Ok, video 2 is up now. This is the same Ice/Rad's antics versus Carnies. The mission is set to +0x8, bosses off. This is to show the play style in regular solo missions and the strategy for the Arctic Air + Frostbite on a high recharge/high defense Ice character with good defenses and mezz protection. Again, mainly for demonstration purposes of what to expect out of such a build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHpUQXhLsLg
My long favorite character in the game has been an Ice/Storm controller, whom I've been playing for some 7 years now. He's currently tricked out to the gills and can do some impressive things in large spawn battles, but I never seriously considered farming with him. This gives me some want to give it a whirl.
That said, I've long avoided AE and its "farm" missions for fear of the dev banhammer crushing down. I don't want my characters, especially this one, somehow nerfed or deleted due to running these missions. My paranoia there has been that these missions usually involve exploits or cheating on some level, as they have in the past.
So, and this may be a question no one can answer, but how "safe" are these missions considered in that regard?
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Originally Posted by flipside
My long favorite character in the game has been an Ice/Storm controller, whom I've been playing for some 7 years now. He's currently tricked out to the gills and can do some impressive things in large spawn battles, but I never seriously considered farming with him. This gives me some want to give it a whirl.
That said, I've long avoided AE and its "farm" missions for fear of the dev banhammer crushing down. I don't want my characters, especially this one, somehow nerfed or deleted due to running these missions. My paranoia there has been that these missions usually involve exploits or cheating on some level, as they have in the past. So, and this may be a question no one can answer, but how "safe" are these missions considered in that regard? |
That's a good question. I'm not a huge farmer. I have done it from time to time. On the Brute forums, talking about this particular type of mission goes on a lot. I'm one of the few (I think) players to actually post a video of it. If the mission is an exploit, at least it makes the developers aware. There were some statements made about not farming the AE quite some time ago, but nothing has been said about it since. If you are worried about someone from development banning you for playing this kind of mission, I'd say there is nothing to be concerned about.
To my knowledge, there is nothing blatantly exploitative about this particular type of mission. Many characters placed in this particular environment don't do all that well, because of all the damage that comes raining down on you very quickly. Ice Control is an exception because its aura power keeps the enemy in check. I suspect Earth Control might do well because of Volcanic Gasses as well. Anyway, the mission doesn't involve anything particularly cheat-y other than having a lot of enemies who are fairly easy to kill aggro you all at once. The mission itself is actually created for Fire Armor Brutes; I ran it with a character not optimized to that damage type.
Anyway, even if you decide not to use the ambush style missions, its still easy and possible to create or find a story arcish thing (AE or otherwise) with lots of enemies vulnerable to Confusion. I sometimes do completly random AE missions at +0x8 with bosses off and its more or less just as easy.
We should also note that even though Ice Controllers can do decent-ish farming on low settings, they are still not completely ideal farmers. Brutes pretty much take the cake on that. However, just because you're an Ice troller doesn't mean you need to be subsidized by other toons, either.
I don't farm so I'll withhold judgement on the fire farm video. But I wonder if I'm supposed to be impressed by an IO'ed controller soloing -1 Carnies without bosses. In my experience, Lt. and below generally do not threaten characters, and the real danger (especially for squishies) are the bosses you can't easily mez or kill.
My ice/storm still isnt going to take arctic air. I simply dont enjoy it.
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
I can't tell you how many Ice Controllers over the years complain to me about how Ice Control is underpowered and weak.
Well I am gonna send them here and have them watch those videos and tell them how you seem to do just fine. :P
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I don't farm so I'll withhold judgement on the fire farm video. But I wonder if I'm supposed to be impressed by an IO'ed controller soloing -1 Carnies without bosses. In my experience, Lt. and below generally do not threaten characters, and the real danger (especially for squishies) are the bosses you can't easily mez or kill.
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Your lack of impression is noted. Thanks for the uh... comments.
I wasn't trying to show off. I was demoing how to make money as an Ice Controller. I'm glad you were available to put me in my place. Hats off to you.
