Quote:
Really? Honestly I would love to be proven wrong, but if you're gonna leave in the middle of it instead of replying that's a shame. |
Originally Posted by Desmodos
This conversation is going nowhere.
|
So to sum it all up, no matter how much offense you can fit in a DA build, Elec Armor can fit more of it, thanks to its greater pool of endurance and base recharge. The extra endurance lets you get away with more mitigation from IO's too, but it won't be enough to make it better than DA's mitigation. Hence DA has more survivability potential and Elec Armor has more offensive potential.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Hey Auroxis, did you ever run a character named Black-Op who sat in the Siren's Call hospital all the time?
Quote:
I just made this similar as possible build for Spines/Elec. I tried to stay as close as possible to the above Spines/DA build. It has more than sufficient levels of protection(softcapped), and more recharge and damage.|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1434;692;1384;HEX;| |78DA6D93596F125114C7EF8541CA56B6B2540A14BA50A04CA1ADCB934D959A684A4| |24BE29B2123BDD24911C85013F5C9CFE0833EBAB5559F5D3F8C5FC1E5D5B8E09973| |2E1483A4CDEFCEFFFECFB9E79E3353B9577633F67083F1C92B2DADD7ABD71A86D6E| |D0AC356D19A7AC3B1DB31F483D9CDCE969D31161A6CD62BA22584BA73576FB57AB1| |A15A16B745BB27D4B2661CD4378D3B1DC37FADBD2F0CD13E54070B77B5D369A9DB4| |2EBEAEDA6071FAEEACDFD4378F20EB6F684D1DBD7BB4E7CAE7585D80B6C75F5867A| |B9A53D10F58AD63B14C6FD28149483FFA76665F8EB5B591590668B3B845D44A686C| |89A3E2E7D09586498334D4822B229C433BBB4B1BE8DFFB4305662965F84DF88337F| |10937D448A594DE420CA4AD96D568A52284AF95FD41C453D87289B3CCB76843BEE6| |3C20962FE15E13562F10D220F517679133B5D214B17CAD1154A74A165F039C8C71D| |97008A956557F1E0306CB9E4962BC44DA974811C11D8F2504DCCF3190F2C80E4E51| |C0FF40620419CF92298C717464C5DA4D82330FA6517FCD485007521405D98A22E84| |A90BF3D40515A282146509523161594C5492832524871CA2216768C8191A728E866| |C055F44A68A988B388BCA9BE72415B04C4BCB349D76569E32E00A586264516276AC| |71C6459840241C888213E1077B5C668C53C684CC34E009589272D0C955BCFCEC1A6| |19D708EDEA6F3844FCC441AA2D232713A8FD2DC3F28816101DFD63E5B20E905CC6E| |498E6FE907667B09529E2425BF8CD27281A0125668CC45C431D8556957DF62D2957| |784F7840F74F84744006A285291AC98426946197E92F0073F9654861F5F3F37B65B| |1C534A63CADA98B23EA66C8F295565F831338ECA172728B25C5EC072BF9D4A9CDFC| |0F94D5CC72FE8EBA87909CDDF4F250B7F820D9B784CED7B8470F898F95AE3553782| |A0C86B579D667E5ADF1C596B23EB5B23EBBF0C96E6EF| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1418;685;1370;HEX;| |78DA6593DB4E13511486F7B4532AA5851E28E7B6B41C0AC50E14502F8D0A26469A1| |4ABDE99662C5B683296665A13F5CA173051D13B8D120F2FA0461F4A0EEAA5625DB3| |FE0D341912F2ADBDD6BF4E7B778A0F5782423CB928B4DE2B96D96C56CA55DB6C34A| |4ED2B9A9BB5AAF00B21E2C7BE4A515A521AEB0F6A96D54C9D7857E43D596F4A63D5| |92D5965DAB562ED9F7B7EDC8B5FA96B465BD651C1B81D2F6B665941B526E04D95C9| |366A356DF0CF1E16A6D