Why make a Defender today vs Corruptor?


A Man In Black

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
What's also worth noting is, if you do a lot of endgame TFs/SFs/Trials, Scourge adds a tremendous amount of damage. Its overkill most of the time on minions/lts, but does terrific damage on targets with a lot of health like AVs and GMs.
It's more than AVs and GMs as well, the endgame is highly populated with EBs and entire Boss spawns/Ambushes. They have more than enough HP to heavily leverage scourge.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
It's more than AVs and GMs as well, the endgame is highly populated with EBs and entire Boss spawns/Ambushes. They have more than enough HP to heavily leverage scourge.
nuh uh Defenders are better in every way also Tankers are better than Scrappers and Brutes because they're tougher and also do way more damage


Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

Posted

Though I could not be more bored with the Defender vs Corruptor debate, one item did catch my attention above - the Trip Mine #s. So I did a little digging and it looks like MM, Corr and Blaster Trip Mine all does the same damage, but Defender does 65% of the damage those do. Where the heck did that modifier come from? So... MM Trip Mine can = Blaster Trip Mine, but Def must be nerfed to heck? I don't get it, I'm sure it's an issue raised before that I didn't pay attention to. Now I'm paying attention. Anyway, I'll shush, out of fear any actual response would include a nerfing to MM Trip Mine, and I'd rather my Defs be unduly low than see my MM nerfed.

Still, I have to ask, has anyone seen an explanation from the development team on this discrepancy? It just can't be right.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Defender damage is .65 of blaster damage. Now why corrs and MMs got blaster damage is unknown.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Defender damage is .65 of blaster damage. Now why corrs and MMs got blaster damage is unknown.
This is just a guess and all speculation, but I am pretty sure it is just that when traps first came out the devs were too lazy to make a new pet so just included the old blaster trip mine verbatim.

Then when defenders got traps they realized that it does a whole lot of aoe damage and so reigned it in and gave defenders the archetype appropriate one. They probably also wanted to change the mm and cor versions at that point, but they had been out too many years for that to do anything but create a huge outcry (and traps had recently suffered the poison trap nerf as well so more would not have been viewed favorably.)

I just think it is funny that several times recently I have heard traps pointed to on this forum as one that is so much better for defenders than corruptors, and I think the exact opposite is true. I don't think the better debuff/buff numbers overcome the almost-as-good-(de)buff numbers and almost 50% higher base aoe damage output.


"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

 

Posted

I sent a PM to Synapse with the data since they are one of the Powers people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ail_ View Post
This is just a guess and all speculation, but I am pretty sure it is just that when traps first came out the devs were too lazy to make a new pet so just included the old blaster trip mine verbatim.

Then when defenders got traps they realized that it does a whole lot of aoe damage and so reigned it in and gave defenders the archetype appropriate one. They probably also wanted to change the mm and cor versions at that point, but they had been out too many years for that to do anything but create a huge outcry (and traps had recently suffered the poison trap nerf as well so more would not have been viewed favorably.)
The problem with this is Trip Mine is a pet and to my knowledge pets get the attributes/damage across all ATs, see Tornado.


 

Posted

To answer the topic question.

Because defender powers are stronger...they actualy heal for more and give better defenses, buffs and debuffs all across the board.

A corruptor gets to do scourge....but because they are a coorruptor their blast damage is reduced....and since they are not a defender their buffs and debuffs and defenses are lower.

The best way to see the difference would be to simply team up as a corruptor with a defender or a be a defender and team up with a corruptor who has the same powers.

Then during the play time on a team left click on the effect icons and see what they are giving....

I think that will explain enough for anyone.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty View Post
but because they are a coorruptor their blast damage is reduced
Compared to blasters, or defenders? If defenders, I would love to see the data backing up such a claim.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
I sent a PM to Synapse with the data since they are one of the Powers people.



The problem with this is Trip Mine is a pet and to my knowledge pets get the attributes/damage across all ATs, see Tornado.
Ouch! I wouldn't have used the word "lazy" if I had known you were forwarding it on to a dev. It's true about teh intarwebz, huh, what you say can be repeated ANYWHERE!

