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And yet you want us to believe that while you can ignore the villain content by street sweeping and running AE missions to keep your villains pure, but you can't ignore the morality missions in game text. Or that you can't ignore a Praetorian origin after you've chosen a heroic alignment. Hypocrisy gotta love it.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Also, my praetorians are just fine, but hey are not earth heroes. They are irrelevant to my point. I could make a villain>hero, or a praetorian>hero, but both involve ignoring in game text and pretending the past never happened.
If you want to tell me that Im wrong that is fine, but you should at least read what Im saying first. |
I am aware of how the devs designed the alignment system guys. I have been using it to bypass the limited AT selections on each side for a while now. I think what you are all not taking into account is that the devs are CHANGING this by proliferating all of the ATs. We no longer have to work our characters to the other side, we can start them there.
This is where the respec analogy comes in. The devs dont have to give us respecs when they change powers, they could just tell us to suck it up and do a respec trial or re-roll the character. But they dont. Why? Because they changed something that we picked in the past. Logically a free alignment change fits this pattern. Its not necessary in any way, but it makes new options available to old characters with minimal hassle.
Back to the original point of the thread: a free alignment change would be awesome. If someone has an original opinion why changing a characters alignment once would not be awesome, I would love to hear it. The game is changing, it is not unreasonable to expect the devs stance on a related issue has changed also.
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Didnt say I cant or wont, Ive done it many times. I dont care for praetoria and it is irrelevant to my OP.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And yet you want us to believe that while you can ignore the villain content by street sweeping and running AE missions to keep your villains pure, but you can't ignore the morality missions in game text. Or that you can't ignore a Praetorian origin after you've chosen a heroic alignment. Hypocrisy gotta love it.
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O-mega Man always has my back no matter how badly Im outnumbered, even when he thinks I shouldn't have started it in the first place. |
Originally Posted by O_MegaMan
No, he didn't. He stated that while taking a Villain to Hero via the alignment system can't be done in less than 4 days, re-rolling that character, and leveling them back up to Level 20 or so can be done in a matter of hours. The assertion there was simply that a one-time use alignment token would be more convenient than those two options. At no point in time did the OP say anything that could possibly be misconstrued as saying that a particular faction levels more quickly than another.
How so? The argument against Alignment Change Tokens, so far from what I've gathered, is simply that the Dev's want us to utilize the Alignment system as it's been designed, and that awarding quick change tokens will circumvent that process. However, deleting, and re-rolling a character with a different alignment, and achieving a similar level in less time than it would take to play through the alignment system as designed sounds like a circumvention to me. Sure, it's not the same character from a computer data standpoint, but if said character has the same name, powers, and costume, then for all intents and purposes, you've just changed alignments in less than the designed time period. If such a circumvention is totally acceptable now, then what problems do an Alignment Change Token present? |
Thats what being a hero is all about, not putting tedious obstacles in an RPG. lol and Im not even a real role player. I wonder what the hardcore RPs think about this.
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lol I think you are on to something here
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Maybe they should throw an alignment change token in as a bonus with a certain size transaction once the a la carte pricing for optional stuff takes effect. I mean, you always get a free alignment if you buy all four tires, right? <rimshot!>
--CP |
So once I21 hits the servers you can just reroll and hit whatever level you were if it's that much faster.
Problem solved.
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And this is where your analogy fails. The devs give out freespecs when they make changes to the way a power functions. Nothing changes when you switch alignments. A heroic Mastermind plays no differently than a villainous Mastermind. The only difference is what content you have access to.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
This is where the respec analogy comes in. The devs dont have to give us respecs when they change powers, they could just tell us to suck it up and do a respec trial or re-roll the character. But they dont. Why? Because they changed something that we picked in the past. Logically a free alignment change fits this pattern. Its not necessary in any way, but it makes new options available to old characters with minimal hassle.
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No it isn't. You have repeatedly proclaimed that you were forced to make villains when it isn't true. Ever since side switching was introduced we have had the option of starting any archetype at level 1 in Praetoria and playing them as a hero or villain as we saw fit.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Didnt say I cant or wont, Ive done it many times. I dont care for praetoria and it is irrelevant to my OP.
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RPers like myself don't care one way or another because we've been role playing heroic villains and villainous heroes from day one. Role playing is about how you act in character with other players not about the limits you put on your own imagination.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
O-mega Man always has my back no matter how badly Im outnumbered, even when he thinks I shouldn't have started it in the first place.
Thats what being a hero is all about, not putting tedious obstacles in an RPG. lol and Im not even a real role player. I wonder what the hardcore RPs think about this. |
If I want to RP that my character is a hyper-intelligent shade of blue from the Lundmarks Nebula then that is what he is and the fact that the only Alien AT's available to play are WS/PB's isn't going to stop me.
