+Def Vs -ToHit
By
Biowraith,
Posted on: 2011-05-11 14:31 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
-tohit is almost completely useless against AVs/GMs/+4s etc. +def isnt.
I still like dark more myself though, reapplying shields every few minutes is a *****.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
In theory, -ToHit and +Def are exactly equal. You need 45% Defense to soft-cap, but -45% ToHit will have the same effect.
In practice, enemies can gain extra resistance to -ToHit debuffs based on their level, classification, or probably just by wearing blue. Stacking powers that say they do -45% ToHit probably won't actually bottom out the accuracy of the enemies who you'll most want to bottom out.
That said, both are nice, and there's more to both sets than just the +Def/-ToHit, so you may want to judge your pick on that as well.
Quote:
Or go FF/Dark and have both.
|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
How much -ToHit does it take to get the same survivability as soft capping defense? I see the advantage of def being that you dont have to actually hit the enemy first, and tohit being beneficial for the rest of the team. Specifically Im deciding between bubbles or dark. Dark looks like more fun so Ill probably use that, but Im curious how they compare.
|
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
-346.15% ToHit should bottom out even a lv54 AV. Of course, if you're simply fighting regular +4s, rather than AVs, you should only need -93.75% ToHit. |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
In practice, enemies can gain extra resistance to -ToHit debuffs based on their level, classification, or probably just by wearing blue. Stacking powers that say they do -45% ToHit probably won't actually bottom out the accuracy of the enemies who you'll most want to bottom out.
|
Dark Miasma should be able to accomplish the latter fairly simply.Against +0s, -ToHit is equivalent to +Def
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
-Tohit needed for a 54 AV doesnt sound quite right. Thought it was more like 665%
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
-346.15% ToHit should bottom out even a lv54 AV. Of course, if you're simply fighting regular +4s, rather than AVs, you should only need -93.75% ToHit.
Dark Miasma should be able to accomplish the latter fairly simply.Against +0s, -ToHit is equivalent to +Def |
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Quote:
Derp, I was only calculating AV resistance. Forgot to include purple patch for the AV. Lesse... should be about -721.15%, then.
|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
-Tohit needed for a 54 AV doesnt sound quite right. Thought it was more like 665%
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Derp, I was only calculating AV resistance. Forgot to include purple patch for the AV. Lesse... should be about -721.15%, then.
|
Are you figuring the caster is level shifted?
Hmmm, thats pretty rank numbers. A /Dark MM, probably the strongest debuffer for the Archetype when it comes to -ToHit... can generally do around -60 before slotting. So your not going to get anything close to those numbers. You can probably ramp it up to close to -100 if you really press the issue.
Looking at these numbers a little bit, trying to wrap my head around it. According to the various wiki's.. Arch Villains at 54 will resist at 87%. So if I understand, for simplicity (and practicality I guess) my -100 -ToHit becomes -13 -ToHit. Not very good actually. But it does mean your 'softcap' against AV's is around DEF 32, which is vastly easier to get than 45.
If that math is correct... is that how it works?
Quote:
No. Those are numbers for a lv50 fighting a lv54 AV.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Are you figuring the caster is level shifted?
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
The Defense softcap is based on the To Hit of your foe. The vast majority of critters in the game have a 50% To Hit >>> 50% - 45% = 5% and that 5% is 'clamped' meaning you can't drive the number any lower (such as by having 100% defense). It's considered 'soft' because if the critter has any sort of To Hit bonus (relative rare occurance) such as from Build Up or Leadership powers then its base to hit is no longer 50% but something higher which effectively moves your needed defense to whatever amount is 5% less than their actual To Hit.|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Hmmm, thats pretty rank numbers. A /Dark MM, probably the strongest debuffer for the Archetype when it comes to -ToHit... can generally do around -60 before slotting. So your not going to get anything close to those numbers. You can probably ramp it up to close to -100 if you really press the issue.
Looking at these numbers a little bit, trying to wrap my head around it. According to the various wiki's.. Arch Villains at 54 will resist at 87%. So if I understand, for simplicity (and practicality I guess) my -100 -ToHit becomes -13 -ToHit. Not very good actually. But it does mean your 'softcap' against AV's is around DEF 32, which is vastly easier to get than 45. If that math is correct... is that how it works? |
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
Thats all well and good, but it has nothing to do with my question.
I'm not asking about the 'softcap' specifically, I understand that mechanic just fine. Its specifically resistances.
My question:
Quote:
Let me re-phrase that to be more clear... if I do a -100 -ToHit, and I'm fighting an ArchVillain who resists that at 87%... that would mean I only do -13 -ToHit right? Which would mean assuming the normal circumstances.. having a defense of 32 would floor his ToHit at 5. | Looking at these numbers a little bit, trying to wrap my head around it. According to the various wiki's.. Arch Villains at 54 will resist at 87%. So if I understand, for simplicity (and practicality I guess) my -100 -ToHit becomes -13 -ToHit. Not very good actually. But it does mean your 'softcap' against AV's is around DEF 32, which is vastly easier to get than 45. |
But thats assuming I'm understanding how the resistances work in the first place, which is my question. Is there any funny math involved in debuff resistances, or is it a straightforward % off like I have above?
Cheers!
Quote:
I'm pretty sure this is correct. 87% debuff resistance is just a straight 87% off the tohit value, and the result can be "added" to +def to get the 45% (more if they have +tohit) needed to floor the target's tohit against you.|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Let me re-phrase that to be more clear... if I do a -100 -ToHit, and I'm fighting an ArchVillain who resists that at 87%... that would mean I only do -13 -ToHit right? Which would mean assuming the normal circumstances.. having a defense of 32 would floor his ToHit at 5.
But thats assuming I'm understanding how the resistances work in the first place, which is my question. Is there any funny math involved in debuff resistances, or is it a straightforward % off like I have above? |
However there's also the modifier due to level difference, and that applies on top of the debuff resistance. See http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch
For a +4 foe that level difference reduces your debuffs to 48% of their normal value, before any debuff resistances come into play. So as a level 50 player vs a 54 AV, assuming no level shifts on you and no +tohit bonuses on the AV, your 100 -ToHit is reduced to 48 -ToHit due to the level difference. Then the debuff resistances reduce that to 6.24 -ToHit (48*0.13). So you'd actually need 38.76 defense to floor that AV's chance to hit you.
(Note: one exception to the level difference modifier is Interface debuffs - they're still affected by debuff resistance, but they bypass the level difference (or at least Diamagnetic -ToHit does, I haven't tested the others))
Finally don't forget that the AV will get accuracy modifiers both for being an AV (1.5) and being 4 levels higher than you (1.4), and those apply after the ToHit math takes place. So if you get it floored it's actual chance to hit you would be 10.5% (5% * 1.4 * 1.5). There's not really anything you can do about that though.
(Disclaimer: I'm fairly sure about all this, but I don't use or explore it as much as some players so it's possible I've misunderstood some aspects, or botched some of the maths. But it's probably right ;p)
How much -ToHit does it take to get the same survivability as soft capping defense? I see the advantage of def being that you dont have to actually hit the enemy first, and tohit being beneficial for the rest of the team. Specifically Im deciding between bubbles or dark. Dark looks like more fun so Ill probably use that, but Im curious how they compare.