Make Build Up clickable in forms
It's unlikely that a change like this would happen since it would involve a fundamental change to the way the form powers work. You'd be more likely to see something like a "White Dwarf Build Up" power added than a change like this. Personally I don't really think this is a needed change, but the change as you're suggesting it be implemented is extremely unlikely just by virtue of the way Kheldian forms work. Accolade clicks have always worked in the forms but that's because of the way Accolades were coded (and I'm fairly certain this is actually a benign bug that the Devs just decided to label a feature).
My perspective on the matter of 'bringing PBs up a notch' is that Group Energy Flight should be replaced with an entirely new power. A shiny version of Air Superiority would be nice.
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I can use accolade clicks while in Dwarf and Nova...this one little change would definitely help bring the PB up a notch...how about it devs--throw the PB a bone and let us click build up in the forms?
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(((Duration/Recharge)*Build Up Mag)*Damage)+Damage
Assuming a Build Up that is slotted for recharge on an SO build (with Hasten running), that's 33.97 seconds recharge with an activation time of (arcanatime included) 1.32 seconds. So Incandescent Strike that ordinarily do 328.02 points of damage would - for the purposes of a Build Up-weighted attack chain, be listed as doing (((10/33.97)*.72) *328.02)+328.02=397.54 points of damage.
In other words, if you hit Incandescent Strike every time it was up, and hit Build Up every time it was up, 397.54 would loosely represent the average damage it would do if the damage it did when it was built-up was added to the damage it did all the times you used it when it wasn't built up.
Weight every attack in your attack chain that way and you can loosely approximate what your average dps would be with Build Up thrown in every 30 seconds or so.
With me so far? So for Bright Nova let's assume an attack chain of:
Bolt-Blast-Scatter-Bolt-Blast-Detonation
Which really isn't all that hard to pull off even without Hasten running.
Enhanced for damage, the powers look like:
Bolt: 113.2
Blast: 188.6
Scatter: 186.7
Detonation: 169.8
Now as it stands currently you use Build Up and switch to forms so the formula above must be modified accordingly:
((((Duration-Form Animation)/Recharge)*Build Up Mag)*Damage)+Damage
...to accommodate for the time lost to the form changing animation. This changes the damage figures to:
Bolt: 132.29
Blast: 220.48
Scatter: 218.27
Detonation: 198.43
So the Build Up-weighted dps for this attack chain is 101 dps (assuming Build Up in its current form).
If Novas could click Build Up in form, the numbers would change thus:
Bolt: 137.16
Blast: 228.59
Scatter: 226.31
Detonation: 205.73
....for a grand total of 104 dps for the same attack chain.
So no. It would not IMHO be worth asking for Build Up to be clicked in forms for nothing more than a 3 point increase in average dps.
WRT the Group Fly being replaced, the cottage rule pretty much forbids it, but I don't see how an Air Superiority clone would help all that much, as it would suffer from the same damage modifier as human form.
Group Fly - both the PB version and the pool version - are throwbacks to the times when they thought more people with non-fly travel powers would be in places like the Shadow Shard and Hami Raids, and wouldn't have day job flight packs, flight pack stores, recipes and temp powers earned by doing the Atlas Park Bank mission.
I would go so far as to say the ENTIRE CONCEPT of Group Fly is outdated and should be scrapped, or (because of that thrice-damned cottage rule) at least the penalties in accuracy, fly speed and endurance removed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Unsigned. Forms are already too op now that Fitness affects them.
So no. It would not IMHO be worth asking for Build Up to be clicked in forms for nothing more than a 3 point increase in average dps.
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I will say that I don't agree with light form locking you out of forms. I don't think you should be able to activate it while in a form, but it should bloody well carry over into them. Eclipse does, and that's not entirely game breaking...
I would go so far as to say the ENTIRE CONCEPT of Group Fly is outdated and should be scrapped, or (because of that thrice-damned cottage rule) at least the penalties in accuracy, fly speed and endurance removed.
