Temporary Power - The Suppressor
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-23 06:23 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by Atago
Why as Temporary Power? No one has to create a Suppressor and use it if he doesn't like. Is it needed? What is really needed? Do we really need the Pool Powers? Do we really need COH? But if i take a look in the related discussions i think it could make more sense than many of the other Temp Powers. |
/unsigned again like in so many threads before. KB is fine as is. I see this causing more problems than it is worth by having players complain that you should go and suppress your KB when you don't want to or new players being falsely told that KB is bad and that suppressing it is the only thing to do instead of learning how to use it.
And I still am very grateful thath the devs failed in their little experiment.
As for needing anything, that I consider a weak position that you don't want to support your idea. If you have reasons, then state them. Don't hide behind why do we need anything in life positions. This requires time, resource, etc. to add to the game and I don't want to see that wasted on something like this "just because" when we can get new content to the game.
It's your opinion that all is fine and we don't need such additional stuff and it's my opinion, that it would be an improvement and if i take a look in other Threads i see that there are several Players who think the same.
There are many 'Knockback' Threads out there where the Reasons for and Reasons against any kind of Changes or a Suppression were discussed before. In all these Threads i did not found an argument that convinced me that Suppressions/Changes/Improvements to knockbacks are rubbish and will ruin the game, so i don't know why this all should be repeated, it makes no sense and for me it's a waste of time. It's not necessary for me to convince you, cause it's not your decision if there should be changes or not. I think the Devs follow these threads too and will form their own opinion and will decide on their own if it is an issue or not and if they can afford the time or not. But if i see that f.E. in 95% of the Crab-Builds Frag Grenade is skipped cause it has Knockback than it is clear for me that it is an issue. You have to accept that it is a problem for a part of the players, even if it is no problem for you. And so do i accept that you think that the Devs should use their time for something, in your eyes, more important.
But O.K. if you have this new, up to now not stated and stringent argument that shows that those changes would hurt the game or imbalance it, feel free to post it and i will be quiet and will not longer pursue this specific idea. 'Learn to play with it' is for me no argument but a dumb quote.
P.S. Balancing and Improvements to the existing Content > new Content. That's what i think about that.
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Ugh, wall of text there. |
Originally Posted by Atago
It's your opinion that all is fine and we don't need such additional stuff and it's my opinion, that it would be an improvement and if i take a look in other Threads i see that there are several Players who think the same, even if many of them get flamed down. There are many 'Knockback' Threads out there where the Reasons for and Reasons against any kind of Changes or a Suppression were discussed before. In all these Threads i did not found an argument that convinced me that Suppressions/Changes/Improvements to knockbacks are rubbish and will ruin the game, so i don't know why this all should be repeated, it makes no sense and for me it's a waste of time. I think the Devs follow these threads, too and will form their own opinion. But O.K. if you have this new, up to now not stated and stringent argument that shows that those changes would hurt the game or imbalance it, feel free to post it and i will be quiet and will not longer pursue this idea. 'Learn to play with it' is for me no argument but a dumb quote.
P.S. Balancing and Improvements to the existing Content > new Content. That's what i think about that. |
As for the rest, go read those other threads if you need more information. I have posted to them before. Apparently, this is turning into yet another OMGMYIDEAISSOAWESOMEHOWCOULDANYONEDISAGREE threads that have been posted lately.
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Edited it a bit, better now?|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Ugh, wall of text there.
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I agree that it has to be that people disagree in a discussion thread, but i disagree that i have to agree to the disagreement :-))
I don't want to discuss about Knockback for one reason: For one part of the players Knockback is a problem, for the other part it is not and this brings us right to the heart of the problem. If all of us were satisfied with it we wouldn't have a problem and if all were unsatisfied with it we also wouldn't have a problem. A discussion about it leads to nothing, cause even after hours the one part will still hate and the other part will still love it. It's up to the Devs to decide if it is important enough to take a look at it. So the only thing we can discuss is the suggestion i made. I think it makes sense cause it helps the one part and doesn't hurt the other.
But i think you're right and we shouldn’t take such a serious view at it. In the end the Devs will do with the Ideas and Suggestions what they guess anyway. See ya tomorrow.
Only if it's only available at level 50, so you actually have to spend time playing WITH knockback and learn to use your powers properly. After which, well, you shouldn't need it.