73AB45A7BEE3D086B49B5BB54674B551AB1A972DF3B1AC14| |CD664BDA8F8668A81CFDBF75A6E3BFB657940819E12933A2EB8CFE1B8C1F2182A67| |44932B2424F031946578AF1CEAF64A2EDD384578882E86A7B1C9CF9071C31027F81| |3F8C3DAAEE45759F175941C88348EE45562FB2C2C8DAA55E3EF4F2F85E932B26C26| |F18D139E108F6A9AC5F0DEDC7D0490C3D89692731FB01E9BA95AE3BD919C9423E0B| |79861AF640A7F5A0453F304191104611A1515EE090CE7D4ADC37484642241739F28| |1C411B56D04DB0E60A321EC97C3D2395C410EBBFFA47A3135640C5D476E690EC66E| |0265C600558FABBEF1385C47C269AF516450BDF520DE7A088F3C8147CEE2E5BDA41| |B569D86711D23B88E34AE238DEBF845138D422746F33C914EA909B83C09344FF633| |A6C38C4F2448A9DF47EA3C2F36BE042C02CB8CF439C6C4772EFB3BE4CCA5F14E99A| |788EC3022546F4A6D3B8586D317E8A47BC52E25CDA856332F3934FB8A91DF015E30| |0ACF80E78CF79435872C7DAEC03DCE2E00F380C1C8E7191F496E28B9F199879DFF0| |27C05BE310A58244AE32EA82B5B48B36B4C777D81D378952C5E6516AF92D24FBEC0| |76EE34C739B6A998CB537079965C9E659767CDE529E9275FB4D0D8D31D16CEAF962| |7D90B5054EB8C1E747A6EF39DEEBB4487A71E4D1BE77BF00077038E0FC5CD0EFB4E| |875DEAB0AFC7284BD9FF01BAE4F056| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I just made this similar as possible build for Spines/Elec. I tried to stay as close as possible to the above Spines/DA build. It has more than sufficient levels of protection(softcapped), and more recharge and damage.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1434;692;1384;HEX;| |78DA6D93596F125114C7EF8541CA56B6B2540A14BA50A04CA1ADCB934D959A684A4| |24BE29B2123BDD24911C85013F5C9CFE0833EBAB5559F5D3F8C5FC1E5D5B8E09973| |2E1483A4CDEFCEFFFECFB9E79E3353B9577633F67083F1C92B2DADD7ABD71A86D6E| |D0AC356D19A7AC3B1DB31F483D9CDCE969D31161A6CD62BA22584BA73576FB57AB1| |A15A16B745BB27D4B2661CD4378D3B1DC37FADBD2F0CD13E54070B77B5D369A9DB4| |2EBEAEDA6071FAEEACDFD4378F20EB6F684D1DBD7BB4E7CAE7585D80B6C75F5867A| |B9A53D10F58AD63B14C6FD28149483FFA76665F8EB5B591590668B3B845D44A686C| |89A3E2E7D09586498334D4822B229C433BBB4B1BE8DFFB4305662965F84DF88337F| |10937D448A594DE420CA4AD96D568A52284AF95FD41C453D87289B3CCB76843BEE6| |3C20962FE15E13562F10D220F517679133B5D214B17CAD1154A74A165F039C8C71D| |97008A956557F1E0306CB9E4962BC44DA974811C11D8F2504DCCF3190F2C80E4E51| |C0FF40620419CF92298C717464C5DA4D82330FA6517FCD485007521405D98A22E84| |A90BF3D40515A282146509523161594C5492832524871CA2216768C8191A728E866| |C055F44A68A988B388BCA9BE72415B04C4BCB349D76569E32E00A586264516276AC| |71C6459840241C888213E1077B5C668C53C684CC34E009589272D0C955BCFCEC1A6| |19D708EDEA6F3844FCC441AA2D232713A8FD2DC3F28816101DFD63E5B20E905CC6E| |498E6FE907667B09529E2425BF8CD27281A0125668CC45C431D8556957DF62D2957| |784F7840F74F84744006A285291AC98426946197E92F0073F9654861F5F3F37B65B| |1C534A63CADA98B23EA66C8F295565F831338ECA172728B25C5EC072BF9D4A9CDFC| |0F94D5CC72FE8EBA87909CDDF4F250B7F820D9B784CED7B8470F898F95AE3553782| |A0C86B579D667E5ADF1C596B23EB5B23EBBF0C96E6EF| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
OH...now you want to present evidence...