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Here's my idea for Group Fly: Call it Group Hover, remove the -tohit and make it so everyone near you gains flight at hover speeds and a defense bonus on the order of maneuvers. Make the radius a bit smaller than it is now. This will allow group fly users to set up a sphere of protection that doesn't fill the room. People who want to hover under the safety cushion can, while melee people (particularly footstomping ones) can stay on the ground.
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Unsigned. Forms are already too op now that Fitness affects them.
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They're a little quicker, a little hardier, and Dwarf can jump a little higher. Nice? Yes. Overpowered? Hardly.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I agree, but I'd like to mention this is a dangerous road to start down. If build up is accessible in nova, why not also in dwarf? And if build up works in forms, why not let warshades use Sunless Mire in forms? What other powers should be usable in forms? Heals? Shields? Stygian Circle? Light Form? Eclipse?
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I will say that I don't agree with light form locking you out of forms. I don't think you should be able to activate it while in a form, but it should bloody well carry over into them. Eclipse does, and that's not entirely game breaking... |
So on the surface the alternatives would be to remove light form's costume shift and allow form shifting, or to unlock form powers in light form.
The first I wouldn't like because it removes one of the key side-benefits to light form - no rooting (which I THINK was because of the ball-of-light costume, as well) - plus, I LIKE being my own mini-mito.
The second would be problematic because so many of the human form powers are repeated in the forms. Bright Nova Detonation/Luminous Detonation, Proton Scatter/Bright Nova Scatter, Solar Flare, White Dwarf Flare, etc. etc.
Since Human Form wouldn't come with Nova's 45% damage buff, it wouldn't do any more damage with nova's attacks, and there would be too much redundancy.
Unlocking Dwarf Powers in Light form would be much less problematic. Since Human Form wouldn't come with Dwarf's hit point buff, it wouldn't benefit from being a tank form, BUT it would still have the third heal, and being able to swap Dwarf Flare for Solar Flare in an attack chain would be an appealing option. Dwarf Strike and Smite in combination with RS and IS would make for a dandy single target melee chain, and Light Form's costume would eliminate the need for new animations.
I don't see the point in unlocking nova's attacks without the damage boost to go with it, but I'd take dwarf form powers in light form any day.
On the other hand, if it were somehow possible to give human form's ranged powers a nova-like damage boost when in light form, I wouldn't say no to that, either.
But the raw power that would give light form on a tri-form shade would make me drool.
Here's my idea for Group Fly: Call it Group Hover, remove the -tohit and make it so everyone near you gains flight at hover speeds and a defense bonus on the order of maneuvers. Make the radius a bit smaller than it is now. This will allow group fly users to set up a sphere of protection that doesn't fill the room. People who want to hover under the safety cushion can, while melee people (particularly footstomping ones) can stay on the ground. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Nah just go rage.. it would increase human form dmg.. and go over into forms.. rage is soo much better for pb than build up
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Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Nah just go rage.. it would increase human form dmg.. and go over into forms.. rage is soo much better for pb than build up
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Here's the thing: we could go rounds all day about changes to Build Up that could - and would - increase Peacebringer damage, but if you take away the pet damage Peacebringers hands-down outdamage Warshades.
That's right. I said it, and bolded it for emphasis. Even with the double mires on black dwarf, white dwarf is the loser in the damage department by only 3 dps. Human Peacebringers FAR AND AWAY outdamage human Warshades outside of the pets. Even the Bright Nova does more than the Dark Nova until large groups are accounted for in the mire. It's all right there in the spreadsheets linked in the first post. Build Up vs. Mire is not the problem. Photon Seekers vs. Dark Extraction IS. So when seeking to bring some balance between the two archetypes, we'd be much better served, IMHO, to ask for Photon Seekers to be brought more in line with Dark Extraction, because otherwise you're just unbalancing Build Up to compensate for Dark Extraction. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
To quote myself from the other thread:
Buff the photon seekers, buff the archetype. |
also im still down for MOG light form revamp... that just my opinion though
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Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Fitness makes them overpowered? I wouldn't call a nova's 101-ish dps gimped, but fitness doesn't do anything for the forms that they couldn't already achieve before.