Plus, the suggestion wouldn't affect the point where KB is actually problematic - *uncontrolled* KB, such as Illusion's Phantasm. (And why is it problematic? Because it's completely out of the *player's* control.)
Also, *completely* killing knockback? So if I have an Ice/Energy Dom, I turn this on and Ice Slick is now 100% useless. Yeah. I don't see that flying.
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/agree with this|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Plus, the suggestion wouldn't affect the point where KB is actually problematic - *uncontrolled* KB, such as Illusion's Phantasm. (And why is it problematic? Because it's completely out of the *player's* control.)
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KB is only extremely annoying when you get pets with knockback (looking at imperious from ITF as a MAJOR source of this problem)
i also think getting KB'd myself is really annoying too, but player KB specifically isnt that bad unless your playing with someone who acts like imperious and using hand clap as their opener into a mob, which is rarely if ever
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I think others covered the side of why this isn't something we particularly need, so my question for you is how would this actually work?|
Originally Posted by Atago
Temporary Power - The Suppressor:
Build out of Recipes like Jet Packs, Recovery Serums etc. Toggle Power, fast Recharge, lasts for 2h of activation time (you can create only 1 at a time so it has to last long enough for TFs, Trials etc.) If you turn this device on it creates a field that suppresses(decreases) the Knockback effects of your Powers to a Magnitude of 0.1 (or 0.5 or 0.67? I'm not sure what would be better). Or with complete KB-Suppression: If you turn this device on it creates a field that suppresses the Knockback effects of your Powers. |
Dual Pistols is often cited as the example of a "turn knockback off" power but have you looked at how it works? Every power in the set has a proc that has either an "X%" or "0%" chance fo activating depending on ammo choice. Using that would require the devs to add a similar proc to every. single. power. with knockback in the game.
A theoretical alternative is to apply it as a -kb debuff, Power Boost used to provide a kb buff so I think it's possible but that has it's own problems. First off it takes a fraction of the kb magnitude away rather than a set amount and like most debuffs in the game it would have a maximum limit (I suspect -75% but that's a WAG) so even with that most kb powers will still be kb.
Can we get a "suppressor suppressor" that shuts down other players' suppressors and re-institutes knockback?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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But then we'd need a suppressor suppressor suppressor to shut down other people's suppressor suppressors. Where would it end?
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Can we get a "suppressor suppressor" that shuts down other players' suppressors and re-institutes knockback?
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In my suggestion the Suppressor works only for your own Powers......so no need for a suppressor suppressor:-)
I don't know much about programming so i'm not able to judge if something is makeable or not. I found the idea of the customizable Powers with a right click menu which has sliders also nice, but thought that this would be much more work. But Ideas are ideas and not more and if is too difficult to realize them, or the Devs don't have the time for it, or don't see any benefit from it for the Game, O.K.
I'm not a big fan of changing Knockback-Effects in general. In many Situations and many Powers they make sense and are an integral part of the game. But what i see is that a part of the Players seem to have a problem with it and even if we say that they should learn to use it in the right way they still will have it. It's a simple fact that some Players love it, some Players hate it and some Players love it when soloing but hate it when Teaming. Nothing that each side brings into the discussion will convince the other side. Preferences and personal Feeling seldom can be changed through arguments.
-If nothing is changed a good part of the players will still have problems with it and dislike it. No arguments and advices will change this point. That we can see cause it is discussed over and over again.
-If the Powers itself or the Effect are changed it will change the balancing and for many Players the whole game and i think nobody wants this.
My thought was that if it would be in the form of a Temporary power the effort for most players for buying the recipes, building them and that after each TF or every 2-3 Missions would be too great to use the Power 24/7. So it will be used only under certain conditions. And the other point that it only affects the Players who have issues with it and all other Players are not affected and can still play the game as before.
P.S.
Interesting that you brought Dual Pistols into the discussion, it has its own kind of Knockback Suppression already and from what i see it works.
Should just give everyone a toggle like pistols has that affects only knock powers and knock procs. Add a knockback toggle, knockdown toggle and a knock up toggle. So you can decide which you want to use or use none at all. No endurance costs or durations for these powers.
Unenhanceable powers with instant activation like the current pistols toggles. They are available at level 1.
Currently slotting knockback into a power would have no effect without running one of the said toggles and you'd still have to turn on one of these toggles. They would be excluded from the toggles cap and are never suppressed when mezzed. Higher magnitude knockbacks would do the appropriate type of knock. So if you're running a knockup power then higher mag would knock things up higher, knockdown would keep things floored longer and knockback would function the same way it currently does.