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But not on a side that fit a concept. That's my point. You've already compromised by choosing to make a hero in the Rogue Isles. Anything beyond that you can see as the consequences of that compromise.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
I chose my powers to fit a concept, it is just unfortunate that I chose them before i21.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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First of all, the respec analogy does work. If they change the way powers work, you get a respec. If you change the way alignments work, you get an Alignment change token. The logic is sound.
Secondly, let's recap - the things in the game about our character that we can change on a whim, in a matter of minutes, or even seconds:
* Gender
* Face
* Body Size
* Enhancements
* Power choices
* Any and all costume pieces
* Name
* Server location
* Teams
* Supergroups
But Alignments? Oh the humanity! Never!, lest the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride o'er the horizon and lay waste to all the eye can see!
Seriously though, I've yet to hear a compelling argument against this. "The Dev's said so" is not a valid argument. That's like asking "Why does it rain?" and getting the answer "Because God said so." It's a cop out. When a redname comes on and says,
"You know what O-Mega Man, it's not going to happen because we're all powerful and immovable in our position. We shan't be swayed by any arguments, regardless of how persuasive, because we are not humans with the ability to 'change our minds;' we are deities with laser focus and are incapable of moving from our original position due to cosmic rules outside of our sphere of influence."
then I'll quietly murmur, "Oh, that is unfortunate." and wander away.
Until then, I implore the community at large to give me an argument against Alignment Change Tokens other than "The Dev's said so" (God?) or "Use the alignment system as designed." (freespecs are unnecessary as the Respec Trial still exists.)
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... except, of course, that they aren't changing the way alignments work.|
Originally Posted by O_MegaMan
First of all, the respec analogy does work. If they change the way powers work, you get a respec. If you change the way alignments work, you get an Alignment change token. The logic is sound.
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So, no, the analogy doesn't work.
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Secondly, let's recap - the things in the game about our character that we can change on a whim, in a matter of minutes, or even seconds: * Gender |
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* Face * Body Size |
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| * Enhancements |
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| * Power choices |
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| * Any and all costume pieces |
Color 1, Top
Color 2, Top
Top type
Top pattern
Color 1, Chest emblem
Color 2, Chest Emblem
Chest emblem itself
Gloves
Gloves Color 1
Gloves Color 2
Gloves Pattern...
... we can fluff that up as much as you want. It still doesn't add to your argument.
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| * Name |
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| * Server location |
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| * Teams |
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| * Supergroups |
And none of the above is in the least bit *supportive* of the OP's request. Many of them cost time or money. And alignment changes now? Right in line with that... they cost time. And not a lot of it.
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They are changing alignments insomuch as that you can now create a "Villain" archetype in Paragon City, and a "Hero" archetype in the Rogue Isles. Things you couldn't previously do, that you can do now. Something changed. It's very obviously not the same as it was.| ... except, of course, that they aren't changing the way alignments work. |
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| And alignment changes now? Right in line with that... they cost time. |
The time cost of the Alignment system is very much NOT in line with the other systems, at least not in my experience. I have never performed a respec or costume change that took me four days (Monday morning to Thursday evening) I highly doubt that is the intended time for a respec, and I doubt I'm significantly better at it than anyone.
If a respec takes 1 hour and an Alignment takes 96 hours, then an alignment switch takes 96 times longer than a respec. (I'm not great at math, but I'm feeling pretty confident right now.)
If a costume change takes 15 minutes then an Alignment takes 384 times longer. (Feeling less confident about that math, and if someone wants to correct me, I'd welcome it, but the point still stands the the time is significantly longer.)
I really wish people would stop explaining to me the way the game mechanics work (especially when the "explanations" are skewed and irrelevant to the matter at hand.) I'm well versed in the game operations. What I am not well versed in is why an alignment token is not a fantastic idea.
So you said, and I'm paraphrasing here, the fact that we can quickly and easily change EVERYTHING ELSE in the game is inconsequential, and that all of the things we have shortcuts for don't apply to the alignment system. Didn't give me a reason though.
So far, people have addressed Praetoria, the AE, the fact that respecs take time (like everything else anyone does ever and always), but not one single person has given me a reason why alignment tokens are a bad idea.
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And you can already change alignment, a process that - again - the devs have stated they want to be a process. |
Originally Posted by O_MegaMan
They are changing alignments insomuch as that you can now create a "Villain" archetype in Paragon City, and a "Hero" archetype in the Rogue Isles. Things you couldn't previously do, that you can do now. Something changed. It's very obviously not the same as it was.
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| The fact that you must pay money or influence for things such as costume changes or server transfer tokens is inconsequential; |
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| Besides, they don't cost influence and money all the time. Server transfers are given for free, |
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respecs are given out for free,]/quote]
Again, don't ignore the REASON they're given out.
