My turn! - Thoughts/advice for a new rig

Disclaimer - I am woefully out of date on current technology. The last systems I built were ~7 years ago and AGP was only months from being outdated (shakes fist!)

But I am finally looking to update, and I'd stick with my current system, but I can't seem to find a graphics card that would actually give me a noticeable improvement. I'm currently sporting a 6800 LE and my mobo only has AGP 8x capabilities. If there is a card that will give me significantly increased performance, at least for this game, I'll certainly look into it.

Basic current config:
P4 2.8 Ghz
4 Gig Ram
6800 LE

This is the only game I currently play and for the foreseeable future, but the system has served me well for others games in the past and other mundane uses. I do not do graphic rendering, programming, movie watching/editing. But i would like to see the game I enjoy now looking a lot better and not stuttering every so often. Plus, I would like something to last performance-wise for a good long while.

Between browsing Newegg and these forums, this is what I'm looking at:
Intel Core I5 (I was thinking I7, but that might be overkill for my uses?)
G.Skill 12 GB
Antec 650 W (Has enough juice for everything?)
Asus Mobo #1 / #2 (#1 is currently out of stock)
Cooler Master Tower
Graphics #1 / #2 (any real difference between the two? I'm more out of date on graphics cards than anything else)

I prefer Intel and Nvidia due to past ATI and AMD mishaps, but perhaps they are better now? I know they are generally cheaper, but I was burned more than once by either of them. It has been a long time, so maybe I could be talked into them if the price/performance/reliability is there.

Any glaring issues? Anything comparably priced, yet better performance? I'm looking to keep it around $1K, up to 1.2K, but the lower the better of course. I can't really justify more than that *shrug*

Thank you for any and all insights.

I've already forgotten about most of you

Glaring issue: That CPU is socket 1155, just like motherboard #1. However, mobo #2 is socket 1366 and not compatible with that CPU. I agree that going past the Core i5 is overkill if CoH is the most demanding application you expect to run.

Comment: Wow, that's a lot of RAM. I have 8GB and can run 2 instances of CoH plus my browser, Excel, Word and Photoshop without running out.

I'd find a mobo compatible with that CPU and drop the RAM to 8GB (no triple channel). I have that exact same power supply. BTW, I have the same RAM also, but a dual channel kit (i.e. 2 sticks of 4GB). Nice case. And.... I can't offer any advice on the video since I'm only familiar with AMD.

Check Tom's Hardware for the Graphics Card Hierarchy. They also have a review for various GeForce GTX 460 worth examining.

I personally went with a MSI N560GTX-TI Twin Frozr II/OC card, the next "bin" up in the Graphics Card Hierarchy, because it managed to get multiple recommendation spots in TR's March 2011 system guide and around the CoH forums.


Further thoughts: Be aware that the -M in the ASUS motherboard indicates it is a microATX, as the 9.6" x 9.6" size reveals. This is NOT the same ASUS P8P67 PRO that won the Tech Report Editor’s Choice Award. (It almost had me fooled, too.)

Stick with memory in sets of 2 sticks for the first mobo, sets of 3 sticks for the second mobo. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the way to check is by how many memory slots are available and what channels are supported (double channel vs triple channel) in the memory section of the product's Details tab.

Ironblade hit the highlights.

For Socket 1155, memory is needed in pairs, two pairs maximum. Only Socket 1366 use memory in sets of three. So for 8GB you are looking for something like this.

The "fixed" Socket 1155 motherboards are just starting to flow back into the mail order channel so they will be in very short supply for awhile. All the ones at NewEgg that I would consider seem to be sold out for the short term.

For the two graphics cards. The MSI card is slightly faster and has better cooling but vents the heat into the case. That shouldn't be a problem because the case you picked has a lot of ventilation. The eVGA card has a lifetime warranty and tries to blow the heat out of the case.

If you want to look at ATI, the HD 6870 is in the same price range ($210 before rebate) and generally performs faster, 10-15%, in a cross section of games. In this game in particular, I don't know which is better.

Both the PSU and the case are fine.

RE: Chipset - #@$!#@$! completely skipped my mind. Was kind of thinking with the new generation they stopped doing multiple packages. Is one chipset only for i7s? I believe I'd like to stay with the 1155, so will have to see availability. It sounded like it had better performance for the price, but maybe I was getting that mixed with other chipset/CPU combos.

RE: Mobo - Ugh, thanks for the micro catch. I don't want to deal with another one of those if at all possible.