Incidentally, you posted a Spines/DA build.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Whooops, lol. Fixed.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Just so I understand correctly. You've skipped both Impale and Ripper to make room for Assault? This build completely abandons single target damage for 10% more AoE damage? |
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1434;692;1384;HEX;| |78DA6D93596F125114C7EF8541CA56B6B2540A14BA50A04CA 1ADCB934D959A684A4| |24BE29B2123BDD24911C85013F5C9CFE0833EBAB5559F5D3F 8C5FC1E5D5B8E09973| |2E1483A4CDEFCEFFFECFB9E79E3353B9577633F67083F1C92 B2DADD7ABD71A86D6E| |D0AC356D19A7AC3B1DB31F483D9CDCE969D31161A6CD62BA2 2584BA73576FB57AB1| |A15A16B745BB27D4B2661CD4378D3B1DC37FADBD2F0CD13E5 4070B77B5D369A9DB4| |2EBEAEDA6071FAEEACDFD4378F20EB6F684D1DBD7BB4E7CAE 7585D80B6C75F5867A| |B9A53D10F58AD63B14C6FD28149483FFA76665F8EB5B59159 0668B3B845D44A686C| |89A3E2E7D09586498334D4822B229C433BBB4B1BE8DFFB430 5662965F84DF88337F| |10937D448A594DE420CA4AD96D568A52284AF95FD41C453D8 7289B3CCB76843BEE6| |3C20962FE15E13562F10D220F517679133B5D214B17CAD115 4A74A165F039C8C71D| |97008A956557F1E0306CB9E4962BC44DA974811C11D8F2504 DCCF3190F2C80E4E51| |C0FF40620419CF92298C717464C5DA4D82330FA6517FCD485 007521405D98A22E84| |A90BF3D40515A282146509523161594C5492832524871CA22 16768C8191A728E866| |C055F44A68A988B388BCA9BE72415B04C4BCB349D76569E32 E00A586264516276AC| |71C6459840241C888213E1077B5C668C53C684CC34E009589 272D0C955BCFCEC1A6| |19D708EDEA6F3844FCC441AA2D232713A8FD2DC3F28816101 DFD63E5B20E905CC6E| |498E6FE907667B09529E2425BF8CD27281A0125668CC45C43 1D8556957DF62D2957| |784F7840F74F84744006A285291AC98426946197E92F0073F 9654861F5F3F37B65B| |1C534A63CADA98B23EA66C8F295565F831338ECA172728B25 C5EC072BF9D4A9CDFC| |0F94D5CC72FE8EBA87909CDDF4F250B7F820D9B784CED7B84 70F898F95AE3553782| |A0C86B579D667E5ADF1C596B23EB5B23EBBF0C96E6EF| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
That has nothing to do with Dark Armor vs Electric Armor, your build gimps Spines.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
Could you please post a build for comparison?
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Just so I understand correctly. You've skipped both Impale and Ripper to make room for Assault? This build completely abandons single target damage for 10% more AoE damage?
That has nothing to do with Dark Armor vs Electric Armor, your build gimps Spines. |
Quote:
A build with out Ripper and Impale...no, I'd never play it.
|
Originally Posted by Chuckles07
Could you please post a build for comparison?
|
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
So you're unable to post a build that's better then that? From the way you've been talking, it should be easy.
