The best thing you can do is to keep the hard targets attacking you. If you're over the aggro cap, AFAIK, the boss will take priority over a LT in your aggro list. In other words, if you aggro 30 enemies, 15 of them minions, 10 of them LT's, and 5 of them bosses, your aggro cap will include all of the LT's and bosses while almost all of the minions will be attacking your teammates. But since they are minions they can be taken care of easily.
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The aggro cap simply serves to balance the degree of protection a single "aggro magnet" can manage at a given time, otherwise things get trivially easy for everyone else (See: Dumpster Farming w/ Fire Tanks).
As far as the mission in question, two things: first, the mobs aren't pre-spawned... they only start to appear once you are within aggro range; second, I try to hit the portals from as far away as possible, thus preventing a good deal of Rikti from spawning in the first place.
Also, the aggro cap is not adjusted based on spawn size, or by anything, the cap is the cap, always and forever.
Your friend was a blaster, so should have been able to take out the portals one at a time from good range. As he's doing this the spawn from that portal may rush him, so you should be able to pick them up. Don't rush in, wait for them to come to you. I did this with a blaster and a defender which very little hassle.
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I've never seen that happen, and I actually have experience showing the opposite. Aggroing 17 rikti monkeys and then running into a new spawn, no reaction from any mob of the new group until I punch or taunt one of them, at which point one rikti monkey will back away to his spawn point.
| AFAIK, the boss will take priority over a LT in your aggro list. In other words, if you aggro 30 enemies, 15 of them minions, 10 of them LT's, and 5 of them bosses, your aggro cap will include all of the LT's and bosses while almost all of the minions will be attacking your teammates. |
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In this mission I can definitely say that when I first aggroed the group I got the two EBs, the bosses and a large number of Lts. The minions and monkeys ignored me for quite some time.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I've never seen that happen, and I actually have experience showing the opposite. Aggroing 17 rikti monkeys and then running into a new spawn, no reaction from any mob of the new group until I punch or taunt one of them, at which point one rikti monkey will back away to his spawn point.
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I've never seen that happen either and I do a lot of farming.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I've never seen that happen, and I actually have experience showing the opposite. Aggroing 17 rikti monkeys and then running into a new spawn, no reaction from any mob of the new group until I punch or taunt one of them, at which point one rikti monkey will back away to his spawn point.
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That's interesting, perhaps I mis-read Dechs' guide here: http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...f-tanking.html|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I've never seen that happen, and I actually have experience showing the opposite. Aggroing 17 rikti monkeys and then running into a new spawn, no reaction from any mob of the new group until I punch or taunt one of them, at which point one rikti monkey will back away to his spawn point.
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Let's see...
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison, How Aggro Works
Every enemy has to decide which player to attack. It does this by assessing a "threat" value that is calculated for each player the enemy is aware of. These values are then sorted into a list and the enemy attacks the player with the highest threat on this list that the enemy is able to.
The formula, as close as the game developers will tell us, takes into account the amount of damage a player has done, the range that damage came from (melee or ranged), the archetype of that player, any secondary effects from that player, and a taunt value. It is important to note that this taunt value is dependent on the taunt duration which is remaining. A fifteen second taunt is very strong when it is first applied and much weaker thirteen seconds later. There is another factor which is unique to the type of enemy which may cause it to be threatened by some attributes more than others, but any more details of this has not been released. There is another aggro list you need to be aware of as well, your own. At any one point in time, you can have no more than seventeen enemies attacking you. This aggro cap was put in place to prevent zone wide "herding" of enemies. This list is sorted by only two factors. The enemies that have been most recently attacked are at the top of the list. The second sorting mechanic is enemy rank, with higher rank enemies given priority. If you could somehow attack seventeen of each bosses, lieutenants and minions all at the same time, only the bosses would retaliate. What this means is that, even if you could be the highest threat for any more than seventeen enemies, the enemies at the bottom of your aggro list will be forced to attack someone else. |
Edit: So yeah, if you've recently attacked 17 monkeys(and they lived) then even if you get right near a boss he won't attack you. However, if you attack 17 monkeys as well as the boss, one monkey will wander off.
What can we take from this? Make sure you either taunt the Bosses and LT's or hit them with something.