RE: Memory - I put in more than I knew I would need. 8 gig sounds more recommended then?


I will have to wait to check out the graphic information.

I don't know how new it is, but Newegg has DIY combo kits consisting of case, CPU, memory and mobo. I imagine those would guarantee compatiblility, but various parts on some of them didn't really win me over. Of course, being out of date myself, I could be completely wrong.

Thanks for all the input. I will give it another pass when I get a chance to research.

I've already forgotten about most of you

I did not see mention of the hard drives in your build. If you can afford it, I would definitely put an SSD in your computer if you want faster load times in the game. If an SSD is too much money for this build then maybe a WD 2 TB black ( along with the larger size it is very fast ) and a WD raptor for the boot drive.

Going to stay away from SSD; I know the pros for them, but just not my thing currently. Maybe later on.

Not sure of the harddrive or if I'll be reusing the ones I currently have. Let's just say that SATA will be brand spanking new to me :S It's currently available on my system, but was "too new" and expensive for me to dive in to at the time. Minimum will be 1TB, but the reviews/feedback I've been reading lately kind of scare me of drives dying/corrupting way too easily.

I've already forgotten about most of you

On the PSU I would upgrade to 750W as you want enough power if you want to up grade your video card down the road. I learnt the hard way with my first DIY project.

RE: PSU - I really have no need or desire to ever run SLI/Crossfire, so that's why I am initially going with 650W (same as I currently have, and I'm pretty sure it's overkill). I may have multiple HDs, and just 1xCD rom and/or DVD burner as other peripherals, but I wouldn't think I'd need to up the power output? Increasing it doesn't bother me, but for wants/needs and price, I'd like to keep it simple.

Mobos - Due to the disinterest in a micro style (again, thanks for the heads up), and making sure to actually get compatible components , these are the 3 that seem to cover what I want and need compared to price:
ASUS P8P67 LE (REV 3.0) (currently out of stock)
MSI P67A-C43 (B3)
BIOSTAR TP67B+ (I believe I'm unfamiliar with Biostar, but something from past experiences has me a little hesitant about them)

Lowered the memory since I went overkill (I'm a sucker for RAM). And pretty sure the MSI GeForce will suffice for quite sometime.

CPU : Intel Core i5-2500 Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz
Tower : COOLER MASTER RC-692-KKN2
GPU : MSI N460GTX Hawk GeForce GTX 460
PSU : Antec EarthWatts EA650 650W
Mem : G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin


Yes, I plan on getting Windows 7 and that's the other reason I put off upgrading for so long. 64 bit to take advantage of 4+ Gig Ram, but haven't looked over my saved info as to which version yet (that'll be the last thing I do). Are the multi-pack options still worth it? My wife says she wants it on her system, but a) doesn't need it and b) her system is less beefy than my current system anyway.


Again, thanks for all the input and insight.

I've already forgotten about most of you

It's just a good idea to have a little extra power now then needing it down the road. Father Xmas or someone else can explain this better than I can. But the build is solid and I hope you like it. But I would still just get a 750W psu.

My thought on PSU: I choose a CORSAIR HX750W for my similar build. I like having the extra power of a Silver-certified, Tech Report Editor's Choice awarded option.

Counter thought for PSU: Father_Xmas gave good logic that 600W was plenty for our types of systems, so 750W was overkill.

Your call! All things told, my bigger concern between equally choosing to keep an existing/(re)buy an equal/buy a larger PSU would to 1) make sure it is at least Bronze certified, and 2) make sure the case is big enough for a larger power supply if/when needing to upgrade. I don't know about the inside setup, but the outside 20.80" x 8.40" x 20.10" size of the COOLER MASTER RC-692-KKN2 sounds plenty big.

Heads-up: I'm pretty sure your memory choice is NOT compatible with all those Motherboards.



That G.SKILL 8GB DDR3 runs at 1600 speed.

That ASUS P8P67 LE does use 1600 speed, plus 1333 and 1066. The other three (2200, 2133, 1866) require overclocking of the base speeds.

That MSI 967A-C43 uses 1333 or 1066. The other two 2133 and 1600 are obtained by overclocking a 1333 or 1066 speed RAM stick.

That BIOSTAR TP67B+ uses 1333 or 1066 or 800 speed. The 2200, 2133, and 2000 speeds are the RAM sticks overclocked.