This would only affect YOUR powers and nobody else. So there everyone would be happy. The energy blaster is free to blast things without pissing everyone off and the khelds are free to blast stuff into oblivion without scattering it everywhere.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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And the way this is phrased (now you can blast stuff without scattering it everywhere) just sounds like an excuse to not ever need to think or care what you're doing. Yeah, phrasing it as 'and now you have more control over where you're putting the target' sounds a lot more enticing, but since you already failed to state it that way I seriously doubt that is what it'd be used for the majority of the time. It'll just be a way for people to say 'Turn off your KB or you're kicked'.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
The energy blaster is free to blast things without pissing everyone off and the khelds are free to blast stuff into oblivion without scattering it everywhere.
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And this is why I won't ever agree to such a suggestion. The suggesters that are supposedly 'trying to help' obviously have ulterior motives.
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Would still be better than 'Don't use your KBs or you're kicked', or don't get invited into teams cause you play a Char with many KB-Powers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
'Turn off your KB or you're kicked'.
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And I have yet to see players get told this or been asked if they have KB so they aren't invited.|
Originally Posted by Atago
Would still be better than 'Don't use your KBs or you're kicked', or don't get invited into teams cause you play a Char with many KB-Powers.
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If someone has to say 'don't use your KB or you're kicked' you're probably not using it properly. If people dictate its use, there will be less situations or circumstances of it *ever* being used properly.
My beef is players that don't *care* to try . They don't want to use it properly so seek to negate it or just not use it. This isn't a fault of KB. It's really a shame because KB is a powerful mitigative tool and having *more* control of it would be great...but not at the expense of fewer players with the *capability* to harness this.
People get kicked now for being careless jerks with knockback anyway so what difference? I see people get kicked for it all the time.
When people get careless with it now people usually ask them to tone it down or leave the team and they are usually happy to tone it down. As a person that has many knockback toons including 3 storm characters, a kheld and 1 energy blaster, and many robot/merc masterminds, this would be a welcomed change.
You can be mindful with some forms of knockback by simply hovering over targets and shooting them. But things like tornado, lightning storm, solar flare and most of the kheld blasts are chaotic and you can't very well control them. Basically gotta have a controller on the team spamming cages to negate all that excess knockback.
Or you can be the common jerk that has no respect for his team mates and just knockback and scatter **** all over the place and eventually gets kicked / 1 star. Nobody wants to chase that mess that's playing a melee character and it also negates the point of bringing aoe to the team.
Yes it is a good mitigation tool when used properly but people tend to just be more careless and scatter stuff all over the place. This optional self toggle would greatly help with the problem. You'd get to choose between knockback, knockdown, knockup or no knock at all.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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That is your experience that people are careless. Don't force your annoyance to others like me. And there is no problem as far as I can see, except you making one up. This will create a bigger problem because will kick people for not using a toggle or IO or whatever to change the KB. It solved NOTHING and wasted time and resource.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Yes it is a good mitigation tool when used properly but people tend to just be more careless and scatter stuff all over the place. This optional self toggle would greatly help with the problem. You'd get to choose between knockback, knockdown, knockup or no knock at all.
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I have BOTH melee toons and toons with KB (like en/en blaster, WS, /storm MM, etc.) - and willing to bet you that many others do to. Don't act like we don't have a clue about those oh-so-poor melee toons that have actually follow a mob...or my poor little WP brute or WP scrapper that needs mobs around, or my ice tank that lays down a patch of ice, or my ice/cold corr or cold/ice def that puts more ice down that people can KB off of. Should I go on with my fire/ corr and raining fire or my /arch def and her arrows?
And last point, absolutely never want to see KD/KU as a option to KB, it is way too powerful a control mechanism, especially with all the AOEs in this game.
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Excuse me if I don't take your word for it.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
People get kicked now for being careless jerks with knockback anyway so what difference? I see people get kicked for it all the time.
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I love how everytime someone starts a thread about this subject that a few people are always so hostile and against seeing a completely OPTIONAL feature added. Its just like the dual pistols toggles that negate knockback. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
But don't keep those of us that want such a feature from being added simply because of your fears.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
No one is being hostile. I'm just expressing my opinion and trying to explain why I have such an opinion.