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
A build with out Ripper and Impale...no, I'd never play it.
|
Quote:
I've made no claims regarding superiority of either Spines/Elec vs Spines/DA. Auroxis has made claims, the validity of which I doubt. Before any comparisons could be made, builds needed to be posted so we can all see what's actually being compared. That's all I've asked for in this discussion.|
Originally Posted by Chuckles07
So you're unable to post a build that's better then that? From the way you've been talking, it should be easy.
|
Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks.
Since it's been requested, here's the build I'm considering but I am not really happy with. Again, not really comparable.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1431;687;1374;HEX;| |78DA6593594F135114C7EFD0A9A565EB4229086D69014B17861650E31645AB89861| |A0CC637D38C7085C6A1343398A84F7E065F5D1014BF8071F9307E059777977AE6FC| |2FA5C94CDAFCEE3DDBFD9F33736B4FAAFD423CBF2CB4C16B96E938F5B575DB6CB5A| |4EDAF999B8DF5DEAA74B64DCB32034288F891AF5E939694C69DC70DCB72C63BD6AA| |7C289B8E34AAA6FDA8BE6C6FEFD8919BCD2D69CBE6AE71B4E85FDDD9B18C1569B61| |ACDCD01DEDC686C6EEDD26EE8C8B5216D67ABD10AF17EAD25E546F47AABB16E5CB5| |CC67B25E339D5D693F1D254125FAEFB9CAF869EBA2D0234445E839609671220F141| |979375CE3709FC8D222277A53409A11CA300A14A721CEAFFDE6D4D01F46FF5FE01F| |63B00D089F8BB794E58318BF0F59616485911545561459C3C82A52965F69F243D33| |0348D40D308341D505C40B51A30B8C2E81C30CF3859062A8C12C50655D920CA4EA0| |6C0A6553283B42717D88D3FABE716A2AAEB948906700078A0178E6C834C48369FB8| |722243F2926C3401448704F99DB5C217397F19EB2226A9A11F49EC15CA630A5298C| |670AE399C65C0CCA8A2961315751524C9FA59DEE13FBE48A4399167F49493131FD8| |AA19127A13427DAF48843B28CA9B18D9DE7034E9D032E001719B94B8C790A1FC7A9| |FA781FF7341162E4028C7C2F1064F8283CA94426132C32BFC09E0FE449AB8F21BDC| |0B50B8BC012701AEFE90CCEFD2AF8ABA5ACACAA9745D325D574845C33CA3503574E| |B90EE835CDAAAE67B9EB776429AAAE8BAFB974E98031F706D803F61987146EA870E| |3239BE63F892E5D95CFC0174696A494959472111E6042EFDC47FAB94AD27AE7CAB5| |0B1E6FD963A9782C8B1ECB92C7B2E2B1ACEAEA58B2686C09863BD7B3FD3DD4B9E0C| |AFBF3D8A269F778BC3DB7183F3CB1BFBA635FF0FBEB99E4FE1F845C1BCE30BBD6F7| |BBD6AB5DEBE3E74A8CF295F53F416EFEDE| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
For the record, speaking straight to you, Desmodos, the build I originally posted was a personal build. One I designed to run with teams on cranked settings to be as survivable as possible given how easy it is for one Scrapper, doing loads of damage, to grab all the aggro in a heartbeat. Personally I hate Impale's animation and time, and I've never been much to care for Ripper, either. Knowing that I'd be teaming in situations where my burst AoE was more important than my (in my opinion) lack luster ability to take out individual targets, I focused the build in that fashion. Since the whole issue of "needing a build to go against" came up, I merely pulled the one that was convenient--in this case, my own. Is it possible to build something similar including Ripper and Impale? Definitely. In fact, you could easily replace Fire Blast/Fire Ball to do it and not cause any real alterations.
So yes, I could easily be ... uh, "crazy" if you will. The strange part is that no one else bothered to see that I'd done something so outlandish and tried to correct it 
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
:O I didn't skip them on my build! I'm not nucking futs! \o/
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I've made no claims regarding superiority of either Spines/Elec vs Spines/DA. Auroxis has made claims, the validity of which I doubt. Before any comparisons could be made, builds needed to be posted so we can all see what's actually being compared. That's all I've asked for in this discussion.
Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks. Since it's been requested, here's the build I'm considering but I am not really happy with. Again, not really comparable. Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1431;687;1374;HEX;| |78DA6593594F135114C7EFD0A9A565EB4229086D69014B17861650E31645AB89861| |A0CC637D38C7085C6A1343398A84F7E065F5D1014BF8071F9307E059777977AE6FC| |2FA5C94CDAFCEE3DDBFD9F33736B4FAAFD423CBF2CB4C16B96E938F5B575DB6CB5A| |4EDAF999B8DF5DEAA74B64DCB32034288F891AF5E939694C69DC70DCB72C63BD6AA| |7C289B8E34AAA6FDA8BE6C6FEFD8919BCD2D69CBE6AE71B4E85FDDD9B18C1569B61| |ACDCD01DEDC686C6EEDD26EE8C8B5216D67ABD10AF17EAD25E546F47AABB16E5CB5| |CC67B25E339D5D693F1D254125FAEFB9CAF869EBA2D0234445E839609671220F141| |979375CE3709FC8D222277A53409A11CA300A14A721CEAFFDE6D4D01F46FF5FE01F| |63B00D089F8BB794E58318BF0F59616485911545561459C3C82A52965F69F243D33| |0348D40D308341D505C40B51A30B8C2E81C30CF3859062A8C12C50655D920CA4EA0| |6C0A6553283B42717D88D3FABE716A2AAEB948906700078A0178E6C834C48369FB8| |722243F2926C3401448704F99DB5C217397F19EB2226A9A11F49EC15CA630A5298C| |670AE399C65C0CCA8A2961315751524C9FA59DEE13FBE48A4399167F49493131FD8| |AA19127A13427DAF48843B28CA9B18D9DE7034E9D032E001719B94B8C790A1FC7A9| |FA781FF7341162E4028C7C2F1064F8283CA94426132C32BFC09E0FE449AB8F21BDC| |0B50B8BC012701AEFE90CCEFD2AF8ABA5ACACAA9745D325D574845C33CA3503574E| |B90EE835CDAAAE67B9EB776429AAAE8BAFB974E98031F706D803F61987146EA870E| |3239BE63F892E5D95CFC0174696A494959472111E6042EFDC47FAB94AD27AE7CAB5| |0B1E6FD963A9782C8B1ECB92C7B2E2B1ACEAEA58B2686C09863BD7B3FD3DD4B9E0C| |AFBF3D8A269F778BC3DB7183F3CB1BFBA635FF0FBEB99E4FE1F845C1BCE30BBD6F7| |BBD6AB5DEBE3E74A8CF295F53F416EFEDE| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I never said this is how I would build a Spines/Elec, I just tried to stay as close as possible to JP's build so a comparison could be made. And like JP said you can include Impale and Ripper and the comparative numbers won't change.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks.
|
This is why I didn't want to get into build wars on this subject, as builds are a personal thing with lots of variables, and it's hard to compare builds of different flavors.
