Foot Stomp) is slotted for ZERO endurance reduction and you're depending on Spiritual.
You have all these attacks and all this recharge but not enough recovery or endurance reduction to support it.
Something is going to have to give. My advice would be to better slot for endurance reduction and go Spiritual for a recharge boost.
And for the love of bob, GET RID OF MANEUVERS!
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I am also having an End issue on my Level 32 INV/SS. I have 3 slotted Stam, and all my attacks are 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 End red, Toggles all have an End Red. I'm sucking down blue pills every chance I get, even combining others into blue when I can. Is this something I just have to live with until Conserve Power and Phys Perf? I hope not, because the character just isn't fun to play when I need to rest every other mob set.
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Originally Posted by Woldsman
I am also having an End issue on my Level 32 INV/SS. I have 3 slotted Stam, and all my attacks are 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 End red, Toggles all have an End Red. I'm sucking down blue pills every chance I get, even combining others into blue when I can. Is this something I just have to live with until Conserve Power and Phys Perf? I hope not, because the character just isn't fun to play when I need to rest every other mob set.
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Note: I REALLY don't recommend the various soft-cap builds for leveling up. You're in a really bad place without full slotting on some of them.
At lower levels, frankenslotting your attacks is what I'd recommend.
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I'm not sure I get the "Don't take Maneuvers on an Invul Tank" notion. People pay 2.5B (ish) for an IO that gives you less Defense than Maneuvers 3-slotted with LOTG.
It's on my Invul Tank and I see no reason whatsoever that I wouldn't keep it.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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That 2-billion IO bonus doesn't use any endurance, whereas Maneuvers eats up end like crazy.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm not sure I get the "Don't take Maneuvers on an Invul Tank" notion. People pay 2.5B (ish) for an IO that gives you less Defense than Maneuvers 3-slotted with LOTG.
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Very simple you say you have end issues well maneuvers is a big end hog fo very little help with def. Also who said anything about 2.5 bill for an IO? Your Knockout blow is poorly slotted for damage that is one of your major attacks and u have it slotted for holds.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm not sure I get the "Don't take Maneuvers on an Invul Tank" notion. People pay 2.5B (ish) for an IO that gives you less Defense than Maneuvers 3-slotted with LOTG.
It's on my Invul Tank and I see no reason whatsoever that I wouldn't keep it. |
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Hmm, can you give me a reason to get rid of maneuvers? You are stating a lot without saying anything useful, imo. I can't really justify the glad IO, even though I have the money for it. Paying for that IO is basically another decent build for an alt that I could do. I could take another power (none of which are that appealing) and cap with another reactive armor and probably another kinetic combat. I don't really see how that would be a net gain though, other than slightly less endurance. I'd lose recharge and damage. Maybe that is better; maybe it isn't. I'd appreciate your reasoning for what you say.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You've gone after +Recharge on your tank instead of using your set bonuses to softcap. Maneuvers on an Invuln tank?!?!?!? And your S/L resist isn't even capped, even with tough. BAD TANK! BAAAAAD!
Your big AoE (Foot Stomp) is slotted for ZERO endurance reduction and you're depending on Spiritual. You have all these attacks and all this recharge but not enough recovery or endurance reduction to support it. Something is going to have to give. My advice would be to better slot for endurance reduction and go Spiritual for a recharge boost. And for the love of bob, GET RID OF MANEUVERS! |
Additionally, my S/L resist is 89.6%. I know the .4% is significant, but I'm not really sure it's a deal breaker. If it is I can two slot tough to get it.
And yes, I have a version of the build where it is S/L capped with energy mastery and the Spiritual Alpha. The thing is, to me that looks boring. It doesn't have the damage output that would be needed to solo things in a reasonable amount of time, and is slightly more survivable (90% S/L vs the current 89.6%). Fun.
Is there something inherently worse about depending on Cardiac for end reduction versus depending on Spiritual for recharge?
