Core Rebirth seems really weak!
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-05-07 16:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Explanation for the new guy: [potential new version of] Core Rebirth buffs you so that healing powers will heal you for more than normal.|
Originally Posted by Edana
An unresistable healing resistance debuff as a buff? It's a nice idea for certain but I'd hate to have to explain that one to a new guy.
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I quite like the idea, improves the power in a slightly more creative way than just increasing the numbers on it.
Although I'd also be happy with a straight increase in the numbers - I don't have a major issue with some characters losing buff to the hp cap; those players will usually be building just for that so will know not to take the Core path, and eh, everyone gets hit with buffs that don't help their particular character from time to time.
This is really good info from ppls with experience. It really helps the new folks before we cash in those hard earned threads.
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This. The hp buff is just weak. At least make it auto hit the cap for toons. I like the debuffing heal resistance idea. Heck, add a resistance to *all* debuffs slows, -dam, -debuff defence, -dam rez, -acc, etc. Would really help as a reactionary power to "climb out of the pit" of a mess of stacked debuffs.
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Originally Posted by RadioSilence
This is really good info from ppls with experience. It really helps the new folks before we cash in those hard earned threads.
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Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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That is only true for the short duration part of the buff. Should they lower Barrier's buffs because the short duration part is over the 75% resist cap most ATs have?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Most ATs will hit the HP cap before they run out of +HPs that way. A lot of the buff would be wasted.
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Simply tripling the +HPs will indeed make the short duration part cause many people to hit the cap, just like the other Destiny buffs. I find that to be a desired goal of my suggestion. It will also make the part of the buff that lasts longer actually meaningful, another desired goal of the suggestion.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That's what Ageless does.|
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
This. The hp buff is just weak. At least make it auto hit the cap for toons. I like the debuffing heal resistance idea. Heck, add a resistance to *all:* slows, -dam, -debuff defence, dam rez, -acc, etc.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
That is only true for the short duration part of the buff. Should they lower Barrier's buffs because the short duration part is over the 75% resist cap most ATs have?
Simply tripling the +HPs will indeed make the short duration part cause many people to hit the cap, just like the other Destiny buffs. I find that to be a desired goal of my suggestion. It will also make the part of the buff that lasts longer actually meaningful, another desired goal of the suggestion. |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Vanden already answered this, but I'm going to give a slightly more detailed answer.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
its only a 10% increase of the target does not resist that debuff at all, which almost any AV lvl foe will have a good bit of normal resists that this will hardly effect them
think of reichsman who has 90% resist on all dmg, the -10% resist is resisted by 90% thus only increasing overall DPS by 1% which is near negligible |
The way the math for debuff resistance works, an X% DR debuff is always X% more total damage applied after resistances are accounted for.
Something with 90% damage resistance debuffed 10% is ends up with 89% damage resistance. (10% debuff is reduced by 90% to a 1% debuff, and 90% - 1% = 89%) Before, the foe was only actually hurt by 10% of the damage applied to it, now it's damaged by 11% of the damage applied to it. 11 is 110% of 10, meaning the foe is taking an extra 10% total damage.
Edit: As more generic proof of the above, the formula for how much damage is admitted past some level of damage resistance is given by this formula:
DamAdmitted = DamApplied * (1 - (DamResist - (DamResistDebuff *(1 - DamResist))))If we set DamResistDebuff to 0, this simplifies to
DamAdmittedNoDebuff = DamApplied * (1 - DamResist)Taking the ratio of DamAdmitted to DamAdmittedNoDebuff and simplifying yields
DamAdmittedNoDebuff / DamAdmitted = 1 + DamResistDebuff
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'd say that is sort of true.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
It's a fair point which I won't dispute, but a lot of ATs have HP caps so low and close to the normal max for them that +HP buffs aren't that meaningful. It's also less fun a buff to the power.
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(HP Needed to Cap)
Blasters, Stalkers -33%
Corrupters -50%
Defenders, Controllers, Dominators - 58%
Scrappers - 80%
Tanks - 88%
MM's - 100%
Brutes - 114%
Khelds/VEAT's - 125%
What is worse, since the HP buff is static between AT's it ends up a smaller buff for the Higher HP class you are.
From 36% as a 1017 HP, to a 20% buff for tanks at 1874 base HP. The Lingering buff is 5% buff on the low end. 3% buff for tanks.
But yeah, case in point, 8 of the 14 would get benefit if the buffs were tripled, 12 of the 14 would get benefit if they were doubled.
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I like your suggestion and yeah like destiny most of the buff is over the caps anyway
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
That is only true for the short duration part of the buff. Should they lower Barrier's buffs because the short duration part is over the 75% resist cap most ATs have?
Simply tripling the +HPs will indeed make the short duration part cause many people to hit the cap, just like the other Destiny buffs. I find that to be a desired goal of my suggestion. It will also make the part of the buff that lasts longer actually meaningful, another desired goal of the suggestion. |
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Once again, the short duration buff is not the only factor that should be counted. 14 of 14 would get benefit if the buffs were tripled, because the huge buff only lasts a short time. Sure some specific builds are already HP capped, but not all options ned to apply to all builds. My Kat/Inv scrapper is perma-capped, so +HPs is useless even at the current small amount. My Claws/Elec might get good use out of +HPs, if the long lasting buff was in the range of 150-200 HPs and scaled up from there. My WP/Mace tanker is close enough to the HP cap, that I'd never bother, but I'd love for this to be useful on my Fire/Ice tanker.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
But yeah, case in point, 8 of the 14 would get benefit if the buffs were tripled, 12 of the 14 would get benefit if they were doubled.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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You have to calculate resists and having those same teammates all using radial but yeah I don't think anyone could convince me to go Core over Radial when it comes to Interface Reactive.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That one's not so cut and dry, in my opinion. Core Reactive's total DPS increase is 10% of all sources. If you're on a team or league, that 10% extra damage can easily outstrip the straight additive DPS you net with even max-stacked Radial Reactive.