PS it is absolutely standard practice for Controllers to fight with bosses off if you increase the enemy count to x8. A few don't. Most do. It depends on what you can mow through faster. Usually the issue is they just take too long to die. Not worth the time investment unless you are a /Kin or perhaps a Fire/Rad. Definitely not on an Ice Controller due to its low-ish base damage.
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Thank you for responding to that. I will trust the opinion of someone who is posting videos of such feats. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That's a good question. I'm not a huge farmer. I have done it from time to time. On the Brute forums, talking about this particular type of mission goes on a lot. I'm one of the few (I think) players to actually post a video of it. If the mission is an exploit, at least it makes the developers aware. There were some statements made about not farming the AE quite some time ago, but nothing has been said about it since. If you are worried about someone from development banning you for playing this kind of mission, I'd say there is nothing to be concerned about.
To my knowledge, there is nothing blatantly exploitative about this particular type of mission. Many characters placed in this particular environment don't do all that well, because of all the damage that comes raining down on you very quickly. Ice Control is an exception because its aura power keeps the enemy in check. I suspect Earth Control might do well because of Volcanic Gasses as well. Anyway, the mission doesn't involve anything particularly cheat-y other than having a lot of enemies who are fairly easy to kill aggro you all at once. The mission itself is actually created for Fire Armor Brutes; I ran it with a character not optimized to that damage type. |
I have been watching the threads in the Brute forums and they astound me, and give me a chuckle. One of these "fire farm" AE missions is a Hall of Fame mission currently in AE.Quote:
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
My ice/storm still isnt going to take arctic air. I simply dont enjoy it.
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Originally Posted by Deathbeforedisco
I can't tell you how many Ice Controllers over the years complain to me about how Ice Control is underpowered and weak.
Well I am gonna send them here and have them watch those videos and tell them how you seem to do just fine. :P |
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Originally Posted by flipside
Even tweaked to the gills, my Ice/Storm/Ice controller is still underpowered compared to some other controller powersets and combos. To me alone, I feel very powerful when playing this character, and is why I've played them for the majority of 7 years.
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I pretty much feel the same way. The set is not perfect. It has a lot of issues. Some of it can be worked around with high defense and mezz protection.
Ice Control however does play pretty much unlike any powerset/class in a video game anywhere though, which is why I like it. And it is very possible to survive and make money with it solo. I remember fighting at -1x1 for about 2 years before I started figuring out the tricks, although the biggest boost came from Incarnate abilities that helped cover endurance deficits and stunt slotting in Arctic Air. Any [EDIT: high level] Ice Controller with the Psi APP and some defense (I'd say around ~30%) should be able to solo at x8 with relative ease.
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Mez protection is rough, but thanks to the no-toggle-drop change it isn't as rough as it used to be (AA still drops, but thems the breaks). Incarnate Clarion has been a great boon to me in this area.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I pretty much feel the same way. The set is not perfect. It has a lot of issues. Some of it can be worked around with high defense and mezz protection.
Ice Control however does play pretty much unlike any powerset/class in a video game anywhere though, which is why I like it. And it is very possible to survive and make money with it solo. I remember fighting at -1x1 for about 2 years before I started figuring out the tricks, although the biggest boost came from Incarnate abilities that helped cover endurance deficits and stunt slotting in Arctic Air. Any [EDIT: high level] Ice Controller with the Psi APP and some defense (I'd say around ~30%) should be able to solo at x8 with relative ease. |
I have to admit the Psi APP is superior to Ice in terms of damage and utility, but I chose Ice for thematic reasons. But, with some ample recharge and now the Reactive Incarnate power at least Ice Storm is up often and puts out respectable damage.
Ok, I need to try out one of these missions tonight. I'm jazzed to see how well my character will perform.
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Originally Posted by flipside
Mez protection is rough, but thanks to the no-toggle-drop change it isn't as rough as it used to be (AA still drops, but thems the breaks). Incarnate Clarion has been a great boon to me in this area.