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| I can't count the number of free tailor vouchers I have. |
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| The time cost of the Alignment system is very much NOT in line with the other systems, |
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| I have never performed a respec or costume change that took me four days |
And again, you're ignoring the other costs and risks (including failure) of a respec.
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| I really wish people would stop explaining to me the way the game mechanics work (especially when the "explanations" are skewed and irrelevant to the matter at hand.) |
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From a Villain:| You can change alignment in less than 24 hours by running 11 missions, giving you access to ALL COH and COV content. You can go over fully in less than 48. |
Five missions, wait 20 hours. Halfway to Rogue. Total time 20 hours.
Five more missions + alignment = Rogue. Total time, slightly more than 20 hours.
Wait 20 hours, do five more missions. Halfway to Hero. Total time, 40 hours.
Wait another 20 hours, do five more missions + alignment = Hero. Total time, slightly more than 60 hours.
But really, that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with my question.
What is WRONG with an Alignment change token?
The Dev's originally intended for respecs to be earned via the Repec Trial. That is still a viable way to access a respec, even if massive-Cottage-Rule-breaking changes are made to powers. No reason for a freespec. We should stop having those.
The Dev's orginially intended for costume changes to cost influence. Changes to costume parts have never impacted my playstyle, and there are numerous ways to earn the needed influence to purchase a tailor change. There is no reason for a free tailor token. We should stop having those.
The Dev's originally intended for the alignment system to....oh wait. We've beat that dead horse enough.
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They have made the alignment change unnecessary. Absolutely 100% unnecessary for getting the AT you want on the alignment you want. Unless your character has already been created, then you have to go through a process that new characters don't.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And you can already change alignment, a process that - again - the devs have stated they want to be a process.
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This is completely parallel with why they give respecs for power changes. New characters dont get the respec because the fundamental game change is already in place, old characters do get a respec because a new choice is available that was not available before. The alignment respec follows logically. The game has changed, I no longer have to start my brutes red/gold side, and just like I no longer have to waste power slots on stamina I shouldn't have to spend time on something that new characters get for free. Of course the devs could say no, but there is no logical reason not to offer it other than if they just dont feel like it.
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No they haven't. Alignment changes were added for role playing purposes. This is after all a role playing game. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
They have made the alignment change unnecessary.
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CoH was created so people could role play super heroes.
CoV was created so people could role play super villains.
Going Rogue was created so people could role play the moral dilemma between good and evil.
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| This is completely parallel with why they give respecs for power changes. |
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| New characters dont get the respec because the fundamental game change is already in place |
The devs give them out to everyone because they are such nice people. That doesn't mean we are entitled to them, or anything else for free.
The devs give out free tokens as a courtesy when the changes they make take the choice out of the players hands.
When they change a power they give out freespecs.
When they merged the server lists they gave out Global Name change tokens.
When a GM generics a character's name or costume they give out a name change or costume token.
When a player changes servers and loses a name they give out a name change token.
The difference with alignments is that you knew full well when you created the character what your choices were for the time being. You could
a. Make a straight villain and change alignments at level 20. Or
b. Make a Praetorian and make a heroic villain AT from level 1.
Everyone knew when GR was launched that everything would eventually be merged and we'd be able to make whatever we wanted regardless of faction. We even predicted that the merge would start a year after GR went live, because that's exactly how long it took them to merge CoH and CoV into one game.
Yeah the first year that CoV was launched CoH and CoV were separate purchases and you couldn't play the both sides without buying both games.
Now if the devs came out and told people that they were separating the factions into stand alone games and any characters that were caught between factions (vigilante or Rogue) were going to be forced to one side or the other, then there would be a valid argument for being given alignment change tokens. Why? Because that's a scenario where players would actually have an alignment forced upon them.
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There's merit in that viewpoint, although you may want to consider that, on the flip side, existing characters may have badges and other evidence of progress that a new character wouldn't be able to get. Putting in some time to run an alignment change through the system could be taken as a fair payment for being able to keep, say, the first anniversary badge. I'm just puttin' it out there.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
They have made the alignment change unnecessary. Absolutely 100% unnecessary for getting the AT you want on the alignment you want. Unless your character has already been created, then you have to go through a process that new characters don't.
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I'm not fond of the arbitrary time sinks they built into the process either, doubly so because they appear to be partially there to prevent people from farming alignment merits - something that's a) not actually connected to changing a character's alignment and b) not of any interest to me. It makes me grumpy when my time is wasted by a mechanism put in place to prevent people who aren't me from abusing something I wasn't planning to abuse. But I do agree that we ought to make some effort.
