I love both, have built both many times. I have a Fire/wp brute, and am currently rebuilding him, i took pyre mastery for more aoe/ranged attack/hold.
Id suggest WP since its able to handle that kind of endurance drain. Invul might be more survivable but your gonna be limited to only FM attacks and be able to sustain end. Unless u took ageless +recovery, but i took barrier to get that last 5% def to my s/l.
I was able to hit 40%s/l 35% e/ne 34% f/c 29 melee(w/o barrier) and 150% rech, perma hasten as well. 2607 hp with 130 hp/sec max regen. Its an expensive build but gonna be worth it.
I think you have more room for patron powers with WP, so id suggest Fire/WP. Fire Sword Circle+Fire Ball+Reactive+Barrier=Winning
Fire/wp since /wp can cover the higher end cost of Fire.
Fire/invul since /invul can be a top end armor set and covers Fire's lack of mitigation.
Dark/wp for even more end recovery and healing.
Dark/inv to help patch up any issues /invul might have and adds end recovery
I don't look at end recovery as much of a concern once you factor in IOs and going Incarnate, so I would look more at /invul as being the ideal pick.
The differences are Invul has a huge psi hole. Which you see alot of at the end game. Willpower does not. Willpower has a harder time taking the initial alpha and huge spike damage but Invul does not. Invul has a heal. Willpower does not. Willpower has massive amounts of regen. Invul does not.
Honestly these sets are one in the same to me, all of their weakness's can be covered up with incarnates except Invul's psi hole.
I've never liked the expression "huge psi hole". Makes it sound like a guaranteed death sentence.
A better way to say it would be that psi oppenents offer more challenges to an invulnerable-based build.
A problem is still a problem reguardless of the magnitude. Saying it has a huge psi hole, then getting taking down quickly by seers is easier on the ego, than saying it's a "challenge" and having the same result. The term Huge psi hole being the defining factor on why someone doesnt pick Invul. is subjective. I rather have the audience be overprepared and aware than underprepared and naive.
They are both tough and awesome.
And you can fill that psionic hole to a large degree on an Invulnerability toon. There are 5 powers you can fill with Impervium Armors which grant 1.88 psi defense with just 3 enhancements. And with enough cash you can get 5% psi defense from Apocalypse and 5% psi defense from Soulbound Allegiance (if you get a pet). Add in pool power defenses and you can get your psi defense above 30%. May not be worth it - but it is possible.
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I wouldn't search after psi defense bonuses. I'd prioitize S/L/F/C/E/N. Most of your sets that boost your typed defense also give positional defense. Once my typed defenses were soft capped, I ended up with ~30% to melee, ranged, and aoe. That and about 3000 hit points goes a long way toward covering your psi hole.|
Originally Posted by MallardDuck
And you can fill that psionic hole to a large degree on an Invulnerability toon. There are 5 powers you can fill with Impervium Armors which grant 1.88 psi defense with just 3 enhancements. And with enough cash you can get 5% psi defense from Apocalypse and 5% psi defense from Soulbound Allegiance (if you get a pet). Add in pool power defenses and you can get your psi defense above 30%. May not be worth it - but it is possible.
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The only time psi seems to bother me is on the Incarnate trials when a group of +3 seers all pop drain psyche on me at the same time, but that might be the -regen as much as the psi dmg.
Agree 100% with MajorTractor. Psi Defense isn't something to reach for. But did want to point out that the psi hole can be addressed on an Invulnerability toon.
I actually find Willpower's terror protection and the lack of terror protection with Invulnerability to be a more noticeable issue in common play. Longbow bosses can really make life hard for Invulnerability toons. That seems a bigger plus for Willpower to me than Psi protection. (And you're probably not going to take Clarion just for terror protection.)
And going Dark is good since it indirectly helps cover up the psy hole. All sets have pros and cons. You just have to figure out if you are ok with the con.
I love both sets.Both sets will perform well. Lack of Psi is a very minor issue with Inv that can be easily managed.
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Bingo!|
Originally Posted by MallardDuck
Agree 100% with MajorTractor. Psi Defense isn't something to reach for. But did want to point out that the psi hole can be addressed on an Invulnerability toon.
I actually find Willpower's terror protection and the lack of terror protection with Invulnerability to be a more noticeable issue in common play. Longbow bosses can really make life hard for Invulnerability toons. That seems a bigger plus for Willpower to me than Psi protection. (And you're probably not going to take Clarion just for terror protection.) |
Terrorize and confuse are larger issues than psi, in practical play.
The leadership pool is your friend.
Inv is very tough, it's nice.