I have to admit the Psi APP is superior to Ice in terms of damage and utility, but I chose Ice for thematic reasons. But, with some ample recharge and now the Reactive Incarnate power at least Ice Storm is up often and puts out respectable damage. Ok, I need to try out one of these missions tonight. I'm jazzed to see how well my character will perform. |
For the farm style missions you will theoretically do much better than me. Storm brings lots of extra damage, and the Ice APP is better for damage. My character didn't actually even have damage slotted in Frostbite when he did this. He is basically a team support toon who I occasionally solo with, and was never intended to be a farmer or heavy soloer.
There is no mezz in the farms, so you can switch to a different Destiny if you have it. For regular missions, the mezz counts for a lot more.
FYI if you are not soft capped, bring some purples into the mission at the start. Watch your defenses and eat more if they drop below what's acceptable. As you play, eat every red, yellow, or orange that drops, and every light purple as well just to keep the tray clear for more drops. You may also play around with powers like Hurricane to see if you can trap enemies against walls; I have a Blaster with Bonfire who was able to greatly increase his survivability this way.
That's impressive! I love how people claim a set is underpowered when they don't take half the powers in that set or use them properly. Any vids for, say, Grav/FF planned? =P
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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I do not consider Ice Control underpowered, even without AA. So I am going to assume you dont mean me. |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
That's impressive! I love how people claim a set is underpowered when they don't take half the powers in that set or use them properly. Any vids for, say, Grav/FF planned? =P
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Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Would you be willing to share which AE mission you ran? I'm having trouble reading the mission text in the video capture to try and find it.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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I've heard it in other places. It "underperforms" because it essentially doesn't farm like plant or fire and doesn't handle AVs like perma-PA Illu. It is distinctly un-distinctive, which somehow makes it bad even though it has advantages over some of the other sets.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I do not consider Ice Control underpowered, even without AA. So I am going to assume you dont mean me.
Lewis |
*shrugs*
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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I actually don't remember the mission number. I think it was called something like "Fire Ambush Farm" with around 800 votes on it.
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Originally Posted by flipside
Would you be willing to share which AE mission you ran? I'm having trouble reading the mission text in the video capture to try and find it.
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Fire Thug Ambush, by @Naphal.
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Didn't get to try this one, but I tried two other ones I found via the Brute forum thread. One was the Crey's ambush one and the other was named Frontloaded. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I actually don't remember the mission number. I think it was called something like "Fire Ambush Farm" with around 800 votes on it.
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Both ran at +0x8 and +1x8, no bosses on either. I was quite surprised to find that my controller did amazingly, never dying and only dipping below 1/2 health once. I'm sure I wasn't every efficient however in the timing, but nothing was touching me either. I felt quite safe. This character has pretty paltry defense numbers, somewhere in the teens to low 20's on any position. But, none of that really matters when the inspirations are flying like rain and you can keep 3 purples stacked at any given time.
If I were to do this on a regular basis, I would need a second build with some ridiculous high recharge on it. My main sources of AoE damage are Frostbite and Ice Storm. Frostbite recharges fast but is low damage, even with all the procs I have slotted in it (except when most of them fire at the same time, at which I can obliterate an entire spawn with one application of Frostbite). Ice Storm is slow to recharge for something like this. I would need to get it perma for efficiency in this. I can lay down nearly 3 applications of Freezing Rain before Ice Storm is recharged on my current build.
All in all, I was impressed. I intend to go back and see how well he can do with upping to +2, +3 and +4.
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
Don't forget you can also spec into Frost Breath for more AoE.
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Yup, and I have it. It was just difficult to line up shots with it in the middle of all that carnage. The couple times Judgement went off was fun though.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Don't forget you can also spec into Frost Breath for more AoE.
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
This would be incredibly fun on an ice/psi/ice dom....