Also, I took the build you posted and tried to make it as comparable as possible on Spines/Elec. Again, more recharge and damage.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1430;698;1396;HEX;| |78DA6593596F125114C7EF740669692950A47481B2B5D29632405B356E31566A620| |20915F5CD90915ECB24534A6630519FFC0226AE4F6AB46AFD02C6E543D9457D74C1| |33E7DCE2182621BF73CF76FFF75C6EF94E7188B1FBE799347CD1D02CAB56AD9B5AA| |BC54D5759DBD0EBFD456E6D6A86A1B91963A1C358ADCC0DCED5B5DBBA6158B1AEB7| |C86FF1A6C5D55583D7DBA65EAF5D3037B7CCC0E566839BBCD9560F0D4F656BCB50A| |B2DCED71DA617CD4BFA46A3AD37377CB82A716D9D9B56436F8DACB6F4BABA6268F7| |78ADAC596D6EDE1D034919F8BDB2B5E1D751D87C1F6305A6A409B3882373840CE2A| |B1732254C9759128C34EB4B106288FE29C42EE44994E7927E62A9E71762E837E10F| |62B84360B28DD7204626312E595451C44FC57E2A1EA1E2112ADE83BD5C42938B341| |D2515A3A4699414BE81EE6E7154B78AA5FD05C4589690434CE411FBD07640B41D10| |6DA95184BA4F51F724F41CA43C69D01E698115082988786943E69DC4731CC0DA279| |27D6130A22CBE889177901C10130BD0C126E8EC093A7B8A0692A211A46804DFA05F| |50880C5E936CD7541511BF8A982629DBD03D4452A4D073280DB2E917080922618AC| |8E10A20C9226B88C415C45C15B10379E3627AE3A771F363A70867086711E97388EF| |206C9284B1C92C6A90A14354688D8A11D25CE334D7691AE87BC88B897F416C11BBC| |D2F119609C7110B2710B92FD85D81AAA4986C3284935D38092B45660108CD88D00C| |85D222B40D3267C55EB30F7162738F100B8F11D92784A7846788B75E7A3CF6E1322| |F71FB1D70A9623CEA0774E53E3287BEC227C267C40F48CFE343EAB0FC033C4744E9| |BE4499D14524E822D2FF5D444CE93EC1CEFCBF1A7BD981663D9E428F67A9C7B3DCE| |329F5782A8AD8163C127A06FCDDE7DAD9F5741FBC88EE3B3DD771EA7B3D49074E4F| |1C4773D363DF1375D51CF60D875D71D8F89582502A1C7F010F99F810| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Oh, I didn't look at your build from the onset, as I knew I wouldn't like it. Not a dig against you, just recall us having a difference of opinions from prior discussions. Your character, your time, and you should play it as you see fit. I still say your nuts, but you play Dark Armor so it's a given.|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
For the record, speaking straight to you, Desmodos, the build I originally posted was a personal build.
large snip for sake of brevity So yes, I could easily be ... uh, "crazy" if you will. The strange part is that no one else bothered to see that I'd done something so outlandish and tried to correct it |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I never said this is how I would build a Spines/Elec, I just tried to stay as close as possible to JP's build so a comparison could be made. And like JP said you can include Impale and Ripper and the comparative numbers won't change.
This is why I didn't want to get into build wars on this subject, as builds are a personal thing with lots of variables, and it's hard to compare builds of different flavors. |
The instant you claim /Electric Armor can out damage /Dark Armor you've essentially created a build war. Now we can make claims with out builds that will prove nothing, hence the first half of this discussion.
For the sake of comparing apples to apples you posted a comparable build, which is what I suggested. I just never got past the "I'd never play this" factor, for which I apologize.
Quote:
| Also, I took the build you posted and tried to make it as comparable as possible on Spines/Elec. Again, more recharge and damage. |
Granted, I won't be attempting a comparison until after work...and some dinner. 
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
I did actually state it, but it's not like you're the only one that made a fumble(I had JP's DA build posted twice for like 8 hours there?).
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Would have been nice had you stated so, but it retrospect I should have seen the build similarities. Serves me right for reading and posting in the forums between work and dinner.
|
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Apologies for the late reply, busy weak with RL stuffs...
I should point out I hate all this maths stuff...gives me a massive headache. On that note, please double check my numbers as I often cross multiply when I should be dividing by zero.
To make apt comparisons, I've made some modifications to my build for to more closely match what Auroxis is getting at. Specifically, both builds need to have 15% damage bonus from sets and both builds need to have Musculature Radial Paragon slotted. While I still question the wisdom of building either Spines in this fashion, that's a separate debate.
