Core Rebirth seems really weak!
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-05-07 16:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
the +hp is terrible in comparison to the +regen.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
It is indeed much weaker. Looking at tier 4 levels, the last minute (on a 1017 HP base squishy) you get +53 HP. That is a 5% boost that will take your regen from 5.94 HP/sec to 7.5 HP/Sec
Where as on the regen side of things, even at the base 1017 HP the 200% bonus you get takes you from 5.94 HP/sec to 14.4 HP/Sec.
+HP does more than just the amount of HP you regen, but it does seem like that branch of rebirth is more than little underpowered.
I just wonder why the heck rebirth doesn't include the rez power and barrier does. It seems like a clear accident, it just doesn't make any sense.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
Barrier needed the buff. Before it had the rez there was practically no difference between the Core and Radial branches.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
That doesn't mean rezzing people with a shield makes sense, also, rebirth needs the buff too. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Barrier needed the buff. Before it had the rez there was practically no difference between the Core and Radial branches.
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They needed something more barrier..y, maybe a temporary all player intangibility ala carnies at the heaviest portion (the first 7.5 seconds on the 90 sec version). Or maybe instead, the duration of the heavy part is increased to 15-20 seconds, but it still falls off totally at 90.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
None of these with the exception of Clarion are that great unless you already have mitigation for them to build upon. But truth be told, core rebirth is just really poor.
Eh, its useful for Masterminds, if only to pad Bodyguard Mode even more (as the +53 hp is really +359 hp due to bodyguard mode)
I use it on my bot/traps, but with double triage beacons already, and +regen is kinda meh for me, and the added HP boost means my pets are less likely to get one shot killed from stray attacks.
I don't think it's literally without use, but I certainly don't have anyone for whom I prefer the comparatively small (and AT-invariant) +HP to, well, almost any other Destiny. I got really excited at the notion of those +HP on something like a Willpower character, took a look at the actual numbers and was kind of like..."meh".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Not just that, but Core Reactive having a chance to do 10% more damage before resistances are applied is laughable. Radial Reactive does far, far more damage over time. It's not even close.
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Quote:
That one's not so cut and dry, in my opinion. Core Reactive's total DPS increase is 10% of all sources. If you're on a team or league, that 10% extra damage can easily outstrip the straight additive DPS you net with even max-stacked Radial Reactive.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Not just that, but Core Reactive having a chance to do 10% more damage before resistances are applied is laughable. Radial Reactive does far, far more damage over time. It's not even close.
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Solo, I'll agree Core is generally weaker. I don't think it's safe to assume Core is balanced for what it does for you solo.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
What I don't get is, look at what the other Destiny powers do.
Barrier hard caps your resistance to *everything* for *every body* and more than softcaps their defense.
Ageless is a full end refill, significant + recharge and +recovery.
Rebirth on the regen side brings you near the regen cap (I think its like 1600% out of 2000% for everyone other than scraps)
Clarion gives you enough status protection to resist just about anything outside of "special" holds like GW's soul storm and being sequestered.
The +HP however, gives a 36% HP increase for a 1017 base HP character. Given you can get 20% from accolades and other 10% from sets easily without even trying. The buff seems very insignificant compared to what the others can do.
No disagreement from me on Core Rebirth.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I guess core is designed for melee toons but they will most likely choose defense.
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True, after looking over the stats it's a complete no brainer to go with the Radial side. +HP sounds great and all until you look and see just how small that HP increase is... and how large the +regen on the Radial side is. At Tier 4 the Radial gives you perma +200% regen... and half the time it's much higher than that. Even comparing Tier 2 to Tier 2 the Radial wins out every time.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
No disagreement from me on Core Rebirth.
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
No way I'd take core on a melee when I could have radial instead... the +HP bonus is even less useful for a melee since it's a fixed amount that doesn't scale for AT.|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
I guess core is designed for melee toons but they will most likely choose defense.
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If core's designed for melee characters then there's a serious flaw in the design thought process. Heh, imagine that, a flaw in the implementation of the new incarnate stuff... whodathunkit?
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Oh. Then they should change that.
So we're agreed. Rebirth Core should get a rez component too.