They're a little quicker, a little hardier, and Dwarf can jump a little higher. Nice? Yes. Overpowered? Hardly. |
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QR to OP;
Only if Warshades can have Mire and Eclipse in forms
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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I agree, but I'd like to mention this is a dangerous road to start down. If build up is accessible in nova, why not also in dwarf? And if build up works in forms, why not let warshades use Sunless Mire in forms? What other powers should be usable in forms? Heals? Shields? Stygian Circle? Light Form? Eclipse?
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Orbiting Death? It's a suggestion of mine that predates Dwarf Mire getting the Follow Up treatment, but I still stand by it. It'd make the crap power (serious, wtf is up with that end cost?) perhaps worth looking into. Especially if it was made to taunt while in Lobster form.
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I can summon pets, shoot lightning and give shields to other players while I'm a Dwarf or Nova...but I can't click Build Up.
Group Energy Flight... first, ought to be made a click pbaoe power and have its penalties removed. As it stands the way people need to stay near you pretty much kills any benefit the power 'might' even have. Even when there weren't lots of temp powers that replicated it, back in the day there were a lot of people getting dropped in the shadow shard trying to use it. Until people stopped going there at all because rularuu were hard and dumpster puppies were not. But even once it's a click and thus won't drop people who happen to lag a bit... a lot of powers require the user to be on the ground - including solar flare or white dwarf flare - so flying actually isn't necessarily a buff to a wide range of characters. If I had to choose between flying and using foot stomp on my super strength brute, foot stomp would win every time. Therefore... instead of making it actually grant flight, make it a flight speed buff instead of granting flight. And since that's still pretty weak, give it some actual stat buffs. Since it's 'energy,' potential things it could buff based on that are recovery, regen, recharge, and damage - maybe even be a little unique by adding an energy proc to attacks, like fiery embrace. Since it's 'flight' it could also buff defense, though I think defense is running amok in the game right now and wouldn't be surprised if the devs were hesitant to give out more, except maybe in token amounts that wouldn't be much of a help at all to peacebringers.
Bottom line... I'd personally like to see group energy flight become a click pbaoe +fly speed, +recovery, +regen buff. I'd take that power, and use it as something other than exhibit one of what's wrong with peacebringers. Just sayin'.
I saw a suggestion awhile ago, that wasn't my idea, to make PB buildup a 'mini rage' type of power before - give it a longer duration, take away some of the buff. Something like a 1-minute uptime 5-10% tohit, 60% damage buff with a 3-minute base recharge speed would probably work out okay. A shorter base recharge would have to be compensated by not making it stack, I think, since the only thing that keeps stacking rage from being completely out of hand is is damage crash. I don't think that kind of intrusive, red light/green light mechanic needs to be repeated anywhere (even though I quite enjoy my super strength brute). Anyway, I definitely am behind that idea. I haven't mathed up how much it would help, but it'd be a lot friendlier to shapeshifting than BU is, and that's a start.
If we could get dwarf powers in lightform... I'd have to renew the cry for solar flare and radiant strike to do knock down instead of knockback. You couldn't chain dwarf flare and solar flare very well when solar flare made them fly all over. And radiant strike's KB can hurt your 'practical' DPS as you have to chase your target down to hit again with your much-stronger human melee attacks. Melee ATs had most of their KB turned to KD for a reason. I'd probably even hate super strength if it still KB'd!
Photon seekers... as they stand... just don't do what we need them to. Which is compete with extracted essence. Since I doubt the devs will actually make them essence-like pets, I would like to see them made over into a more effective AOE. The electric control set and now the ion judgement have inspired the idea in me to make photon seekers a 'chain' or 'jumping' AOE power, where you zap out a couple kooshballs that immediately hit something, and then jump around from there. Same sort of 'glowy balls seeking things out' theme, but that works instantly and without the current seekers' wonkiness on going off, hitting targets, hitting the same targets, or having a too-small radius. Seekers' recharge time and damage actually are already balanced around being a "nuke" power, the biggest problem I've always had with them is that despite their long recharge and unreliability they've got a terribly small radius compared to other nuke powers. Solving that in this manner doesn't change the character or appearance of the power much, just makes it effective for its apparent purpose.