(Just joking...well...partially at least...and no hard feelings.)

Edit: Whew! Upon reading your post again you were just saying you were forwarding the data to Synapse and not my mini-rant.

Edit 2: My gut feeling is that trip mine is also the reason traps has taken so long to get to controllers. Yes, controllers get damage in their epics, but they aren't supposed to get mini-nuke level damage that can go off with only 5-ish sec recharge in recharge heavy builds pre-epic. Maybe back in the old days you could say you had tediously to plant the mines before a fight, but in today's defense-heavy IO-world, defense comes pretty easily. I love oil slick but there is somewhat difference between a 20 sec recharge ability and a 180 sec recharge one (even if at the end of the day I probably like oil slick better as an ability.)


"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Defender damage is .65 of blaster damage. Now why corrs and MMs got blaster damage is unknown.
To nit-pick, Def dmg = .65 of base damage, and Blaster dmg = 1.15 (give or take, but definitely > 1) of base damage. So a Blaster does close to twice the dmg of a Def (whatever 1.15/.65 is).

The number .65 sure does seem coincidental though. A skeptic might say that late in testing, someone finally realized "Defender Time Bomb does too much damage" and the response was "well.... hit it by the AT modifier" and that was that. I, for one, tend to be a skeptic.

I do have to confess I may have to change my tune a little. I certainly have been one of those saying "Defender Traps is at least as good as any Corrs Traps" but this Time Bomb bombshell has me rethinking that... Like, to the extent to say the sets aren't balanced and MMs and Corrs are way ahead.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
To nit-pick, Def dmg = .65 of base damage, and Blaster dmg = 1.15 (give or take, but definitely > 1) of base damage. So a Blaster does close to twice the dmg of a Def (whatever 1.15/.65 is).

The number .65 sure does seem coincidental though. A skeptic might say that late in testing, someone finally realized "Defender Time Bomb does too much damage" and the response was "well.... hit it by the AT modifier" and that was that. I, for one, tend to be a skeptic.

I do have to confess I may have to change my tune a little. I certainly have been one of those saying "Defender Traps is at least as good as any Corrs Traps" but this Time Bomb bombshell has me rethinking that... Like, to the extent to say the sets aren't balanced and MMs and Corrs are way ahead.
I think you mean trip mine and not time bomb above...


"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Compared to blasters, or defenders? If defenders, I would love to see the data backing up such a claim.
ahh thats easy to do.

Just log onto your game and go into the character creation menu and make some characters....like a dominator or blaster or whatever.

Then choose show detail in the one pain....you will see you not only have a level slider....but also can actual see the base damage average the power is supposed to give and its effects.

In game you can left click onthe powers if you have them and look at the details and you can see what you are getting. you can also go into your enhancement management screen and see details that way.....
The leveling up screen though.....doesnt seam to give all the details for some reason.

If you are not sure that the game is reporting the correct numbers which you will notice happens alot(like for example where your sniper power says it does extreme damage and says its average is 200 damage yet you notice you never go over 150).....you should use a program like hero stats...and then go into its logs and look at the damage you do....you can graph and see what exactly you are doing.


Notice how i am not telling you to get some creation program that hasnt been updated for a while or has bad data or telling you to go to a web site with incorrect information.

My suggestions all capture actual in game data that is being reported to you.

I hope that helps in finding the blast power damage amounts you wanted to know about.


 

Posted

Heh. This is going to require popcorn, isn't it?


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I have something relevant to this discussion that I think is probably fairly uncommon - two characters with the same powersets and builds - one Corruptor and one Defender. I have a Dark Miasma/Dark Blast/Power Mastery Defender and a Dark Blast/Dark Miasma/Power Mastery Corruptor. Both are 50, both are IO'd. They have extremely similar builds, sharing all the same power picks, with slight variations in how I slotted them with IOs. Only one is "incarnated" currently (both have their VR Alphas), but they will both likely have the same Incarnate power other than possibly Lore pets. Both have gotten plenty of play time. Both are played solo and on teams - usually TFs, iTrials or raids.

Why did I do this? Build two such nearly identical characters? Because I really liked the powerset combo on a Defender, and I wanted to experience how it differed on a Corruptor.