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I used to have my KoB slotted with Dam/Mez's so I had the best of both worlds and swore by it. I swore by it because in them days I had less defense so active mitigation when it worked had a nice impact on my survivability.|
Originally Posted by LSK
Very simple you say you have end issues well maneuvers is a big end hog fo very little help with def. Also who said anything about 2.5 bill for an IO? Your Knockout blow is poorly slotted for damage that is one of your major attacks and u have it slotted for holds.
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I think without checking I have 4 dam IOs from a set giving me 3.75% S/L def and 2 hold IOs that give me 2.5% def to E/N. More defense makes me less reliant on the hold but I can reapply the hold pretty quickly if needed maybe even before the previous hold duration expires depending on what I am kablamming.
Manuevers is something that could be endurance hungry and not needed on a Inv/SS. With sets alone, you can soft cap to all but psi quite easily, and then still have a damaging tank, what you may lose in rechg bonuses and so dps you can gain back in dpe and so dps.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You quoted me in your message and I did not say I had end issues. In fact, I most certainly do not, not in the least bit. How do you know how my Knockout blow is slotted? Are you confusing me for someone else?|
Originally Posted by LSK
Very simple you say you have end issues well maneuvers is a big end hog fo very little help with def. Also who said anything about 2.5 bill for an IO? Your Knockout blow is poorly slotted for damage that is one of your major attacks and u have it slotted for holds.
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Well I still haven't seen any compelling reason to get of Man for my Tank.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Following that goal I came up with this:|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Manuevers is something that could be endurance hungry and not needed on a Inv/SS. With sets alone, you can soft cap to all but psi quite easily, and then still have a damaging tank, what you may lose in rechg bonuses and so dps you can gain back in dpe and so dps.
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That set-up (4 Kin Combat and 2 Basilisk) would be a big improvement over what he's got there now. The original post has 4 Basilisks, a Crushing Impact Acc/Dmg/Rchg, and a generic Dmg IO in Knockout Blow. Yeah, the recharge bonus from Basilisk is nice, but not worth what you have give up for it to slot it in KOB. With 4 KC and two Basilisk, KOB would do considerably more damage per hit, Maneuvers would no longer be needed to hit the S/L def softcap, and you would still have some hold duration in KOB if that's your thing.
| I think without checking I have 4 dam IOs from a set giving me 3.75% S/L def and 2 hold IOs that give me 2.5% def to E/N. More defense makes me less reliant on the hold but I can reapply the hold pretty quickly if needed maybe even before the previous hold duration expires depending on what I am kablamming. |
I agree, manouvres on an invul tank is a bit 
... bear in mind, you will be running: temp invul, unyielding, Invincible, tough (unless you get the alpha) and weave. thats 5 toggles, then add the leadership, that's 6 and apart from stamina, and physical perfection, and insps, an invul tanker has no other way to get endurance boosts. And, super strength does like its endurance!
On an electric tanker, run all the toggles you want! when you run low, you just nick the endurance from the mobs. No problem.
Between Invincible, Tough hide, and weave, an invul tanker can get darn close to the main def caps. I wouldn't say its 100% essential to hit all of them, but, the closer you can get the better. You have the option of varous invention origin sets as well to push you nearer as well as your standard powers.
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Def is the best thing for tanks to go for, then for powers like Dullpain its nice to have that perma cos it means a consistent increase in HP. Then its a case of maintaining gauntlet, controlling mobs. I could go for all the recharge in the world and have attacks returning asap so that I can off load the maximum amount of damage in the least amount of time. All those attacks still cost endurance, you can use all the attacks you want but they take from the endurance bar, that bar has to recover. It's cool if you are teamed with a kin or something but I like to team with anyone. More DPS = More EPS, too low EPR to match that EPS means less DPS. On the whole a balance is nice to be where ya want to be. I don't like stopping.|
Originally Posted by SnowTigress
That set-up (4 Kin Combat and 2 Basilisk) would be a big improvement over what he's got there now. The original post has 4 Basilisks, a Crushing Impact Acc/Dmg/Rchg, and a generic Dmg IO in Knockout Blow. Yeah, the recharge bonus from Basilisk is nice, but not worth what you have give up for it to slot it in KOB. With 4 KC and two Basilisk, KOB would do considerably more damage per hit, Maneuvers would no longer be needed to hit the S/L def softcap, and you would still have some hold duration in KOB if that's your thing.