And it wouldn't be like Swap Ammo. Swap Ammo switches your KB effect for -rech, -dmg or extra damage. You're not gaining anything by turning your KB off except less mitigation.
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I love how everytime someone starts a thread like this there are posters that get all hostile because they have a know-it-all solution to an imaginary problem, even when told they will make more problems and solve nothing. |
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I love how everytime someone starts a thread about this subject that a few people are always so hostile and against seeing a completely OPTIONAL feature added. Its just like the dual pistols toggles that negate knockback. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
But don't keep those of us that want such a feature from being added simply because of your fears. |
But don't keep those of us that use common sense from keeping such bad things to be added.
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You seem to have all the answers about whats good and whats bad so you're eating your own words when you refer to someone else as a know it all. Imaginary problem hah if knockback is an imaginary problem then people getting kicked from not using an optional no knockback feature is also an imaginary problem.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
I love how everytime someone starts a thread like this there are posters that get all hostile because they have a know-it-all solution to an imaginary problem, even when told they will make more problems and solve nothing.
But don't keep those of us that use common sense from keeping such bad things to be added. |
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Maybe Knockback itself is not a Problem. Maybe Knockback causes no Problems for a part of the Players, but in fact the form it is implemented as secondary effect of Damagepowers causes problems for enough other players so that it is not damnable to give thoughts about it. Denying this categorically is a bit unfair regarding these Players. More helpfull would be helping to find a solution for a compromise which would be O.K. for all.
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More helpful would be not forcing your issue with KB onto others and realizing that those same players with KB toons are very likely to also have melee toons or toons with AOE attacks and knows what happens when KB is used wrongly. More helpful would be teach others how to adapt to KB and to use it to its fullest potential.|
Originally Posted by Atago
Maybe Knockback itself is not a Problem. Maybe Knockback causes no Problems for a part of the Players, but in fact the form it is implemented as secondary effect of Damagepowers causes problems for enough other players so that it is not damnable to give thoughts about it. Denying this categorically is a bit unfair regarding these Players. More helpfull would be helping to find a solution for a compromise which would be O.K. for all.
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Those other threads brought this up.
If you were right then we wouldn't have these recurring discussions over and over again. That we have them is a proof that it is not only me (this is the first and only KB-Thread in that i've quoted) and that it is not enough to explain how KB is used correctly in teams. This is a fact that you forswear in a stubborn way for some inexplicable reason. As long as you do this a further discussion with you will lead to nothing. Whatever! I presented my idea and that was all i wanted.
Knockback, one of the most discussed secondary effect. Some love and some hate it. Some take Powersets cause they have Knockbacks, some avoid these Powersets for that reason. In some situations it's usefull in others rather annoying. There are threads about using it in teams correctly and PPL who don't want to have Knockbackers in their team. There are situations where PPL are frustrated cause their Knockdowns turn in Knockbacks, some PPL want it to be changed and some PPL don't see the necessity of changes and think PPL should learn to live with it and Players only have the Problems cause they use their KB-Powers in the wrong way.........It seems to be a tricky Situation. No matter what is done one side will be unsatisfied. We don't have to discuss this all once more, it was discussed often enough and all Arguments for and against Changes are wrote many times.
Here is my Suggestion. To avoid a disadvantage for one side don't change the Powers or the Knockback itself, better add an additional Feature. So the PPL can decide on their own if they want to use it or not. We had some Ideas before like Toggles to turn KB off/reduce their Mag, customizable Secondary Effects, changing KB to Knockups/Knockdowns, here is my Idea:
Temporary Power - The Suppressor:
Build out of Recipes like Jet Packs, Recovery Serums etc.
Toggle Power, fast Recharge, lasts for 2h of activation time (you can create only 1 at a time so it has to last long enough for TFs, Trials etc.)
If you turn this device on it creates a field that suppresses(decreases) the Knockback effects of your Powers to a Magnitude of 0.1 (or 0.5 or 0.67? I'm not sure what would be better).
Or with complete KB-Suppression:
If you turn this device on it creates a field that suppresses the Knockback effects of your Powers.
Why as Temporary Power? No one has to create a Suppressor and use it if he doesn't like.
Is it needed? What is really needed? I don't know if it's really needed. If KB is changed someday i think such additional features will offer some advantages over Powerchanges cause they harm PPL who love KB not too much.