I've got to be honest; (though my viewpoint is looking more toward heavy IO use so YMMV) outside of one specific concept, I think I've picked Willpower over Invuln everytime since WP was released.
The short simplistic answer; Both sets are tough and awesome, but one is tough and awesome while covering the psi & terror hole and providing more end.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in Invuln's favor though, is that it provides some res to def debuffs, along with slow & end drain res, which is kind of nice.
or make both and try it out for yourself, everyone plays differently so everyones opinion is gonna be different...Both are great for end game material, both have strengths and weaknesses. Usually i take the energy mastery with invul and as i explained in earlier post, you can take the pyre mastery for another aoe and not completely kill your blue bar with a WP. Barrier seems like the best choice for a non farming brute so i do consider endurance even after completely IO'd because you wont have ageless, i hate having to use blues all the time or rely on them...thats my 2 cents
[Vanguard Psionic Shield] is an easy to get temp power that can help you with psi damage as well as the [Elusive Mind] Accolade.
My problem with WP is the low resistance and defense numbers. You really have to work a lot harder to get Soft Capped S/L/E/N. Invuln gets [Invincibility] which can really increase your defenses when surrounded, +regen, not so much. The more people around you giving you that extra 75-100% regen will be doing more damage in the process anyhow. The -To Hit is resistable so it's not the same as +defense.
Invulnerability
-- Close to capped Smashing and Lethal resistance
-- End drain resistance
-- Slow resistance
-- Defense debuff resistance
-- Higher base defenses
-- Higher HP when Dull Pain is active
-- Easier to soft cap all 3 typed groups
-- +To Hit with Invincibility
-- Mag 4 taunt Aggro Aura
-- The more mobs around, the higher your defenses, the less chance of taking damage
Will Power
-- Extra endurance recovery
-- Higher Regen
-- +Perception Power
-- Mag 3 taunt aggro aura
-- -To Hit aggro aura
-- Constant +HP
-- Higher psi res and defense
-- Self Res
-- +Regen with extra mobs in Melee
-- Crashless tier 9
Tried to give just positive comparisons for both, even though I'm more biased to Invuln. Make your own decision.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Originally Posted by _Pine_
[Vanguard Psionic Shield] is an easy to get temp power that can help you with psi damage as well as the [Elusive Mind] Accolade.
My problem with WP is the low resistance and defense numbers. You really have to work a lot harder to get Soft Capped S/L/E/N. Invuln gets [Invincibility] which can really increase your defenses when surrounded, +regen, not so much. The more people around you giving you that extra 75-100% regen will be doing more damage in the process anyhow. The -To Hit is resistable so it's not the same as +defense. Invulnerability -- Close to capped Smashing and Lethal resistance -- End drain resistance -- Slow resistance -- Defense debuff resistance -- Higher base defenses -- Higher HP when Dull Pain is active -- Easier to soft cap all 3 typed groups -- +To Hit with Invincibility -- Mag 4 taunt Aggro Aura -- The more mobs around, the higher your defenses, the less chance of taking damage Will Power -- Extra endurance recovery -- Higher Regen -- +Perception Power -- Mag 3 taunt aggro aura -- -To Hit aggro aura -- Constant +HP -- Higher psi res and defense -- Self Res -- +Regen with extra mobs in Melee -- Crashless tier 9 Tried to give just positive comparisons for both, even though I'm more biased to Invuln. Make your own decision. |
That's a pretty fair breakdown, IMO.
I decide by primary.
SS, WM, SM - these are all fairly End intense primaries and my ultimate goal with any Brute is an absolutely relentless offense.
I find with the heavier End primaries, even with cardiac, WP makes for a nice pairing. They also tend to have a fair bit of AoEs, which are a great way to generate AoE threat to shore up WPs weak taunt aura.
On top of this, the added recovery allows for easier integration of Maneuvers (which is also convenient to get a 5th LoTG 7.5 into the build) as well as Darkest Night if you go that route.
WP also wants Barrier, where as Invuln wants Rebirth.
With T4 Barrier's 5% DEF/RES boost (back end of the buff) and a (pretty extreme) IO build as well as SoW running - My WP Brute sits 89% SM/L Res.
I think they are very well matched against each other and they both have several pros and cons vs. each other. Choose which one seems to fit your playstyle, primary and epic/patron choices better.
Noob question for brute experts... I like to build a DM or Fire brute but I'm torn between willpower and invulnerability. Both secondaries can be softcapped for most damage types (except psi). With WP you wouldn't have to worry about end and you'll have decent regeneration and with INV you'll have great resistance and nice debuff resists. So what other differences are there between the two before I decide to pair them with a primary?