Also look at the CL_ where " _ " is a number. This number indicates how long it takes to respond aka Latency, so lower is better. For example: G.SKILL 8GB DDR3 1333 CL7D. I would use at minimum a DDR3 1333 CL7 (if the motherboard does not support DDR3 1600), at premium a DDR3 1600 CL7, or at medium a DDR3 1600 CL9. My 2-cents.

@Voodoo

When Intel went for the Core 2 to the Core iX series of CPUs they decided to name them based on performance and features and not socket. Therefore in the case of the Core i7, there are actually three different CPU sockets, each with there own little family of Core i7 CPUs. They are either quad or hex cores and run two threads per core to make either 8 or 12 pseudo cores.

Socket 1366 is the original i7-9xx series which likes memory three sticks of ram at a time and has a chipset that can handle 3-way SLi/Crossfire without needing to do anything tricky.

Socket 1156 is the budget i7-8xx series which likes memory two sticks of ram at a time but can only handle 2-way SLi/Crossfire at x8 speeds instead of x16 like 2-way on Socket 1366. Intel really really want Socket 1156 to go away yesterday because despite having a wide range of i7's at different speeds and price points, hard core do it yourselfers only buy the cheapest of them and overclock the snot out of it.

Socket 1155 is the "new" budget i7-2xxx series. Still can only handle 2-way SLi/Crossfire at x8 without doing anything tricky but is tightly locked in at it's specific speed (only allows +400MHz or so) unless you pay a bit more (~$30) for the K version which can overclock well beyond the +400MHz.

Note that 2-way SLi/Crossfire on Socket 1156 and 1155 is motherboard specific, that's one reason there are so many bloody P8P67 motherboard models from Asus.

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All P67 based motherboards should be able to support DDR3-1066, -1333, -1600, -1866, -2133 memory. Officially the Sandy Bridge CPUs only support the first 1066 and 1333 but the P67 unlocks those other settings. What's really important when choosing memory is it's voltage. Intel says no more than 1.55 volts for Sandy Bridge CPUs.

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When comparing CAS numbers you need to take the memory speed into account as well. It's easy to compare when either the CAS number or the memory speed is the same between two different sticks of memory. If the CAS number is the same, then the memory with the faster speed is better. If the memory speed is the same, then the memory with the lower CAS number is better. However if you are comparing memory that have both different speeds and CAS values, it's a little more difficult. What you need to compare (CAS+4)/speed, lower number generally means better performance. This means CAS 7 DDR3-1333 is nearly the same performance as CAS 9 DDR3-1600 so buy what's cheaper.

EDIT: This (CAS+4)/speed is my rule of thumb for comparing unlike DDR3 memory. Actual application benchmarks at X-bit Labs and Tom's Hardware seems support it. However unless the difference is between the (CAS+4)/speed numbers is significant, performance improvement with real world tasks is only a percent or two, if that.

Learn something new every day! Thank you for correcting me on the RAM, Father_Xmas.

Obviously Father_Xmas and others can offer you better technical advice, so I'll forbear.

Whenever the ASUS P8P67 Pro (B3) motherboard finally gets back in stock I'll write about how well it runs with the i5-2500K chipset (and even more importantly, how they both run with City of Heroes). From all the reviews and articles I could get my hands on that seemed the sweet spot combo of Sandy Bridge. So I'm holding off until they are both available, even though like you I have no plans for SLi or overclocking.

Actually the i7-2600K is $29 more than the i7-2600. It's the i5-2500K that's only $10 more than it's non-K counterpart.

The difference between the i7-2600 and the i5-2500? 2MB more Level 3 memory cache, 100 MHz of clock and Hyper Threading (Windows sees 8 cores instead 4). Actually buys you something in heavily multi-threaded applications but not so much in gaming, right now. May even hurt in some cases but that's the nature of HT.

Mobo : MSI P67A-C43 (B3) (From what is currently available, I feel more comfortable with this and should be the revised chipset board)
CPU : Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (K variant I had meant to link to before)
Tower : COOLER MASTER RC-692-KKN2
GPU : MSI N460GTX Hawk GeForce GTX 460

PSU : I did look into upping the PSU and the different ratings for efficiency (wasn't aware of this before actually).
For +~$20, there is Bronze certified Antec TruePower New TP-750 750W (though there is mention of the fan blowing down for this? Unsure of the impact that would have on this type of case.)
or Antec EarthWatts EA650 650W

Only sticking point is the memory AFAIK. Both are roughly the same price, but the 1600 should be faster, but requires changing BIOS settings. I'm not sure of how much of a performance boost the 1600 would give in a bona fide example, however.
Mem : G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 or
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066

Am I missing a showstopper? I'm looking forward to getting these ordered......but am looking for the blessing of those better informed than myself.