(yes I know nobody ever said that before now)
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
Agreed, there should be a compelling reason for taking both sides. Making core rebirth so much weaker than radial doesn't strike me as good design. It needs something more to bring it to parity with radial... either greatly increasing the +HP (of marginal value anyway to many who already approach their AT cap) or adding another secondary effect that's equally valuable to the +regen of the radial. What that secondary effect might be is open to interpretation but whatever it is it should offer something as useful as the regen. Possibly a larger heal or a shorter recharge?|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Oh. Then they should change that.
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Trade offs are good things, it should be a question of "I could really use this side for x benefit but the other side for y benefit is also nice" The Alpha slot did this quite well; there was a valid benefit to going with either core or radial depending on the character. Heck, most of the other incarnate slots seem to likewise be a decent trade off for one side over another... I'll admit I haven't done an exhaustive comparison though. For some reason Rebirth Core got screwed.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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It might actually be more useful here, too. It feels like you're better off using barrier before people die instead of after, but with Rebirth it's assumed the pain has already been dished when you hit it.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
So we're agreed. Rebirth Core should get a rez component too.
(yes I know nobody ever said that before now) |
Quote:
its only a 10% increase of the target does not resist that debuff at all, which almost any AV lvl foe will have a good bit of normal resists that this will hardly effect them|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That one's not so cut and dry, in my opinion. Core Reactive's total DPS increase is 10% of all sources. If you're on a team or league, that 10% extra damage can easily outstrip the straight additive DPS you net with even max-stacked Radial Reactive.
Solo, I'll agree Core is generally weaker. I don't think it's safe to assume Core is balanced for what it does for you solo. |
think of reichsman who has 90% resist on all dmg, the -10% resist is resisted by 90% thus only increasing overall DPS by 1% which is near negligible
the fact that this is resistable and can stack a max of 4 times from all sources makes it darn near usless (i think ALL of the interface debuffs are actually pretty useless since they are resistable, only exceptions being the DoT in reactive and the -special in gravitic)
Quote:
It's always 10% more damage no matter what their basic resists are.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
its only a 10% increase of the target does not resist that debuff at all, which almost any AV lvl foe will have a good bit of normal resists that this will hardly effect them
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Plus, since it's an auto power given to the target and the target effectively debuffs itself, it's not affected by the purple patch.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vanden
So we're agreed. Rebirth Core should get a rez component too.
(yes I know nobody ever said that before now) |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
I think that's probably the reasoning, when stacking the radial side very quickly caps out at which point taking the core side is more beneficial.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Rebirth on the regen side brings you near the regen cap (I think its like 1600% out of 2000% for everyone other than scraps)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vanden
OR! Brainwave! You know how Hamidon and the green mitos can cause you to actually resist healing powers? What about the opposite of that? Make Core Rebirth give -Res to healing! That way further healing from teammates or whatever is increased in effectiveness on targets hit by Core Rebirth. It's thematic, it's a buff to the power, and it doesn't step on Barrier's toes!
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Quote:
I like that idea.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
It's always 10% more damage no matter what their basic resists are.
Plus, since it's an auto power given to the target and the target effectively debuffs itself, it's not affected by the purple patch. OR! Brainwave! You know how Hamidon and the green mitos can cause you to actually resist healing powers? What about the opposite of that? Make Core Rebirth give -Res to healing! That way further healing from teammates or whatever is increased in effectiveness on targets hit by Core Rebirth. It's thematic, it's a buff to the power, and it doesn't step on Barrier's toes! |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
Quote:
Why not just triple the amount of +HPs?
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Originally Posted by Vanden
So we're agreed. Rebirth Core should get a rez component too.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
In the Rebirth tree, you choose between +Max HP and +Regen as your secondary effect. The +HP seems really weak, though. It's like, an extra 175 HP on average. Meanwhile the Radial variety's regeneration buff will heal you to nearly full health in 10 seconds even without the actual heal, and continues to give Integration-level regen the whole time.
Can someone with math prove me off-base, or is Core Rebirth truly much weaker than Radial Rebirth? If so, maybe giving the Core Rebirth powers a rez wouldn't have made it too strong after all...
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.