Quote:
Using kinetics as an example is a very poor comparison point, since the damage cap is the damage cap, and that's mostly what kinetics is known for. The other thing kinetics is known for is full endurance bars. Whether you're a corruptor or a defender, there's very little difference between "always full endurance" and "always full endurance."|
Originally Posted by ThePhlebotomist
Eventually, after villains were introduced, I made an Ice/Kin Corruptor to play with some evil-minded friends. At level 50, she blew away my Kin/Ice Defender. The increased damage made her more versatile and any difference in buff strength went unnoticed.
|
The one noticeable difference will be that a defender can neuter an AV's damage potential, easily stacking up to the cap of -damage. It's a lot harder for a corruptor to accomplish that.
When it comes to most of the other buffing and debuffing sets, and particularly debuffing blasts, when your goal is the support effects, there's never a better choice than a defender.
Keep in mind leadership values for defenders are higher too.
It's really just a difference in play style. The corruptor is a support secondary. He's there to do damage, and he'll buff when he wants to. Where it is common for a kin defender to keep his team SB'd, I am surprised if I see a kin corruptor who does the same.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Besides preferences for what zones you start in, the primary/secondary level you get powers does come into play especially if you are into flashbacks/SF's.
Solo, the difference between the two is extremely similar, due to vigilance. But on a full team, the corrupter will do a lot more damage.
Against high-health targets, the damage margin grows larger in favor of corrs due to scourge.
It's funny you write this; I've been hearing the opposite kind of thinking from friends lately. The new raids make buffing more valuable and individual damage less valuable, and Vigilance means that Defenders aren't horrible soloing or on small teams either. I personally don't have an opinion either way, though I do think it's worth pointing out that Corruptors' damage scale isn't too different from Defenders' - it's 0.75 compared to 0.65.
I think Defender is just a bit boring. You don't see "Scourge". I know Scourge overkills a lot of time but from a gamer's point of view, seeing that Double Damage is just cool.
Kinetic is one set that fits Controller and Corruptor better IMO but you get the buff powers earlier.
There are some sets that I may try on Defender just because the debuff/buff values are a lot higher. Rad/Sonic is one combo that is very strong on Defender. Sonic Resonance is also another set that I may try on Defender. I wasn't too pleased with it on Corr.
Nothing against Defender. I just don't think their inherent is "exciting". And as far as their usefulness in trial, hell yeah, their buffs/debuffs are still very useful.
One thing about feeling useful in trials... I think it's common to feel that you are not doing much because the team is so large and you feel like what you are doing doesn't stand out. They all add up in the end.
Wanna feel very insignificant? Go play a MA Stalker! I've been playing so many stalkers so feeling insignificant is not new to me. :P In fact, I've failed BAF twice on a large team and both times I use Stalkers. LOL
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I play a defender as one of my mains and I genuinely feel that my Cold Defender just brings more to the table than a comparable Controller or Corruptor as a buff/debuffer. I also have a rad and FF controller and a pain corruptor. As support characters they're all good, but the Cold/Ice Defender more than most of my characters just has the ability to swing a battle. Her debuffs HURT, her buffs have noticeable and immediate effects.
I have my Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters and Doms when I want damage.
My 2 inf.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I would argue that this is no longer the case since all buffs are AoEs now. there might be a difference in playstyle of the player, but not a difference in play style of the AT (which might be what you're saying and i just can't read). I think you'll see more corrs buffing regularly, if they didn't already, because it's such and easy one click cast as apposed to cycling through the team. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's really just a difference in play style. The corruptor is a support secondary. He's there to do damage, and he'll buff when he wants to. Where it is common for a kin defender to keep his team SB'd, I am surprised if I see a kin corruptor who does the same.
|
to the OP, i think there is a reason to play a defender over corr, but you have to approach it on a case by case basis. for instance i've got a cold/ice defender that I was really tempted to reroll corr since the -res values in sleet and heatloss are the same and IIRC the only major differences in those sets were either the value or duration of the slows in every power. and even in those sets that do have a higher modifier on defenders, for instance off the top of my head freezing rain comes to mind 35% on defenders 30 for other versions, I figured that value was outweighed by the higher damage mod and scourge.
on the flip side of that though, my cold fendur is much easier to soft cap due to the higher defense mods, which if you're running 2-3 defense toggles adds up.
there are also different powersets per AT ala FF and fire
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
*nitpick* Did i20.5 launch today?|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
I would argue that this is no longer the case since all buffs are AoEs now. there might be a difference in playstyle of the player, but not a difference in play style of the AT (which might be what you're saying and i just can't read). I think you'll see more corrs buffing regularly, if they didn't already, because it's such and easy one click cast as apposed to cycling through the team.
