Claws/SR vs. Widow

In advance, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'd just like some quick input. From what I can tell, comparing these 2:

Claws/SR:
Higher HP
Debuff Resistance
Cheaper on the END bar

Widow:
Higher Damage
Better team player

Can I get some more notes comparing the two, pros and cons of each, etc. Which one should be a keeper? Thanks in advance

I won't dispute the "better team player" bit, but a Widow should NOT be outdamaging a scrapper.

If you do any teaming, the Widow.

You nailed it well. I think the damage should be a wash - the widow needs Ageless or Cardiac to attack at full speed, whereas the Claws/SR can pick Musculature and end up even with the Widow in DPS (the widow can of course pick Ageless and Musculature, but then the Claws/SR can pick Rebirth and have much more survivability, etc.).

The widow also has the advantage of being able to go a fair bit above 45% defense without any compromises. Good against tohitbuffs and incarnate content.

I've spent quite a ton of time studying Scrapper Claws DPS... heck I could probably write a college thesis on it, and I'm pretty darn sure that Widows straight up out-DPS a Claws scrapper. I'd love to hear otherwise, but I'll need some numbers to back that up

I haven't looked at claws/SR, but on paper without the reactive interface I've looked at several variants to my widow build that hits various points around 250 DPS while using the cardiac alpha. An ingame pylon test I did showed me I could hit between 250 and 300 actual DPS with the reactive interface under true game conditions. No lore pets were involved. If that's not more damage than scrapper claws, and it very well might not be, I'd still expect it to be pretty competitive.

I also expect widows to have an easier time hitting the 'incarnate softcap' by themselves, if you want to, and they do bring team buff into the equation, along with having some very nice tricks. SR really doesn't compare well to the 'widow training' branches, needing more powers to yield less defense, with the major advantage being its high DDR. I think if there's a place the widows badly outshines the scrapper, it's in the comparative secondaries.

That's certainly above my Claws/SR build not using any Incarnate boost outside her Alpha tier 3 ... caveat is the build was built emphasizing durability (vs recharge/damage output) so she solo's a pylon relatively slowly compared to some (180'ish dps). But she has survived a string of 3 consecutive blasts (curse you RNG) from the pylon watching the damage tics from the pylon drop to nearly double digits in the process do to scaling passives, without resorting to Aid Self (or anything outside passive regen) and still surviving to take the pylon down, something I'm not sure my Widow builds could do.

DPS : 230 to 300 NW with Reactive vs 200 to 300 Claws with Achilles -res, Fury -res, and Reactive.

59% Defense : Easy for a NW vs Definitely appears more difficult to me for Claws. However, I'm not a Claws/SR expert.

DDR: 30 to 60 for NW vs 95 to Capped? for SR. (I honestly didn't realize widows got any DDR.)

Scaling Resists: None vs SR's gets scaling resists.

Hit-Points: 1450 for a Widow vs 1900 for an SR.

SL Resists: 24% for Widow Tough vs 21% for SR Tough.

Regen: 15 hp/s for Widow vs 25 hp/s for SR. (based on builds I've seen)

Team Defense: 28.5 for Widow vs 3.5 for SR.

Team Assault: 30 for Widow vs 10 for the SR.

I can see arguments for both. It's what you want. I went Melee-Fort and I've still not been pulled back in by NW nor Claws/SR. I will say, I'm most jealous of the HP and DDR. There are so many times I wish I had either or both.

PS: 180 sounds low to me. If you don't already have achilles and fury -res procs, add one or both and that should put you right in the sweet spot.

Just as a note: Reactive T3 Total Radial 75% chance for fire was adding 60 dps when fully saturated for me. I'd bet on the 50% fire 25% -res to be close to that if not better considering how fast the attack chain is, but I've not tested it yet.

Hey Claws, can I see your build? I don't want to seem like I'm TRYING to disagree with you or anything, but I've been playing with my Claws/SR trying to max DPS for quite a while, and I really don't see a way for it to get much higher than my current build, so I'd just love to be able to compare

For the record, my Claws/SR is my favorite toon.

Well for a bit of comparison, I'm getting an average of 242 dps with 25%/25% reactive on my Claws/SR...

Theoretically, a Widow should be able to outdamage a scrapper. They have very good DPA attacks, and lots of +dam effects (dual-assault + FU). However, they are not as survivable, and much more prone to 2-shots than the scrapper. The attacks chains also tend to be really end draining as far as I've seen, especially ones that use a ridiculous amount of +recharge.

If you want to do crazy scrapper stuff, go Claws/SR. Widows can do even crazier stuff and are great on a team, but in order to maximize their effectiveness they need to be team players backed up with a lot of support.

My NW's always dealt with lack of DDR with purple insps.

And with i19's inherent fitness, I grabbed elude and haven't died from cascade failure since.

And Fortunatas could just pop off an AOE control if they were getting debuffed instead.

Plus, since my NW has aidself, I use the barrier destiny for more debuff padding and added resistance.

However, widows do get some DDR and some scaling resists, from Foresight. It's just not enough to really make a huuuuge difference like it does for SR. It's still there, and it does on occasion help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Combat Theoretically, a Widow should be able to outdamage a scrapper. They have very good DPA attacks, and lots of +dam effects (dual-assault + FU). However, they are not as survivable, and much more prone to 2-shots than the scrapper. The attacks chains also tend to be really end draining as far as I've seen, especially ones that use a ridiculous amount of +recharge. If you want to do crazy scrapper stuff, go Claws/SR. Widows can do even crazier stuff and are great on a team, but in order to maximize their effectiveness they need to be team players backed up with a lot of support.

That's not really true. My widow is able to solo in the incarnate trials, completely isolated from a team. The only conditions I need teammates under are ones that would hit SR just as hard, such as enemies with +100% tohit buffs (DE quartz, rularuu eyeballs in large numbers), or auto-hit powers (the pbaoe nictus in the end of the ITF). Otherwise I haven't seen alot of scrappers do anything I couldn't, solo; I have however seen a lot of scrappers die trying to keep up with me.

That said, the best use of my powers is often to stay with the team and buff them. But it's me helping them, not them helping me.

Assuming the Mids and City of Data numbers are correct.
Once upon a time they were not correct.
I have NOT double checked them for scrapper claws, recently.
I adjusted Eviscerate Based on City of Data. The City of Data number was lower for PVE than the Mids Number.

My simulator says ClawsandEffect's build would run in the 212 range, 270+ with Reactive.
My spread sheet says 245. However, Experience Tells me to adjust the spread sheet by 85% on average. So that's 208 dps adjusted, 268 with Reactive.