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I didn't know that damaged trumped the other rules. Interesting.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
The enemies that have been most recently attacked are at the top of the list.
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For the record I was mainly using Footstomp
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Unfortunately, in this case all that means is instead of rushing in and controlling the spawns we are reduced to pulling. Also trivially easy. Not even sure it takes any longer.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
The aggro cap simply serves to balance the degree of protection a single "aggro magnet" can manage at a given time, otherwise things get trivially easy for everyone else (See: Dumpster Farming w/ Fire Tanks).
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
As far as the mission in question, two things: first, the mobs aren't pre-spawned... they only start to appear once you are within aggro range; second, I try to hit the portals from as far away as possible, thus preventing a good deal of Rikti from spawning in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Also, the aggro cap is not adjusted based on spawn size, or by anything, the cap is the cap, always and forever.
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When I said it was calculated based on maximum spawn size I meant that was the justification the Devs used for that number. I think. It was a long time ago, I could be wrong, I can't remember what half my characters powers do! 
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I just did the mission you're talking about on a Stalker, and yes, the mobs do seem to port in early, and there's a room full of enemies just waiting for you.
Still, pulling at times can be beneficial. This is one of them. It might be just as easy, and just about as time consuming, but it works in cases like these. A good Tanker knows when pulling is the better option.
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Actually it doesn't matter whether it's a Minion, LT or boss, when you have the agro cap of 17 following you, and you hit any other target, that particular enemy will grab agro on you and you will lose one of the previously agroed enemies.
Now, if you can defeat the first 17 mobs fast enough, you can then cause a agro chain as I like to call it, meaning if you agro more than the 17 you can agro, and pull them into another group and throw off a taunt, then go around a corner and defeat the first 17 fast, then the next group that you taunted will come at you as well. Because your taunt has a pretty long duration, and by defeating the first 17 the taunt effect is still lingering allowing the second group to come to you.
Ambushes work differently. If you trigger the ambush, the ambush will stay on you as long as you don't die. Meaning if you trigger 4 ambushes and the first 17 come at you, when you defeat them the next 17 will come and so on. And you don't have to taunt a single one of them.
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This is correct, and is stated in my guide. Perhaps I need to word it more clearly if this is not obvious enough.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Actually it doesn't matter whether it's a Minion, LT or boss, when you have the agro cap of 17 following you, and you hit any other target, that particular enemy will grab agro on you and you will lose one of the previously agroed enemies.
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The first sorting mechanic of your aggro list, i.e. the one that takes priority over enemy rank, is which enemies you have recently attacked.
This can be abused, actually, if you are a tank with a non-damaging taunt aura. Enter a mission, attack the first group of enemies. Now, run through the mission and nothing else will attack you so long as you don't hit them first. Grab glowies, recall friend your teammates, whatever you want to do. Until that initial group catches up to you (or you go through an elevator, thus shedding that aggro), you can't be attacked.
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I am not 100% sure, but I think this is inaccurate. I was fairly sure that rank of enemy WAS a determining factor in where an enemy was placed on one's threat list... and that the ones on the bottom dropped off first. Of course, that is not the ONLY factor, so in practice it may not work that way. Of course, I could be totally full of it.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Actually it doesn't matter whether it's a Minion, LT or boss[...]
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Well, not to sound rude in my reply, but I'm correct in my post. Rank means nothing. You can test this yourself if you'd like.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I am not 100% sure, but I think this is inaccurate. I was fairly sure that rank of enemy WAS a determining factor in where an enemy was placed on one's threat list... and that the ones on the bottom dropped off first. Of course, that is not the ONLY factor, so in practice it may not work that way. Of course, I could be totally full of it.
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Grab any map you wish, change difficulty so that you are fighting bosses then proceed to grab agro on 1 or 2 groups depending on your team size. Then once you have agro cap, go to another group, then stand there and wait for the previous 17 to come to you. Punch one of the Minions, or LT thats are just standing there doing nothing. You will see that you will gain their agro and one of the previous you had agroed will walk away from you. Then punch another standing there and watch it repeat itself.
What most people may be seeing including yourself is a damage aura actually hitting one of the bosses thus making you think that the Boss take priority over the lower ranked enemies in that group.