Solo, I'll agree Core is generally weaker. I don't think it's safe to assume Core is balanced for what it does for you solo. |
...besides, that 25% chance for radial to do the exact same -res from all teammates will easily cap against hard targets, especially since I have a damage aura.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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I'm not trying to convince you to take it. I'm explaining to you why the devs may not want the Core side's resistance debuff numbers larger. Six times the Radial DoT (the reported stacking max for the DoT) is probably a crapton less DPS than +10% of the total DPS of a 24-man League laying into 10% (max stacked) -RES. Making the -RES larger will only increase that gap.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
You have to calculate resists and having those same teammates all using radial but yeah I don't think anyone could convince me to go Core over Radial when it comes to Interface Reactive.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Core Rebirth is an EXCELLENT way to get healing badges.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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But it is not any better at getting the healing badges than Radial Rebirth.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Core Rebirth is an EXCELLENT way to get healing badges.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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actually it is because it will give you credit regardless if targets are full hp or not due to the +maxHP
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But it is not any better at getting the healing badges than Radial Rebirth.
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After much consideration, I have deduced that there is only only logical explanation for Core Rebirth getting out of beta in its current state.
It's clearly a way for devs to trap pure healers and subject them to even more ridicule.
To further that goal, here are some changes that I would suggest for Core Rebirth:
* Change it from a click to a timed auto so it fires every 120 seconds regardless of what the user is doing.
* Add a huge, obnoxious "INCARNATE ABILITY DESTINY CORE REBIRTH HEALING" float text over every affected entity's head when used. In green letters.
* Gray out all the user's powers that are not heals for its duration.
* Display a huge, obnoxious "GATHER FOR INCARNATE ABILITY DESTINY CORE REBIRTH HEALING IN 5" "... 4" "... 3" "... 2" "... 1" float text over every nearby entity's head when used, then fire it off 5 seconds later. In green letters.
* Reset the user's badge title to his or her highest healing badge when used. Preferably Empath.
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Though, to be serious, since this ability caters to the healer types, perhaps it should give that kind of player what they want? Either shorter recharge & shorter duration, or additional ticks of heal after delays, or granting a temporary auto power that self-heals per tick. I'd still never use it, but it would make certain players happy.
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Heal ticks are functionally the same as regen. The whole point is to distinguish the two trees.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Though, to be serious, since this ability caters to the healer types, perhaps it should give that kind of player what they want? Either shorter recharge & shorter duration, or additional ticks of heal after delays, or granting a temporary auto power that self-heals per tick. I'd still never use it, but it would make certain players happy.
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Yeah, what I'm saying is if those same 24 all take radial, you are going to be at the -res cap on top of the dots anyway, guaranteed, if we are going with that argument, so it still makes way more sense to go radial.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not trying to convince you to take it. I'm explaining to you why the devs may not want the Core side's resistance debuff numbers larger. Six times the Radial DoT (the reported stacking max for the DoT) is probably a crapton less DPS than +10% of the total DPS of a 24-man League laying into 10% (max stacked) -RES. Making the -RES larger will only increase that gap.
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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I'll admit healing and regeneration are normally potayto potahto, but with AT modifiers getting ignored, they do become different. Tankers versus masterminds, to use extreme examples. Tankers will love radial's +regen, while masterminds (and their pets) will love core's HoT.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Heal ticks are functionally the same as regen. The whole point is to distinguish the two trees.
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No disagreement. (That also works in reverse. If it's true, a league full of people with Core Reactive would probably also cap out the fire DoT.) In either case, if the devs are concerned about adding new source of -DR (remember, I'm only speculating that) it would seem likely they won't ever make it stronger. As a result, people solo or on small teams would probably continue get less out of Core than they will out of Radial.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Yeah, what I'm saying is if those same 24 all take radial, you are going to be at the -res cap on top of the dots anyway, guaranteed, if we are going with that argument, so it still makes way more sense to go radial.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Exactly. I am working on a spines/fire here and there who is in his mid 20s who can't wait to get to reactive.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
In regards to rebirth core not getting the self rez..and barrier getting it. Well, its pretty damn silly. Barrier is the only Destiny that has little difference in the Core and Radial, besides the rez which as people have said..makes no sense at all.
Shouldn't Barrier have been one side with a higher +res, one side with more +def? So you could get say..a min of X% res, X+Y% def all the time, or a min of X+Y% res, X% def? Allowing you to pick the stat you need the most.
Then rebirth core could get the rez, which fits much better anyway.
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One could even argue that the +HPs should have been a Barrier feature, instead of a Rebirth feature. But at this point those things are not going to change.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
In regards to rebirth core not getting the self rez..and barrier getting it. Well, its pretty damn silly. Barrier is the only Destiny that has little difference in the Core and Radial, besides the rez which as people have said..makes no sense at all.
Shouldn't Barrier have been one side with a higher +res, one side with more +def? So you could get say..a min of X% res, X+Y% def all the time, or a min of X+Y% res, X% def? Allowing you to pick the stat you need the most. Then rebirth core could get the rez, which fits much better anyway. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
The only toon that I am contemplating Core Rebirth on is a MM, as it effectively gets 6x the HP bonus and represents a significant portion of the MM base HP and that of the tier 1 pets.
Most ATs will hit the HP cap before they run out of +HPs that way. A lot of the buff would be wasted.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.