Please explain this double standard to me (regarding mortals in comics)
By
ApolloSteele,
Posted on: 2011-05-09 19:12 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
RULES! my good boy, RULES!!!!
so, let me differ from some of the opinions here when i say that the "fan" groups of these two genres quite often have a large amount of overlap, and are, in essence, the same group.
the SUBJECT is what differs. let me 'splain, you take a fan base of relatively nerdy (intelligent, and socially inept to various degrees) guys (the female fans of both genres rarely argue over these things) and you pit their great loves against one another. For Fantasy we will assume the vast majority of it is D&D based, as it usually is, or if it isn't, is equated back to it's closest counterpart in D&D, and therefore it has RULES, it has stats, it has HP and attacks and armor class, and defined spells and abilities that have numeric values, and limits and restrictions. Now, in superdom, we have arbitrary values, which vary by generation of that hero, which writer is currently writing, and which bad guy he is currently fighting, and for the most part, don't exist as stats for us. YES, i know there were and are superhero roleplaying games (FASERIP FOR LIFE BABY!!!!!!!) but, that was never really used as canon, and none of the games REALLY captured the granular detail that D&D did.
so, superhero arguments are opinion vs opinion, D&D most likely is "rules lawyer vs rules lawyer" (and if you ever played D&D for more then 10 minutes in a group larger then just yourself, you HAVE met a rules lawyer, every group has one). D&D gives us a definitive answer to what we can only speculate on in comics...... well, it's all make believe, but lets not bring that into this discussion.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
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Actually, I'd define time and effort to be whatever time and effort the writer puts into making the story work. To make a fight or encounter work in a story, there has to be enough believability that whatever macguffin the writer uses will get the job done, and in a realistic way. If Batman is using something to get him to the level of whatever he is facing, it has to be believable.|
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
It's the difference between time and effort. There's much more time and effort involved in reading a 300+ page book with no pictures than there is reading a comic book that's 20+ pages. This extreme reduction in time and effort means that there are a great deal more people that will read the entire story who don't like it. If one doesn't like the 300+ page book, they stop long before they get to the point where Drizzt and Wulfgar defeat the white dragon.
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It also depends on the world, and staying true to the rules of those worlds. In Tolkien's world, for instance, things are pretty consistent. Not much can take on a Balrog except something of the same level of power, ie, Gandalf. Tolkien's big fights also benefit from the commensurate cost of taking on said foe: defeating Melkor in The Silmarillion required supernatural help that changed the shape of the world. Defeating a Balrog or dragon often means a lot of death or damage in the process. Just facing Sauron means the death of mythic heroes that really aren't equaled by any in later ages.
I know there are some that will quibble with Tolkien, but what works for his big fights is that they are believable and consistent in the world he created, and require an immense cost and effort, making them more believable to us.
To go further with your example, Bubba, comics creators also have much less room to make their story believable, so it's easier for them to fall into obvious macguffins like kryptonite always being around for people to use against Superman. A good writer can make that kryptonite use believable, but it is easier for the props and wires to be seen in a comic book, versus a more in depth medium like a book (you see the same issues in book to movie translations). Obviously it's possible, but there's a lot less room for development.
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Only if the script calls for it. Sure, the Hulk can jump insane distances, but even assuming he can jump interplanetary or interstellar distances (and the concept of being able to achieve some multiple of light speed simply by pushing off an object is brain hurting) good luck aiming your jump at a target you can't even see while compensating for gravitational forces and orbital vectors. Of course if the story calls for it Hulk can probably jump through time and dimensions by his sheer hulkitude. By writer's fiat it's also guaranteed that any object Hulk encounters after having been hurled through space will have the means for returning to Earth somewhere nearby. |
Originally Posted by Dark One
Problem with that is that Hulk will eventually hit something or be grabbed up by a gravitational field and he'll jump back to Earth even more honked off.
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Originally Posted by schismatrix
only if the script calls for it. Sure, the hulk can jump insane distances, but even assuming he can jump interplanetary or interstellar distances (and the concept of being able to achieve some multiple of light speed simply by pushing off an object is brain hurting) good luck aiming your jump at a target you can't even see while compensating for gravitational forces and orbital vectors. Of course if the story calls for it hulk can probably jump through time and dimensions by his sheer hulkitude. By writer's fiat it's also guaranteed that any object hulk encounters after having been hurled through space will have the means for returning to earth somewhere nearby.
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lol.
Psychiatrists say that 1 of 4 people are mentally ill. Check 3 friends. If they are okay, you're it.
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Personally, I don't necessarily have a problem when a mere mortal manages to pull off something that he should totally not be able to do-- so long as it is written in a way that's consistent with the character and circumstances seem to clearly favor the hero.
For instance, a couple decades ago Spider-Man managed to best Firelord, one of the heralds of Galactus, in a fight. Now normally he shouldn't have had a PRAYER of doing that, but it was written in such a way that I was entertained by it and bought into the circumstances of that PARTICULAR fight Spidey being able to pull off a win.
On the other hand, when the character CONSISTENTLY does that then it starts to lose its entertainment factor-- at least for me.
Batman ALWAYS does that. It's become his superpower.
Remember when the Silver Age Legion came back and Batman got into a fight with Karate Kid? Val's supposed to be the best hand to hand combatant in the galaxy, a master of martial arts that haven't even been invented or SEEN on Earth.
And Batman takes him down.
I would have been much more entertained if Batman had LOST that fight just because you can expect Batman to go up against any character DC Comics has and he's going to pull out a win 'cause he's Batman and he's hot right now.
Batman wins against impossible odds so often that it's become a cliche.
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The main difference is that fantasy stories tend to have a beginning, middle, and end, whereas superhero comics are ongoing. Having a mortal hero pull off an unlikely victory against a godlike foe ONCE is one thing. Frodo eked out a win against Sauron by the skin of his teeth, and then sailed off into the sunset. Batman does it every other month. He's punked Darkseid a half-dozen times already, plus multiple victories against Superman and countless other foes who were way out of his league. After a while, it starts to strain credibility. Not to mention how silly it looks when he then turns around and struggles to beat mooks like the Riddler or the Penguin.
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Could you elaborate? I'm not up on comics (haven't read them since I was about 12 years old), but you piqued my interest so I did some minor poking around on the internet. All I could find were various allusions to a fight in the Batcave where Batman needed Black Lightning's help to defeat a disoriented and amnesiac Val Armorr. Justice League #8 is it?|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Batman ALWAYS does that. It's become his superpower.
Remember when the Silver Age Legion came back and Batman got into a fight with Karate Kid? Val's supposed to be the best hand to hand combatant in the galaxy, a master of martial arts that haven't even been invented or SEEN on Earth. And Batman takes him down. |
I'm not saying you're wrong, either about the specific fight in question or your over-arching point; I just find some of this stuff interesting, in a from-the-sidelines kinda way.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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But I've noticed that when their counterparts in comic book universes do the same things against beings of similar power, people howl and complain.
In fantasy, mortality is often presented as a special thing. Mortals die, but they also experience highs that immortals never do. Mortals become mythic; immortals simply endure. So a mortal vs. immortal match is more even than you might otherwise think.
In superhero comics, everyone is already mythic. So any matchup becomes a strict comparison of powerlevel -- modulated by the requirements of the story, of course. The needs of the story explains why Batman didn't get vaporized by Darkseid, but no amount of plot armor could help Batman win the encounter.
Different genres have different rules, and tropes mutate when crossing genre boundaries. What applies in fairyland does not always work in Gotham, and vice versa.
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