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I've got another test for you to do.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Grab any map you wish, change difficulty so that you are fighting bosses then proceed to grab agro on 1 or 2 groups depending on your team size. Then once you have agro cap, go to another group, then stand there and wait for the previous 17 to come to you. Punch one of the Minions, or LT thats are just standing there doing nothing. You will see that you will gain their agro and one of the previous you had agroed will walk away from you. Then punch another standing there and watch it repeat itself.
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Go aggro one group of enemies that includes bosses. Then jump into another group and punch minions until the first bosses fall off your list. They will be the last to fall off.
You're right that the order of attack is a priority, but it is not the only determining factor. Rank plays a big role.
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I can tell you already, I've done that. And I've seen bosses lose agro and walk away as well. Like I said I do a lot of farming, which is why I say I know rank doesn't play a part in it at all. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've got another test for you to do.
Go aggro one group of enemies that includes bosses. Then jump into another group and punch minions until the first bosses fall off your list. They will be the last to fall off. You're right that the order of attack is a priority, but it is not the only determining factor. Rank plays a big role. |
You're right to say that if bosses were to be the last to walk away I would agree rank would play a part in agro, but like I said that's not the case. I constantly agro multiple groups and I find myself always chasing after bosses when I see them starting to walk away since I lost agro due to me hitting other mobs past my agro cap.
Now, the only way ranks play a part in this is that they are the last to be standing
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Then we both have different experiences. I can say I've done a great deal of testing on this and I know for a fact that bosses will walk away from you last provided they were hit at the same time. |
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
You're right to say that if bosses were to be the last to walk away I would agree rank would play a part in agro, but like I said that's not the case. I constantly agro multiple groups and I find myself always chasing after bosses when I see them starting to walk away since I lost agro due to me hitting other mobs past my agro cap.
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I've done this with and without my damage aura running. With it, they are much more likely to stick around, as the damage aura refreshes your "most recent attacked" much more often and keeps all enemies at the same "timestamp." I've found I can replicate this without the damage aura by using only AoE attacks.
Now, if you've been using a lot of single or few target attacks, then you throw the system for a loop. Every enemy will have different timestamps, so it will much easier for a boss to be shed by the timestamp rule.
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Quote:
That's a very good possibility. You run a damaging aura and I do not. The only AOE damage I have is footstomp, and I do see different patterns than you. So it is very possible, but I can't answer that for sure as I have no way to tell.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Then we both have different experiences. I can say I've done a great deal of testing on this and I know for a fact that bosses will walk away from you last provided they were hit at the same time.
I've done this with and without my damage aura running. With it, they are much more likely to stick around, as the damage aura refreshes your "most recent attacked" much more often and keeps all enemies at the same "timestamp." I've found I can replicate this without the damage aura by using only AoE attacks. Now, if you've been using a lot of single or few target attacks, then you throw the system for a loop. Every enemy will have different timestamps, so it will much easier for a boss to be shed by the timestamp rule. |
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I love the idea of now being able to make a lvl 1 on any server. One could make a lvl 1 and go see what Dechs is talking about. I was bound on europe only before.
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Hi,
I've just popped back after a long time away. I've been playing in Praetoria (enjoying that) and have just started running my favourite tank through the Incarnate introductory missions. I'd been doing them solo, all fine, but when I teamed up with an old friend (blaster) to do the Rikti War Zone mission I had some problems.
Solo it was okay. Running through with my blaster friend and he kept dying. I am guessing the problem was the pre-spawned portals and the fact that the number of spawns greatly exceeded the aggro cap. Standing there on my own I could see that less than half the Rikti were attacking me and as I killed them, others would wake up and join the fray. Great for me but lousy for my blaster friend.
I vaguely remember the aggro cap (17?) and that it was calculated based on the max spawn size for a mission. But here is a mission with multiple spawns, pre-formed before you arrive, that breaks that limit several times over.
So whats the best way to deal with these situations? Are we stuck to pulling or has a nicer tactic been developed while I've been away? And I was wondering, if an Incarnate tank can absorb even more damage, wont it get a little pointless unless they can increase the aggro cap as well?
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04