|
I still believe there is a difference in the play style between the ATs. You make a defender because you want the best buffer in the game. You make a corruptor because you want a damage dealer that has a support secondary. It's an entirely different approach to a character. Through the leveling process, the defender will have access to more support powers than the corruptor. As a result, the defender will spend more of his time using these powers and the focus of the defender's build will likely be biased to these powers. It's true at level 50 both builds could be almost identical, but that leveling process isn't something you outgrow. If you spent the first 40 levels playing as a defender, you're probably going to keep focusing on support over blast.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I just looked at Trap's number on Defender. Damn, that's some sick numbers if you have enough recharge to stack Acid Mortar. |
Originally Posted by PC_guy
to the OP, i think there is a reason to play a defender over corr, but you have to approach it on a case by case basis. for instance i've got a cold/ice defender that I was really tempted to reroll corr since the -res values in sleet and heatloss are the same and IIRC the only major differences in those sets were either the value or duration of the slows in every power. and even in those sets that do have a higher modifier on defenders, for instance off the top of my head freezing rain comes to mind 35% on defenders 30 for other versions, I figured that value was outweighed by the higher damage mod and scourge. |
26.6 x 2 = 53.2% resistance debuff on their own and you add AH procs for another 20% and if your primary is Sonic Blast, holy s@#$!.
Looks like Trap/Sonic or Trap/Ice is a keeper. Not sure why I haven't seen more Trap Defender. It looks VERY GOOD on papers. There are many Fire/Trap Corrs. Well, you don't have Rain of Fire but you at least have Ice Storm.
I wonder why they modified Trap's "Pet" debuff/buff but not for Tar Patch and Freezing Rain type of powers?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Why be a defender:
- Traps/ :: Better Numbers
- Empathy/
- FF/
- Sonic/ :: Better Numbers
- /Sonic Blast :: Better Numbers
- Easier to Self-Softcap :: The better numbers on all the buffs makes this easier, cheaper, and more diverse.
- Vigilance for Team Endurance Buff :: Weak argument, but if you're NOT going to IO or Incarnate a character, this is a valid option; especially so with something endurance heavy like Storm.
Why be a Corruptor:
- Fire Blast
- Scourge
- Pain Domination
All the rest of the sets I feel like can go either way, and will by default most often go Corruptor for the extra damage, unless that's over-riden by the desire to softcap combined with costs of the build.
Defenders are my favorite archetype. Can't really give a concrete reason as to why... I just enjoy them the most, and a non-rational level. I find them fun.
Corruptors... despite the fact that I know they're rather similar, they're somewhere around my least favorite archetype. And I really don't know why. I keep giving them a chance, and am nearing getting one to 50, but I just don't have as much fun on them.
No archetype will ever be obsolete as long as there's someone who finds it to be fun.
Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
Quote:
/this.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Besides preferences for what zones you start in, the primary/secondary level you get powers does come into play especially if you are into flashbacks/SF's.
|
Plus, I get my FF/DP character only as a defender.
I think a lot of good reasons have been given already for choosing defenders over Corruptors. I think one of my favorites though, is that with the Cardiac Alpha Slot, and tough and temporary invulnerability, a Defender can hit the AT resistance cap for smashing and lethal damage. Without cardiac (30+15)*(1.6)=72% and a little help from cardiac puts you to 75%. Corruptors on the other hand would have (22.5+11.5)*1.6 = 54.4 and even with cardiac would still be far short of that 75% goal.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
Add Traps/dark to the list. /dark offers -tohit debuffs to stack with FFG. You get a blast/heal to help stay vertical. Oh, and then there's this for kicks and giggles. Damage procs don't benefit from +dmg, but they do -res. A damage proc on a level 50 with 53.2% -res on a target is doing about 110 damage. Both T.T. and Nightfall take a combined 5 damage procs. They have a base recharge of 10 seconds.
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I just looked at Trap's number on Defender. Damn, that's some sick numbers if you have enough recharge to stack Acid Mortar.
26.6 x 2 = 53.2% resistance debuff on their own and you add AH procs for another 20% and if your primary is Sonic Blast, holy s@#$!. Looks like Trap/Sonic or Trap/Ice is a keeper. Not sure why I haven't seen more Trap Defender. It looks VERY GOOD on papers. |
Because my Traps/ice has 60% ranged def, 50% def to melee/Aoe, 45% to all types, Pema hasten, AND FORCE OF NATURE.
Good luck doing all that on a Corruptor.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
I stick with my Defender because I have no use for a damaging primary. I have Dark Blast, Gloom, and Life Drain to help with soloing, and Tentacles for when I want to force something to stand in FR while I do something else. I have Lightning Storms and Tornadoes and Snow Storms and Hurricanes and Freezing Rain to be making. I have no time for this blasting nonsense.
As other people said, specific powersets have a lot to do with it. Personally, I prefer defenders because they have higher self buff modifiers (personal survivability is very important to me on support characters) and because at high levels a lot of my damage comes from damage procs which don't care about archetype. I have plenty of both though.
I always put it simply.
Defender: Better on teams.
Corruptor: Better at solo.
Both can team, both can solo. They just do one thing better than the other.
Quote:
Defenders have an easier time softcapping defenses, and get a sizeable damage buff that they lose when teaming.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I always put it simply.
Defender: Better on teams. Corruptor: Better at solo. Both can team, both can solo. They just do one thing better than the other. |
On the other hand, Corruptors get access to a blast set with no mitigation but extra damage, perfect for teaming, where other people are handling aggro or stacking mez effects.
Powersets matter more than ATs, here.
Quote:
I'd say how the powersets are used are more important, but your point stands too.
|
Originally Posted by A Man In Black
Defenders have an easier time softcapping defenses, and get a sizeable damage buff that they lose when teaming.
On the other hand, Corruptors get access to a blast set with no mitigation but extra damage, perfect for teaming, where other people are handling aggro or stacking mez effects. Powersets matter more than ATs, here. |
Thanks for the great replies, everyone!
I can see that Kinetics is likely not the best point of comparison. 
I'm also embarrassed to say that I've never played a Traps toon! It sounds encouraging, so I'll give a Traps Defender a go this weekend.
Quote:
I'd say the powersets chosen, would be more of a factor than the above blanket statement.As there are certain defender combos that would solo better than certain corruptor combos.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I always put it simply.
Defender: Better on teams. Corruptor: Better at solo. Both can team, both can solo. They just do one thing better than the other. |
Even in cases with some reversed powersets, I'm not sure there would be anything more than a marginal difference. Some people swear by corruptors, others like defenders. To me, they are both my favorite AT's that bring what they bring to the table. I've solo'd and teamed with both my corruptors and defenders, both AT's are outstanding at what they do.
Defenders can solo missions,TFs, AVs, GMs, just fine.
Heck, even an empathy can solo the vile, impossible Trapdoor!
Quote:
True. However I find A Corrs damage is more useful in solo and a defenders buffs/debuffs/heals are more useful when on a team.|
Originally Posted by Alekhine
I'd say the powersets chosen, would be more of a factor than the above blanket statement.As there are certain defender combos that would solo better than certain corruptor combos.
Even in cases with some reversed powersets, I'm not sure there would be anything more than a marginal difference. Some people swear by corruptors, others like defenders. To me, they are both my favorite AT's that bring what they bring to the table. I've solo'd and teamed with both my corruptors and defenders, both AT's are outstanding at what they do. Defenders can solo missions,TFs, AVs, GMs, just fine. Heck, even an empathy can solo the vile, impossible Trapdoor! |
Note that I never said defenders CAN'T solo, just that Corruptors solo better.
Either way I wouldn't hesitate to put either AT on any team I'm making. Heck, both.
^_^
The numbers on buffs and debuffs may be very different.
If you take FF for instence, Bubblex2, dispertion and Maneuvre caps team at SO level on a FF Fender, it doesnt on a MM.
Sonic, Cold, Traps also have very higher numbers on Fenders. 20% res vs 15% on Sonic is a LOT, the difference is actually more important than on the damage potencial.
Now some sets actually feels "better" or lets say "less worste" on Corr/MM/Trollers, like Kin, Rad or Empathy.
Quote:
Honestly that's just not my experience in-game.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's really just a difference in play style. The corruptor is a support secondary. He's there to do damage, and he'll buff when he wants to. Where it is common for a kin defender to keep his team SB'd, I am surprised if I see a kin corruptor who does the same.
|
IME the classic redside playstyle was more self sufficient then blueside, but there was no lack of teamwork.
On a half decent team the corr/MMs fully understood their powers and used them effectively, whether buff or debuff. You don't complete MoBarracuda if your team is lazy or selfish with their support powers.
I strongly agree with Linea Alba about some powersets being noticeably better on def and some on corr.
But honestly if someone is a decent player and uses their powers appropriately, you'll never notice a few percentage points one way or the other. A sonic/sonic corr is a gigantic contributor to the team.
CoH is a pretty easy game. Honestly I like it that way. I can play a ninja/poison and revel in the awesome pet animations and not die... even with the gimpest MM build in the game. If the game was harder we'd all be forced into a handful of cookie cutter builds and rigid team roles just to survive.
IMHO most buff/debuff sets are grotesquely, gloriously overpowered when used intelligently. You've been on all def/corr teams, it's just unfair to the mobs.
I'm agnostic on ATs but I'm a huge fan of some powersets. I love playing Dark Miasma, and I love having seeing them join my teams. Ditto traps and storm. I don't enjoy throwing buffs so I don't play some powersets, but I sure love teaming with a cold or thermal or emp or sonic.
Play what feels good to you. Embrace the powerset, use it to its full, vast potential. Kill skulz.
ob. flamebait -- a /kin 'troller, there's a toon unlikely to SB you.
Hi,
I tend to enjoy playing support roles, and when the game started, my first toon was an Empathy Defender, which was incredibly fun, then. After enhancement diversification, I switched mostly to Kinetics for Defenders and started moving towards Controllers and a Tank or two.
Eventually, after villains were introduced, I made an Ice/Kin Corruptor to play with some evil-minded friends. At level 50, she blew away my Kin/Ice Defender. The increased damage made her more versatile and any difference in buff strength went unnoticed. (Also, Hibernate from Leviathan Mastery was very useful to escape aggro after FS+Ice Storm+Blizzard.... yum!)
These days, with it possible to switch sides and leveling being rather quick, making the period of time when Defenders get their powers earlier seem shorter, why do you like to make Defenders rather than Corruptors other than for theme? (I still don't feel quite right playing a Corruptor...)