Despite the fact that Dark Miasma has a couple of pet-based powers that share stats between the Corruptor and Defender versions, most of the powers in both sets obey AT modifiers. For two characters who otherwise play very similarly, I can very much feel those differences, especially when solo. They should be pretty obvious to most players - the Corruptor tends to deal more direct damage, and has a noticeably easier time beating down bosses or higher. The Defender is safer, gaining more from self buffs, wielding stronger debuffs and longer-lasting mezzes.

Against similar foes, my D/D Defender may actually solo +4/x8 faster than my D/D Corruptor, because she does so more safely, requiring less fiddling to stay alive. Against less extreme odds, the Corruptor probably pulls ahead, because she can handily survive, and typically deals more damage. Which do I prefer to play? It depends what mood I'm in. Each have their benefits, and both to well enough that I've never felt inadequate on a team.

What is the best AT choice for any given player depends on their goals. If your primary focus is teaming, and you like doing more damage, the Corruptor is a solid choice, because it probably is good enough at buffing and debuffing that the rest comes down to the damage preference. The difference in what the Defender can do with buffs and debuffs is numerically meaningful, but the practical difference is extremely unlikely tip any team's balance such that they would fail any current challenge. My opinion is to play what you like conceptually, what provides the stats you like to see and the provides experience you want to play. For me, both ATs can do that. They just do it by focusing on different things.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty View Post
A corruptor gets to do scourge....but because they are a coorruptor their blast damage is reduced....and since they are not a defender their buffs and debuffs and defenses are lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty View Post
ahh thats easy to do.

Just log onto your game and go into the character creation menu and make some characters....like a dominator or blaster or whatever.

Then choose show detail in the one pain....you will see you not only have a level slider....but also can actual see the base damage average the power is supposed to give and its effects.
Dark Blast Corr: 41.71
Dark Blast Def: 36.15

Bitter Ice Blast Corr: 95.09
Bitter Ice Blast Def: 82.41

Power Burst Corr: 88.42
Power Burst Def: 76.63

It's like the devs gave defenders a .65 damage modifier and corrs a .75. Oh right, they did. Another thing, defender damage cap is 400%. Corrs go to 500%. Again, show me numbers that back your claims up.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty View Post
like for example where your sniper power says it does extreme damage and says its average is 200 damage yet you notice you never go over 150
Damage resistance.


 

Posted

Is Rad blast better on a def ?
in beta ive been foolinaround wit rad/time an i wanted to know what would be better in like a Av fight


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ail_ View Post
I think you mean trip mine and not time bomb above...
Yes and no.

Yes in that my original intent was indeed with regard to Trip Mine.

No in that Time Bomb has the same discrepancy - Blaster and Corr Trip Mine does the same damage (278) and Defenders do 65% of that (181). MMs were spared Time Bomb for a different flavored turd.

Of course one of the classic philosophical questions is "If a power sucks and no one takes it, can it be imbalanced?" They'd have to do a lot more than up the damage to Blaster level for me to consider Time Bomb.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Alright so here's a question. AR/Traps--better on a defender, or a corruptor? The numbers on a corruptor will look great, however, the debuff on Traps is just ridiculous. This is also a bit of a concept build with the AR.

Defender looks like, while the numbers won't be as pretty right off the bat, you have the benefit of some sick debuffs (Which many can't be enhanced), great base numbers, and I think that those will be enough to make up for your lack of attack power.

With that, I also have a quick question with acid mortar, is the actual mortar round itself a single target or AOE projectile?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenJackal View Post
With that, I also have a quick question with acid mortar, is the actual mortar round itself a single target or AOE projectile?
Max of 16 targets. Link

EDIT: Due to radius size I doubt is ever gets that high, but at least it's not a ST attack.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Max of 16 targets. Link

EDIT: Due to radius size I doubt is ever gets that high, but at least it's not a ST attack.
Okay, cool. Thanks! Now...to answer the first question, defender or corr. I'm leaning towards defender because...well, while your damage ain't gonna be that high compared to a corr or blaster, the rest of the team will make up for it I assume.