I've already forgotten about most of you

Choose the DDR3-1600 memory. Tweeking the memory settings in the BIOS is trivial, due to their use of XMP (eXtreme Memory Profiles).

The difference in efficiency between an 80 Plus rated PSU and an 80 Plus Bronze is 2% (80% Vs 82%). If the rig was using 300 watts DC, the difference on the AC side is around 10 watts (375 Vs 365.9 watts). The big difference is design philosophy. The TP-750 is designed so it can provide nearly 100% of it's rated out as 12 volts (744 watts). The Earthwatts 650 can only supply 540 watts at 12 volts, but since you are planning to use only one video card, that's more than sufficient so either one is fine.

Everything else looks fine.

Sounds good. I really do appreciate the insight.

Sounds like the efficiency premium is more suited for the hardcore performance pushers. One last thing I might look through is for another 700+W without the premium. Otherwise, if all goes well, I am thinking I'll be having a new system on the way by tonight

I've already forgotten about most of you

The thing about 80 Plus PSUs is that they are at least tested by an outside agency that they can put out the wattage they said they can. So personally I limit my choices to 80 Plus PSUs.

The 80 Plus Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum standards are newer than the original 80 Plus standard. Before the 80 Plus campaign, even some big name PSU companies had PSUs that were only 70-75% efficient. Still a number of dirt cheap PSUs are as low as 65%.

Remember the savings in watts due to efficiency isn't just saving you a bit in your power bill but that wasted energy is radiated off as heat from you power supply. A cooler PSU is a quieter PSU and to a lesser extent, a cooler case.

Don't really understand why you are looking for 700+ watts with a system that uses a 95 watt CPU and a 160 watt video card. It's not like you can add a 2nd video card.

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Didn't mention this last night, I was half a sleep when I posted, the only drawback with that motherboard, and drawback is really too harsh of a work, is the lack of any heatsinks on the CPU + RAM voltage regulators around the CPU socket. That's the circuitry that takes the 12 volt power from the 2x4 pin CPU power connector and converts it down to voltages used by the CPU and RAM.

Now slapping heatsinks on the VRM is a relatively new phenomenon and sometimes it gets to be a tad extreme (towering heatsinks of copper connected by heat pipes) and while this is a very basic no frills motherboard it still seems a little cheap on MSI's part. At least you don't have to worry about a 3rd party CPU cooler bumping into those heatsinks.

I believe in your guide one of the things you mentioned as overlooked was the power supply. It is kind of a double edged sword when it comes to the power supply, either not enough thought low or high to an extreme beyond possible upgrade.

Been a few days now with the new rig humming along (well not really, it's damned quiet for the number of fans in there ) and haven't had any issues *knocks on wood*

Turned up *everything* to max for CoX and it's a thing of beauty; went from being dead last in zoning into anything by a large factor to haven't teamed with anyone even coming close now And it really is a pretty game. Even the ship raid last night and Hami raid the other night was pure creamy smooth gold. Even using the onboard sound and it sounds great and didn't have any looping effects in various missions where I was near death's door in regard to sound loop crashes before.

Windows 7 is slowly coming into second habit like XP always was, and as long as everything keeps working like it should, I'm a happy kid again.

Haven't tweaked anything, but the only "interesting" thing I noticed was for the BIOS having the memory speed set to auto and not the specific 1600 speed of the memory; Not something I want to play with since everything is working great and am assuming that it is running the memory at the correct speed. Trying not to freak out on the CPU temps being registered with a Win7 gadget running but I don't have any comparisons of what it should be at. Nothing has beeped or died on me, so I'm thinking they are okay with the full load I have running.

Anyway, just want to thank everyone again. Made me feel real confident going back into the build process after such a long hiatus (if any seasoned pro saw me piecing everything together, they'd have been real nervous ). Before purchasing, I did check other sites and Microcenter, and Newegg had the best prices at the time except for a special on the processor which Microcenter had. So even got to save ~$50 on what I thought I'd be spending.

I've already forgotten about most of you

Well CPU-Z can show you the current memory settings. Probably some utility bundled with the motherboard can as well.

For CPU temps I would say anything under 60C is good, 50C great, even fantastic if you already tried OCing.