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I roughly need an attack chain of 20s, 5s to recover, attack for 20s. The 5 secs is the time taken to go to and consolidate the next group, so my build can regain endpoints 20% slower than I can use them. I have hastened conserve energy to help get to what is a difficult goal.
The more damage you do in an attack chain the less times you would have to use the attack chain. I prefer the weapon you have to use only once.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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1: Said stupid-spensive IO eats exactly zero endurance. Maneuvers eats .39 end/sec (most of Invuln's toggles eat 2/3 of this). There are far better power picks and uses for the slots than Maneuvers.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm not sure I get the "Don't take Maneuvers on an Invul Tank" notion. People pay 2.5B (ish) for an IO that gives you less Defense than Maneuvers 3-slotted with LOTG.
It's on my Invul Tank and I see no reason whatsoever that I wouldn't keep it. |
2: It's ENTIRELY possible to softcap an Invuln WITHOUT the PVP IO and be more blue-bar friendly doing so.
3: What's bad is that he's essentially relying on his EPP and a FootStomp with NO (as in zero, zip, zilch, nada, one-less-than-uno) EndRed in it for his damage output, rather than primary. He's got roughly 1/4 of all of his slots assigned to his last 4 (most damaging but also highest recharging and most end-hungry) powers. Then he's piling on recharge to get them up as much as possible without any sort of endurance consumption mitigation other than to just stop attacking and huff or eat blues like a starving man eating a bag of skittles.
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I don't know what more to say about it. My Invul/SS Tank with Maneuvers can literally fight continuously and not see the blue bar move at all. Maneuvers could have its cost doubled and it wouldn't matter. If the argument against Maneuvers is "its endurance cost is too high" well, no, I have empirical evidence otherwise against that statement being some universal truth. Is it true for some Inv tanks that haven't built good endurance managment? Sure. Is it true for all Inv tanks? Nope.
Further, I'm not sure how omitting the PVP IO will help endurance, seems like completely unrelated issues to me (per point 2 above)
One point for the OP - 89.6% s/l resists is certainly enough. I will promise you there will never be a scenario where you'll say "I would have survived if I had .4% more s/l resists."
Anyway, none of my comments have been with regards to the OPs build, rather the misguided notion that Maneuvers is something an Invul should absolutely avoid, period.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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So far the only one that has been saying this about the PvP IO in build and Purple in build is you. Every one else said you do not need it. I too have a Inv/SS tank that is close to hard capping res in s/l and sc def of s/l WITH OUT (you ready for this? ) WITHOUT maneuvers and WITHOUT expensive PvP, and no purples in it.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I don't know what more to say about it. My Invul/SS Tank with Maneuvers can literally fight continuously and not see the blue bar move at all. Maneuvers could have its cost doubled and it wouldn't matter. If the argument against Maneuvers is "its endurance cost is too high" well, no, I have empirical evidence otherwise against that statement being some universal truth. Is it true for some Inv tanks that haven't built good endurance managment? Sure. Is it true for all Inv tanks? Nope.
Further, I'm not sure how omitting the PVP IO will help endurance, seems like completely unrelated issues to me (per point 2 above) One point for the OP - 89.6% s/l resists is certainly enough. I will promise you there will never be a scenario where you'll say "I would have survived if I had .4% more s/l resists." Anyway, none of my comments have been with regards to the OPs build, rather the misguided notion that Maneuvers is something an Invul should absolutely avoid, period. |
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No. You have anecdotal evidence based solely upon your build and your opinion as to what "acceptable" endurance use is.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
If the argument against Maneuvers is "its endurance cost is too high" well, no, I have empirical evidence otherwise
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Besides, that's not the argument. The argument against Maneuvers is because it's a needless expense:
- In endurance use
- In a power pick
- In a use of slots
- There are better ways to cap an Invuln tank (that don't even remotely include burning over 2 billion inf on a PVP IO).