Probably still wouldn't close the gap with warshades, though.
Edit: What probably would work, and make peacebringers a pretty snazzy AT in one fell swoop, would be to make it over into a full auto/rain of arrows type of nuke, that could be gotten down to a 30 second or shorter recharge time without enormous IO investments. Even 45 seconds to a minute, like hail of bullets, would be a pretty huge improvement to the AT. (Yes I know those nukes can be up even faster if you want to make them be). In fact, thinking about it more, this seems almost like a magic bullet of a change: Photon seekers get turned into a "jumping chain lightning" type nuke with a longer cast animation, 16 target cap, and 90 to 120 second base recharge.
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I could get behind DBZ Beamspam Photon Seekers. It'd take animation work though, but the art and animation guys have always done good work; and if they ever give us our color tintable alternate animation using customization that would be a perfect time to work on something like this.
PB Rage very much yes. Losing so much of the buildup switching forms is a pain in the backside, I'd accept longer cooldown for longer duration and lessened effect. Group Energy flight becoming some sorta click buff is fine by me too, it'd help shore up one of the gaps I find in the "jack of all trades" monicker we get told we are. We've got two controls (Pulsar/Incadescent strike), Melee, Range, all we really lack is group support, and something like you suggest for a power nobody took even when it was in a pool would help that a great deal.
Since we're on the subject of "changes we'd make to fix PB's" ive got a couple suggestions of my own...
1) Pulsar becomes mag 3 all the time, and either it becomes a hold, or Incandescent strike becomes a stun. I don't care which makes the switch, but both abilities should have synergy with each other. Pulsar would hit the minions and lieutenants, and Incandescent strike could then be used to CC a boss.
2) Radiant Strike and Solar Flare are knockdown now, not knockback. These two abilites are as much a hindrance to us as to the group. Our melee attacks make it hard for us to melee, that's just counter intuitive and should have been fixed ages ago.
3) Quantum Flight's end cost reduced. Just a no brainer here.
4) Shields changed to Defense at a lesser rate, and cosmic balance gets a solo effect. Id suggest 30 res, 30 dmg, and mag 3 protection. Every teammate added reduces those numbers by 10/10/1, and that teammate adds their normal bonus instead. So a defender added makes the numbers 20/40/2. Add a blaster and it becomes 20/30/1, and add an EAT and it becomes 10/20/0 with 10% recharge resist.
5) Dwarf form gets a taunt aura a la Invinc/RttC. Defense or Regen for enemies around them.
Anyways, those are my suggestions to add to the pile. A lot of them can even be ported over to Warshades.
They only thing I wish they would do to PB's is to give them some form of Immob i dont care if they add it to Pulsar or Proton Scatter. I just want to be able to stun and Immob. That is why when heroes could get PPP I wanted Kheldians to get them too, but we all know how that went I guess I played a controller to long...lol
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I think that the answer to a lot of the issues people are talking about would be with the form change interupt time. Perhaps if this was faster, using build up or switching to dwarf for a heal would be less painless. Serveral people have commented with numbers showing that build up in forms wouldn't change PB dps. Perhaps, could they male Build Up an auto power and give PBs a damage bonus? (maybe not the same numbers though). It could be balanced on the WS side by making that long recharge human mire an auto power (maybe it could act like Shield's Against All Odds and provide bonuses to foes in range).
For the idea of taking Group Energy Flight away and maybe replace it with a Air Superiority look alike, I dont want to have another power to maybe want and slot with the 0 slots I have left to give. I do agree that if the -tohit debuff, end cost and fly speed were changed It would make more people happy with it. I took it on my PB mainly because I had to take another power and since I would have no slots, I looked for a power that without enhancements, would be worth the power choice. I chose GEF for helping team members in Shard or other areas where SS and SJers have trouble or when I help new players get badges etc...and it kinda looks cool.
Orivon: Lv50+3 PB, Noviro: Lv50+1 WS, and many many more...