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I consider them safe as anything. Why? There is no exploit. It's simply matching damage type with mitigation type. You can do this for fire, S/L, energy, etc... Obviously some damage types would be bad, ie Ice with no ability to resist -slow/-recharge, Dark since there is -tohit debuffs, -elec without end drain resist. If a build can pump out enough damage and mitigation to pull if off, it can farm. /fire brutes are not exclusive in this. I am currently self PLing a SS/elec brute. Fire farms gets hyped only due to Fire armor builds doing them. There are numerous S/L farms out there as well.|
Originally Posted by flipside
So, and this may be a question no one can answer, but how "safe" are these missions considered in that regard?
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Another point here, there are generally two reasons to farm. One is to get tickets. Each map has a 1.5K limit. There is one I do at +2x8 and can cap just by doing the initial room. The number of builds that can do something similar is a lot. The other reason is to PL other people. This is where you want to be able to do +4x8 w/bosses and ideally as fast as possible. The number of builds that do this gets much smaller. A SS/fire/mu brute is king for this.
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Not sure if Crey's, or FRONTLOAD rose to fame first, but Crey's is a poor ambush farm in terms of rewards over time. It requires too much maneuvering. Plus, it's a single mission so you waste time resetting the mission versus just grabbing another. Same issue with FRONTLOAD as well. You want 5 mission arcs instead. #423253 is one of them. #460877 should be another.
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Originally Posted by flipside
One was the Crey's ambush one and the other was named Frontloaded.
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This is a great point. You would (probably) not want to use an Ice Control to PL other people. I do it for the tickets. Running this mission with my Ice Controller I think gets me around 800-900 tickets, which is short of the cap but much better, IMO, than being broke. I can do it at up to about +2. Bosses are pretty much a no-go (too much damage and immune to the Confusion).|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Another point here, there are generally two reasons to farm. One is to get tickets. Each map has a 1.5K limit. There is one I do at +2x8 and can cap just by doing the initial room. The number of builds that can do something similar is a lot. The other reason is to PL other people. This is where you want to be able to do +4x8 w/bosses and ideally as fast as possible. The number of builds that do this gets much smaller. A SS/fire/mu brute is king for this.
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In addition to my Ice troller, I have also done this mission with an Ice/Fire Dominator and a Rad/Fire Blaster (the latter with no IOs and some very delicate footwork with inspirations). Its doable with the right mindset. Ice Dominators have a lot more direct damage to work with but their AA duration is lower, so they may have to use a few more tricks. The Blaster dies occasionally but subsists on pure damage.
As for regular missions, Ice is sort of a conundrum. It's still one of the lowest damage sets in the game. But IMO its also one of the most fun, and definitely not locked out from getting money or salvage drops.
I've been trying to get my video capture to work for months to capture my Ice/Rad troller, and finally got it to function. This is basically a demo of fire ambush farming with that character. He is more or less capped to ranged defense and while that helps the farm isn't specific to that. The character is also not really built for farming, being Ice/Rad/Psi. The AoE immobilize is also not slotted for damage or procs. I do eat inspirations during this (as anyone should while farming) but was kind of half-arsed about it.
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Anyway, the central trick on display here is fighting with bosses off, and just staying alive while using Frostbite to freeze enemies in place and Arctic Air to confuse them into killing each other while you throw Psi-Nados at them. Note that I do not use Ice Slick, Glacier, Shiver, or Choking Cloud here at all. The reason is that these powers stop enemies from hitting each other, and that's what you don't want in this situation. It works so well because Arctic Air is always active, so when an enemy dies and rezzes, its confused again before it can stand.
Part of the reason I'm showing the video is to show that any Ice Controller (or Dominator) can do this, as I'm not really using the secondary at all except for the heal and AM. It's probably safest for the Controllers with self heals, especially Kinetics. /Storm could probably clean house on the damage. Even /Empathy and /Force Field should be pretty good at this though. If you don't have the defenses, bring a stack of purples to start and combine drops to always keep your defenses high.
Note that on teams, I do make more use of my self-survival tools. This is mainly a solo trick. It especially works well in Tip missions with lots of ambushes.
Anyway, here's the craziness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZyL9m4E1U
[PS I'm not suggesting rolling an Ice troller just to farm. Just showing that if you already have one and like playing it there are ways to make it work. And also why you should never ever skip Arctic Air.