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Although I wouldn't put it quite so...bluntly, I do agree with Hyperstrike that Maneuvers isn't needed and isn't the best choice for a Invul tank trying to soft-cap for the reasons he listed. IMO it's a better choice for sets like Fire or Electric that unlike Invul don't have a substantial amount of defense to build on.
The only exception I an think of offhand is if you're trying to do a SO build or a really low-budget IO build for an Invul tank. Maneuvers would give helpful defense boost if you can't or aren't willing to spend the necessary influence on set IOs. But given some of the IOs the OP used in his build, that doesn't seem to be an issue.
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Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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I usually use recharge bonus to cycle my best attacks. Slotting them so they're not strong attacks sort of misses the whole the point.
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Originally Posted by SnowTigress
Yeah, the recharge bonus from Basilisk is nice, but not worth what you have give up for it to slot it in KOB.
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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That's me all over. Why dance around a subject when you can simply rain in several kilotons of ordnance on it? |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Although I wouldn't put it quite so...bluntly
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Seriously though. My problem with Maneuvers in this specific case is that there has been no real effort to reduce endurance consumption (beyond the Alpha) or boost recovery significantly. As such, bumping endurance consumption by nearly 10% while maintaining as large an attack profile as they have, basically screams "carry blues, LOTS of blues".
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I have maneuvers in one of my builds that is active and i am looking at my def when I have it active, and not active and see no deference what so ever. I am usually soloing when I do that though.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
That's me all over. Why dance around a subject when you can simply rain in several kilotons of ordnance on it?
Seriously though. My problem with Maneuvers in this specific case is that there has been no real effort to reduce endurance consumption (beyond the Alpha) or boost recovery significantly. As such, bumping endurance consumption by nearly 10% while maintaining as large an attack profile as they have, basically screams "carry blues, LOTS of blues". |
well personally i would take ageless over the rebirth and here is why. if your tank is properly built with io sets you dont need another heal ever. dull pain will work just fine. no matter what you do with invuln/ss it at times is gonna suck up endurance especially with hasten, hasten drops you lose endurace, rage drops you lose endurance. i run all my invuln toggles, tough and weave, combat jumping and maneuvers all the time. i never take damage but when hasten and rage drops i do take a endurance drop. when i use the pyronic judgement power, fireball, footstomp and ko blow one after the other endurance can get a little low, i pop ageless and dont have to worry about endurance for the next two minutes. compare that to rebirth, every two minutes i can get a heal with some damn good regen, but the thing is, that litte green bar i have that indicates health, rarely even moves unless im fighting an av, or doing a trial, and even then i can pop a green inspiration or dull pain and recover that plus dull pain maxes me out in hit point anyway and that many hit points is gonna be hard to chew through. basically i feel if i have to pop rebirth then i will probably die anyway so no point in having it. max out your defenses, max out your resists, and you dont need rebirth imo. ageless was a no brainer for me. ymmv but that is my experience with my invuln/ss tank that i have tried many many builds for, but the one i got right now works the best for me.
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You have to look at it when Barrier doesn't have you pegged at hard-cap. |
Originally Posted by LSK
I have maneuvers in one of my builds that is active and i am looking at my def when I have it active, and not active and see no deference what so ever. I am usually soloing when I do that though.
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That dose not have barrier
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You have to look at it when Barrier doesn't have you pegged at hard-cap.
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Okay, I have a Invuln/SS tanker approaching level 40. Right now endurance can sometimes be a problem, especially if I am going all out.
I wanted to make this guy invuln/ss/fire while running Cardiac in the alpha slot. My current end usage with max cardiac will be .96/s and my recovery rate will be 2.98/s. I'm curious if someone with more experience knows if I am going to end up with huge endurance problems. I don't mind keeping blues on hand if it means Fireball over Energy APP, but I don't want to have all blues and be chugging them like an addict, either.
Additionally, would going Ageless Core for the destiny power to solve any end issues be a stupid choice given the Rebirth Radial is much better for survivability.
If anyone has some experience with this I'd appreciate the help.
The build in question: