Fire/Fire - No Clue
I think /fire gives up some survivability for damage. I know it has lower resists than /elec. My fire/fire brute can be squishy sometimes, but it kills things fast enough that I dont really worry about it.
I normally play support toons - controllers and defenders seem to sit better with me.
Anyway I thought I would celebrate the server list merge by doing something different and create my first scrapper. I had a concept in mind for a fire/fire scrapper so off I went and since I'm EU by nature I thought I would have a bash on the Freedom server. |
Well, you sure picked a doozy for your first scrapper. You're pretty much defenseless on a fire/fire, just a seething mass of damage and MOAR DAMAGE.
Maybe you wanna try something a little less...crunchy? For your first go?
I think its because I normally play support that I have discovered that I have absolutely no idea how to slot this character. Everytime I try a new build on mids it always seem to fall short. I am looking for a damage dealing monster that can stand up to just about anything - groups and AV's alike (if a fire/fire can handle an AV which I have no idea if he can or not but I assume he can). I normally play solo but he should be able to go into a group if I feel like it. |
With that description, may I recommend a fire/fire tank? You can keep your concept intact, and get some MUCH needed durability, and I promise you, the damage is still quite good. Insane, even.
Damage is clearly not an issue. Both Fire melee and Fiery Aura have great damage dealing powers (is Burn worth taking as a damage dealing power by the way?) |
YES.
My issue seems more to be with survivability. |
I am assuming that if I slot for recharge and aim for perma-hasten then thats a good start - as healing flames and consume will be up more frequently. But is that enough? Getting soft-capped defence as well as perma-hasten seems a tough order so should I go for a HP Regeneration or Resistance instead? I am not afraid of expensive builds - I like a challenge! |
There's challenge, and then there's madness. I do like your crazy.
But I urge you, take your ideas and do the tanker, you will be happier with the result. Everything on that list is not possible with a fire scrapper. Sorry.
Please note I am NOT asking for builds - I like to figure these things out for myself but can someone PLEASE point me in the right direction? PS - whats a good APP? Blaze fits concept but body looks nice. |
Most of all, have fun!
For AV solo'ing, do you mind popping a small luck? 32.5% s/l/e/n is pretty do-able.
I skipped burn on my fire scrap, ymmv. Without a taunt component, it "breaks the will" (or something, brain fart) of the baddies and still causes flight.
For AV solo'ing, do you mind popping a small luck? 32.5% s/l/e/n is pretty do-able.
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Yes indeed, if you are dead-set on a fire/fire scrapper, this is a much better goal, and just be a pill-popper.
I skipped burn on my fire scrap, ymmv. |
Without a taunt component, it "breaks the will" (or something, brain fart) of the baddies and still causes flight. |
Killling them before they GET away, however, works wonders! On my claw/fire, focus got a lot of use dropping runners.
The majority of damage from burn comes from the initial pbaoe burst, anyways. It's an amazing power and not one that I would want to skip
Thanks for everyones response so far. I've got my Scrapper to level 10 (playing him on and off) and so far he's fun to play - even without some of the hard hitting powers. I've cobbled together a build which kind of does the job - recharge is just short of perma-hasten and defence is lower than I wanted but resistance is reasonable and so is HP regeneration. I dont think he's an AV killer but big mobs should melt reasonably quickly
Yes its expensive but I dont mind investing in time and cash if the toon is good. I would welcome any comments anyone has on my scrapper.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Summer-Knight: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Sword
- (A) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (3) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (15) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (15) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (17) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (A) Reactive Armor - Endurance
- (5) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (42) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (42) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (3) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (19) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (19) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (A) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (5) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (21) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (21) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (23) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (A) Triage - Heal/Recharge
- (7) Triage - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (37) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge
- (A) Ragnarok - Damage
- (9) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
- (9) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (25) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
- (25) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (11) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (11) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
- (42) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (13) Recharge Reduction IO
- (13) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Celerity - +Stealth
- (A) Reactive Armor - Endurance
- (43) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (43) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (43) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff
- (46) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (46) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception
- (A) Energy Manipulator - EndMod
- (39) Energy Manipulator - EndMod/Recharge
- (39) Energy Manipulator - Chance to Stun
- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (23) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (27) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (27) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (29) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Absolute Amazement - Stun
- (39) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge
- (40) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
- (40) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Recharge
- (40) Absolute Amazement - Endurance/Stun
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
- (34) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (34) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (36) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (36) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (A) Armageddon - Damage
- (29) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
- (31) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (31) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
- (31) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
- (A) Reactive Armor - Endurance
- (37) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (37) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (46) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Hecatomb - Damage
- (33) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
- (33) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (33) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Triage - Heal/Endurance
- (45) Triage - Heal/Recharge
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Rebirth Radial Epiphany
Level 50: Paralytic Radial Flawless Interface
------------
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (36) Miracle - +Recovery
- (A) Empty
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
If you are looking at /fire only for conceptual reasons, you could do /inv /regen or /wp and turn off the visual effects (I think these 3 allow it). Then add a fire costume aura later.
Fire/fire/fire is a wicked aoe beast though
I need to put my foot down here. /Fire Scrappers are not delicate, fragile, squishy or in any way weak. They may not be super defence power houses, but I've taken my own Fire/Fire through some unbelievable fights and she came out no worse for wear.
The key to survivability, I've found (other than plain killing things) is to not depend on JUST Healing Flames or JUST your shields or, indeed, JUST on both. Burn is a very powerful attack now that it delivers 3/4 of its damage upfront, but it also still has an Afraid effect, which you can use for mitigation. Finally, Rise of the Phoenix is made to be used.
The one thing you NEED to accept on a Fire/Fire Scrapper is that defeat is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, you get some debt and a slap on the wrist, but in return you get to deal massive damage and return to life with nearly full stats. The only time defeat is really scary is if you fall and Rise of the Phoenix hasn't recharged yet. Beyond that, it don't matter how often you fall. Long as you can keep getting up, you ain't beat.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I need to put my foot down here. /Fire Scrappers are not delicate, fragile, squishy or in any way weak.
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I know there's no data chunk, but have you looked over the build posted above? Here's a sample: Two sets of five-slotted Obliteration. That's a crapton of defense skipped for the sake of two slots.
But hey, people can play what they like, and as long as he's having fun, more power to him!
They may not be super defence power houses, but I've taken my own Fire/Fire through some unbelievable fights and she came out no worse for wear. |
And that's fine!
The key to survivability, I've found (other than plain killing things) is to not depend on JUST Healing Flames or JUST your shields or, indeed, JUST on both. Burn is a very powerful attack now that it delivers 3/4 of its damage upfront, but it also still has an Afraid effect, which you can use for mitigation. Finally, Rise of the Phoenix is made to be used. |
The one thing you NEED to accept on a Fire/Fire Scrapper is that defeat is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, you get some debt and a slap on the wrist, but in return you get to deal massive damage and return to life with nearly full stats. The only time defeat is really scary is if you fall and Rise of the Phoenix hasn't recharged yet. Beyond that, it don't matter how often you fall. Long as you can keep getting up, you ain't beat. |
I personally find defeats on a scrapper annoying, unless I'm doing something crazy. The OP may be different, which is why we both get to play the game the way we want.
Most of all, have fun! I'm just...cautious...about how much fun there is to be had in this playstyle.
I have made my peace with Rise of the Phoenix, and actually find something to like about it. In my Fire/Fire Guide, I note something along the lines of how it's a sign of how tough you are: bad guys just can't keep you down.
That said, there is no reason a Fire/Fire melee character should be dying constantly, or using Rise of the Phoenix often. Adding in Tough and some goodly amounts of defense makes Fiery Aura plenty resilient, and gives you plenty of time to burn your way through a swath of foes.
I do not have a high level Fire/Fire Scrapper, but I have played similar style resist sets on Brutes and Scrapper (my DA Scrapper is at 48 currently, and I have an Elec Brute Alpha'd out), and the story is the same there as it is fore my Fiery Aura tank. Up your resists as best you can, add in decent defense, and you are good to go with that heal you have.
Little late to comment on the build, but I've never particularly cared for Breath of Fire. It's a short range cone, and with Burn's revamp, FSC and Burn are more than enough AOE for me. My Tank just melts most minions and LTs with that combo, so I can only imagine a Scrapper is going to go even further there. I like reserving those slots and power pick for other things, but I know some people like Breath of Fire.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Level 53 fire/fire scrapper here with all 5 incarnate powers at tier 4, and out of 7+ years it is my favorite toon, even though my favorite AT is defender.
Yes, you will be squishy for awhile. Your job is to destroy everything as fast as possible. 6 slot those healing flames ASAP.
Take Burn? Absolutely. Samuel is wrong anyway, there is no fear component in it anymore. Mobs run from burn when they get close to death just like they do with any other attack in the game. Most of the time I run up hitting build up, drop burn, and half the minions just die from that + blazing aura. Follow up with Fire Sword Circle and there is little left to mop up.
The damage is insane. I don't make toons in Mids but this is a shot of the management screen: FlintEastwood
I went for damage and regen but he has a good chunk of acc thrown in. I have procs in every damage power as I love them to death. I went for spiritual/pyronic/reactive/seers/barrier, and what you can't see is 3 slotted Health.
Fiery Aura is not meant to go toe-to-toe with AVs. Purples are there for those moments. My character probably looks like a mess to purists out there but the damage I pour out is just crazy, and should technically be the most damaging scrapper combo in the entire game, including shield.
My wife and I had huge grins on our faces one day, where a BAF leader made sure I was on the adds team simply because the day before on another BAF run he saw the following: I would bounce from team to team during the final phase and whatever team I was on would quickly overtake the other, back and forth.
If a character like that sounds fun to you, feel free to ask me anything. The only part I have limited knowledge on is how fiery embrace's fire component gets calculated. When I started the character, it was still a better version of build up.
EDIT: I have to agree with Grey Pilgrim - breath of fire sucks for melee - it is nothing like the one in fire blast, at all. It is tiny, and only hits twice, and of course you have to back out of the enemy group to use it properly.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
i'd maybe drop the psi resist from temp protection to 5 slot healing flames with doctored wounds, and move 2 slots (at least one) from combat jumping into fiery embrace.
i'm running 35% s/l, 32% e/n and it's plenty sturdy. solo's rikti pylons with no insps, etc. a little bit of defense goes a long way, and often team buffs will push you to softcap anyway.
Samuel is wrong anyway, there is no fear component in it anymore. Mobs run from burn when they get close to death just like they do with any other attack in the game.
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But again - the bulk of Burn's damage is up-front, so it works either way. Now if only the same could have happened to Ignite...
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah there is no avoid in Burn anymore, and I agree that Ignite shouldn't be immune to this change. They must want Ignite to have fear pretty bad though - last I checked it was a mag 50 fear or something ridiculous.
Like I said, they run out of Burn just like they run with anything else in the game that doesn't have avoid.
Notes
Burn - changed power substantially:
Added initial hit damage
Removed Fear effect
Decreased tick rate by 4 (now ticks every 0.8 seconds, instead of 0.2 seconds)
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
The description of what happens for Scrappers with Burn is still odd to me, though. I know my tank does have Gauntlet to keep foes reined in, but if they run away in fear, they usually will step away and then come back... foes usually don't even do that on my Tank. Did the old Burn cause a fear effect in foes that you could see using one of the analyzer temp powers? If so, people could test with them to see if something is up, and bug it.
Not sure if that will be enough, since bugs seem to sit around quite often, but it'd be a start.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
With the old version, they would all instantly run the minute you clicked it. Now they just run when they would normally run away from the regular AI rules from ordinary attacks, like brawl.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
"Patch" powers that enemies avoid actually have their own unique effect, at least in name: "Avoid." This is as distinct from the "Afraid" effect in older-style fear powers and the "Terrorized" effect that fear powers were changed to when PvP was introduced. I'm not sure if "Avoid" is even a power effect so much as an AI call, as I've seen AVs and Monsters succumb to it. Remember Leandro's video of Nosferatu running away from his Mastermind like a Benny Hill chase? That.
The patch notes did say that the "Fear" effect was removed (even if that effect was always listed as "Avoid"), but as I said before - my experience suggests that there's still something in there. I don't know if it's a power effect or just an AI quirk to do with continuous effect patches, but the AI will still try to avoid the patch. NPCs can be taunted into it and they will indeed stay, but deploying a Burn patch in a dense group of NPCs and doing nothing else will cause them to scatter, whereas standing in a dense group of NPCs with Blazing Aura going will not. I don't know what's causing it, I just know that it's there. I developed a habit on my Fire/Fire Scrapper to drop Burn last, so that enemies could be killed by its initial damage tick and not run away. Deploying it first caused them to scatter in all directions for about 10 feet, putting them out of range of even Fire Sword Circle.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The problem is, I can't ever get Black Scorpion to comment on anything, unlike Castle. He almost never posts on the boards period. He won't answer PMs either, at least to me.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
"Patch" powers that enemies avoid actually have their own unique effect, at least in name: "Avoid." This is as distinct from the "Afraid" effect in older-style fear powers and the "Terrorized" effect that fear powers were changed to when PvP was introduced. I'm not sure if "Avoid" is even a power effect so much as an AI call, as I've seen AVs and Monsters succumb to it. Remember Leandro's video of Nosferatu running away from his Mastermind like a Benny Hill chase? That.
The patch notes did say that the "Fear" effect was removed (even if that effect was always listed as "Avoid"), but as I said before - my experience suggests that there's still something in there. I don't know if it's a power effect or just an AI quirk to do with continuous effect patches, but the AI will still try to avoid the patch. NPCs can be taunted into it and they will indeed stay, but deploying a Burn patch in a dense group of NPCs and doing nothing else will cause them to scatter, whereas standing in a dense group of NPCs with Blazing Aura going will not. I don't know what's causing it, I just know that it's there. I developed a habit on my Fire/Fire Scrapper to drop Burn last, so that enemies could be killed by its initial damage tick and not run away. Deploying it first caused them to scatter in all directions for about 10 feet, putting them out of range of even Fire Sword Circle. |
The problem is, I can't ever get Black Scorpion to comment on anything, unlike Castle. He almost never posts on the boards period. He won't answer PMs either, at least to me.
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The monthly developer letters are nice, don't get me wrong, but I feel less in touch with the dev team in the past year or so. I don't really have time to sit around and watch Ustream, either, but can usually pick up on the forums at random times when my schedule allows it. I guess I also like the things to be more informal on top of what we are getting now.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Yeah, it's like something happened right when BABs posted that he wouldn't be tweeting anymore. I was like 'uh oh.'
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
If it is something official and top down, I don't care how much it helps Paragon and and NC Soft to cover their butts, I feel less connected to the game and the developers, which I definitely saw as a plus. We have some nice official threads, and I still get a kick out of what we can see of the dev team, but I do see less of them.
I also don't know if BAB got stretched too thin or if it was a new official mandate about posting at the time, but I do miss the days of more posts. I also hate the move to Facebook and Twitter for some things, as I really do feel like official stuff should be on the City of Heroes page and the forums. I don't mind them using those in addition to their official page and forums, but I know some info is passed out there.
The other great thing about dev posting is that it was more in depth than what you get in articles out there, most of the time. Some of the dev diary stuff on MMORPG.com can go more in depth, but not usually.
Oh well. I still like the game, but I do lament the change in posting and connectedness to players.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
MySpace and Facebook are completely different from Twitter. Twitter is great - I get to talk to people that are in the business, and even celebrities who reply directly to me. Good stuff.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
I have to agree with the general premise here. I didn't always like what BABs and Castle had to say, especially about controversial issues, but I still appreciated them saying it. I got an idea of what both of them liked and disliked, how they operated, what they could and couldn't do, what they would and wouldn't do and it made me feel like the development team cared. I mean, hell! They care enough to post on the forums to explain a technical issue AT 1 IN THE MORNING! I'd subscribe to game just for that!
Now it feels like we're being run by what you'd get if EA Games and SOE had a child, and that sold its soul to the devil. The only people we ever hear from are a team of community reps who, while polite and informative, come off more like bouncers for the development team, and developer decisions come off like divine intervention. "The devs move in mysterious ways" should not be a legitimate answer to any question, but it is.
The studio used to deal with people directly and explain their actions. Now they hide behind community reps and act like they're giving us what we "want," even if we don't yet realise we want it. To hell with that.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I normally play support toons - controllers and defenders seem to sit better with me.
Anyway I thought I would celebrate the server list merge by doing something different and create my first scrapper. I had a concept in mind for a fire/fire scrapper so off I went and since I'm EU by nature I thought I would have a bash on the Freedom server.
I think its because I normally play support that I have discovered that I have absolutely no idea how to slot this character. Everytime I try a new build on mids it always seem to fall short. I am looking for a damage dealing monster that can stand up to just about anything - groups and AV's alike (if a fire/fire can handle an AV which I have no idea if he can or not but I assume he can). I normally play solo but he should be able to go into a group if I feel like it.
Damage is clearly not an issue. Both Fire melee and Fiery Aura have great damage dealing powers (is Burn worth taking as a damage dealing power by the way?)
My issue seems more to be with survivability. I am assuming that if I slot for recharge and aim for perma-hasten then thats a good start - as healing flames and consume will be up more frequently. But is that enough? Getting soft-capped defence as well as perma-hasten seems a tough order so should I go for a HP Regeneration or Resistance instead? I am not afraid of expensive builds - I like a challenge!
Please note I am NOT asking for builds - I like to figure these things out for myself but can someone PLEASE point me in the right direction?
PS - whats a good APP? Blaze fits concept but body looks nice.