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Which was hilarious, in the same way that someone claiming that ice and soda are two separate menu items would be hilarious.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah the first year that CoV was launched CoH and CoV were separate purchases and you couldn't play the both sides without buying both games.
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I agree. Even tho our wonderful generous devs had the best intentions when they decided to give them out, it set a bad precedent and is a perfect example of no good deed going unpunished. As soon they did it the immature whiners with entitlement issues started making idiotic demands and about the unfairness that their petty demands are being ignored. And it's been going on nonstop for years.|
Originally Posted by O_MegaMan
No reason for a freespec. We should stop having those.
There is no reason for a free tailor token. We should stop having those. |
Some examples
It's not fair that they can't pull every enhancement off of a respec.
It's not fair that they can't have vehicles.
It's not fair that they force PvP into specific zones.
It's not fair that they can't make ripoffs of their favorite heroes/villains.
It's not fair that they have to participate in PvP if they want to get Shivans or Nukes.
It's not fair that things are so expensive at the market.
It's not fair that they can't abuse AE exploits.
It's not fair that someone else got the name they wanted first.
On and on it never stops.
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Yeah and as soon as NCSoft got in control they started working on putting an end to it. Same as they did here. It's been a long ongoing process that we all knew was going to eventually happen.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Which was hilarious, in the same way that someone claiming that ice and soda are two separate menu items would be hilarious.
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Alrighty! New approach time.
Here's the deal: I love the alignment system. I think it was a phenomenal addition to the game, and I agree with gating the alignment system as is currently in place. Story has always been the biggest draw to this game for me, and I like that changing alignments is progressive and let's you feel as though you've actually accomplished something.
I also don't want Alignment Change Tokens. Not for any particular reason, but simply because I personally have no use for them, wouldn't use them anyway, and find them unnecessary.
However, I can understand someone, just barely getting their "Heroic" Corruptor up to Level 20 in the Rogue Isles, and wanting to use that Token to pop over to Hero-side without running the alignment missions, just as I enjoy popping a freespec to avoid having to run the Respec Trials.
My question is, as it has always been: what makes alignment change tokens so fundamentally distasteful? What is wrong with them, and what is with people's undying opposition to them?
TLDR:
WHY IS HAVING AN ALIGNMENT CHANGE TOKEN A BAD THING?
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Because the devs have flat out told us they don't want players to instantly change alignments.|
Originally Posted by O_MegaMan
My question is, as it has always been: what makes alignment change tokens so fundamentally distasteful? What is wrong with them, and what is with people's undying opposition to them?
TLDR: WHY IS HAVING AN ALIGNMENT CHANGE TOKEN A BAD THING? |
Seriously how hard is this to understand? We don't have to like it, but that's the decision they have made. Their game, their rules.
Here's a few similar examples
The devs reduced the amount of salvage that can be stored in SG salvage bins from 2500 to 30. Why? because they don't want us storing larger amounts in them.
The devs only allow us to pull 10 enhancements off of a build during a respec. Why? Because they feel 10 was being generous.
The devs decided that we can't change powersets once they are selected. Why? Because they don't want us changing powersets.
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No, they haven't. Not by a long shot. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
They have made the alignment change unnecessary.
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I can decide to go from Hero to Vigilante to Villain to Rogue if I want. I can keep switching as I decide it fits the character - or my desires at that particular time.
The alignment change is not necessary.
This is solely "I want NAO." The mechanisms are in place, and in all the time you've spent complaining about it, you could be up to 20 and on your way on your lowbies. And you could be the alignment you want to be LONG before I21 shows up.
If there's someone you want on a side that's not "native" for that side, you have three choices:
1. Praetoria
2. Wait. Learn some patience.
3. Roll on their native side and play them ANYWAY, doing the switch - which is doable in a *fraction* of the time I21 will take to arrive - when you're able.
Frankly, it smacks more of laziness. You started posting in this 7/19 - three days ago (We'll give it 2 1/2 given time zone for me.) You could have been halfway through with your alignment change - or, if it's a praetorian, out of (or nearly out of) Praetoria and on the side you want to be on.
Have you done so? If not, there's exactly one person to blame.
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| This is completely parallel with why they give respecs for power changes. New characters dont get the respec because the fundamental game change is already in place, old characters do get a respec because a new choice is available that was not available before. |
Also, my praetorians are just fine, but hey are not earth heroes. They are irrelevant to my point. I could make a villain>hero, or a praetorian>hero, but both involve ignoring in game text and pretending the past never happened.
Leveling in this game is ridiculously easy solo and if you want to team with others to do it faster it's very easy to find willing people to help you out with only the tiniest amount of effort.
If you want to tell me that Im wrong that is fine, but you should at least read what Im saying first.