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PB Rage very much yes. Losing so much of the buildup switching forms is a pain in the backside, I'd accept longer cooldown for longer duration and lessened effect. Group Energy flight becoming some sorta click buff is fine by me too, it'd help shore up one of the gaps I find in the "jack of all trades" monicker we get told we are. We've got two controls (Pulsar/Incadescent strike), Melee, Range, all we really lack is group support, and something like you suggest for a power nobody took even when it was in a pool would help that a great deal.
Since we're on the subject of "changes we'd make to fix PB's" ive got a couple suggestions of my own... 1) Pulsar becomes mag 3 all the time, and either it becomes a hold, or Incandescent strike becomes a stun. I don't care which makes the switch, but both abilities should have synergy with each other. Pulsar would hit the minions and lieutenants, and Incandescent strike could then be used to CC a boss. 2) Radiant Strike and Solar Flare are knockdown now, not knockback. These two abilites are as much a hindrance to us as to the group. Our melee attacks make it hard for us to melee, that's just counter intuitive and should have been fixed ages ago. 3) Quantum Flight's end cost reduced. Just a no brainer here. 4) Shields changed to Defense at a lesser rate, and cosmic balance gets a solo effect. Id suggest 30 res, 30 dmg, and mag 3 protection. Every teammate added reduces those numbers by 10/10/1, and that teammate adds their normal bonus instead. So a defender added makes the numbers 20/40/2. Add a blaster and it becomes 20/30/1, and add an EAT and it becomes 10/20/0 with 10% recharge resist. 5) Dwarf form gets a taunt aura a la Invinc/RttC. Defense or Regen for enemies around them. Anyways, those are my suggestions to add to the pile. A lot of them can even be ported over to Warshades. |
As far as 5, not sure how I feel about that yet. It's a cool idea. Just curious as to which buff or debuff would be needed most. WSs would probably have an aura that steals from
The enemy (keeping the themes going) i.e. -speed/-recharge, or maybe hp drain/transfer. Pbs would be more of something they do to a target. Haha maybe you could be surrounded with mini photon seekers that do damage or a low ranged AoE attack, that would provide some more damage for the dwarf form and taunting (trying to stay in theme).
Sorry for any typos, on my iPhone atm.
Orivon: Lv50+3 PB, Noviro: Lv50+1 WS, and many many more...
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Unsigned. Forms are already too op now that Fitness affects them.
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And fitness affects everyone so it's not like Kheldian is the only AT benefiting from it.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
At this point, I say any buff is a buff. Giving Build Up to Nova and Dwarf makes sense to me.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
At this point, I say any buff is a buff. Giving Build Up to Nova and Dwarf makes sense to me.
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It isn't enough to merit the work.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I agree with 1, 2, and 3. But with 4 I dont think making the shields defense is the way to go. Humam only builds would be so squishy and to me high defense is only delayed death in higher trials. Because when a strong attack gets through by the streak breaker, it would hit hard having little to no resistence to anything. One thing that makes PB's so survivable is the fact that they have/can have capped hitpoints and capped resistence. With some of the new incarnate powers you can add defense or even make your regen higher (my PB's Drawf regen is around 45hp/s)
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As far as 5, not sure how I feel about that yet. It's a cool idea. Just curious as to which buff or debuff would be needed most. WSs would probably have an aura that steals from The enemy (keeping the themes going) i.e. -speed/-recharge, or maybe hp drain/transfer. Pbs would be more of something they do to a target. Haha maybe you could be surrounded with mini photon seekers that do damage or a low ranged AoE attack, that would provide some more damage for the dwarf form and taunting (trying to stay in theme). Sorry for any typos, on my iPhone atm. |
I cant talk for Warshades, but I imagine they like it for another sunless mire. Less duration, but dropping OUT of a form takes way less time than shifting IN to one.
Sorry one more thing to add: Pb Rage idea...would that include the end crash as well as the -damage? If so then I don't agree with it cause those are reasons I don't play SS toons. |
I can use accolade clicks while in Dwarf and Nova...this one little change would definitely help bring the PB up a notch...how about it devs--throw the PB a bone and let us click build up in the forms?