For the sake of clarity, I am comparing the build Auroxis posted in response to my build and a my modified build.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1430;698;1396;HEX;| |78DA6593596F125114C7EF740669692950A47481B2B5D2963 2405B356E31566A620| |20915F5CD90915ECB24534A6630519FFC0226AE4F6AB46AFD 02C6E543D9457D74C1| |33E7DCE2182621BF73CF76FFF75C6EF94E7188B1FBE799347 CD1D02CAB56AD9B5AA| |BC54D5759DBD0EBFD456E6D6A86A1B91963A1C358ADCC0DCE D5B5DBBA6158B1AEB7| |C86FF1A6C5D55583D7DBA65EAF5D3037B7CCC0E566839BBCD 9560F0D4F656BCB50A| |B2DCED71DA617CD4BFA46A3AD37377CB82A716D9D9B56436F 8DACB6F4BABA6268F7| |78ADAC596D6EDE1D034919F8BDB2B5E1D751D87C1F6305A6A 409B3882373840CE2A| |B1732254C9759128C34EB4B106288FE29C42EE44994E7927E 62A9E71762E837E10F| |62B84360B28DD7204626312E595451C44FC57E2A1EA1E2112 ADE83BD5C42938B341| |D2515A3A4699414BE81EE6E7154B78AA5FD05C4589690434C E411FBD07640B41D10| |6DA95184BA4F51F724F41CA43C69D01E69811508298878694 3E69DC4731CC0DA279| |27D6130A22CBE889177901C10130BD0C126E8EC093A7B8A06 92A211A46804DFA05F| |50880C5E936CD7541511BF8A982629DBD03D4452A4D073280 DB2E917080922618AC| |8E10A20C9226B88C415C45C15B10379E3627AE3A771F363A7 0867086711E97388EF| |206C9284B1C92C6A90A14354688D8A11D25CE334D7691AE87 BC88B897F416C11BBC| |D2F119609C7110B2710B92FD85D81AAA4986C3284935D3809 2B45660108CD88D00C| |85D222B40D3267C55EB30F7162738F100B8F11D92784A7846 788B75E7A3CF6E1322| |F71FB1D70A9623CEA0774E53E3287BEC227C267C40F48CFE3 43EAB0FC033C4744E9| |BE4499D14524E822D2FF5D444CE93EC1CEFCBF1A7BD981663 D9E428F67A9C7B3DCE| |329F5782A8AD8163C127A06FCDDE7DAD9F5741FBC88EE3B3D D771EA7B3D49074E4F| |1C4773D363DF1375D51CF60D875D71D8F89582502A1C7F010 F99F810| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|[/code] |
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1432;691;1382;HEX;| |78DA6593DB4E13511486F730538102D203A52087D252EC91A105D4788A51AB89861| |A0CC63BD38CB085C6A13433C5D395CFE0AD262A8AF15E8D3C8CAFE0E1DE435DB3FE| |4D69329336DF9E7FFD6BAF356BCF549F540685787E4968C7AFDA96EBD6D6D61DABD| |9944EA06A6DD6D7FB2AD2DDB66CDBEA1542C40E63B5AAB4A5346FEFD66DDB9DE8A8| |15F940365C69562CE761EDB2B3BDE3846F34B6A4231B2DF37031B8BAB3639B2BD26| |AD61B9B437C73BDBEB9D5A2BBE1C3D08674DCAD7A33C8F76B4D293722D79AF575F3| |8A6D3D93B5AAE5B6A4F3748C1A2AD2FFB5D7195F6D43E47B84280B23036419C7724| |08191F3EC9AB2676991117D69608E11CC308A71C294C8935D833DA0B57987E06FC6| |E01FE02FE3F83F40E81EDE50968E9E023AEC21D843B047608F60C7116415282B805| |A7A00AD8DA0B551B4368AD6F6C8D7AB9EB8D7E41DC6E68105C68912506614C9DBAF| |B6ED4FF10E93D38CE90490C4EEE41B804F1BF8C6A9D331CD439C224328288610992| |7699807D30E0C87756F5433212002C4F99992B77887E41DC67BCA0AAB6986319724| |E6328BB9CC622EB3984B1A7331292BAA1A8BA2A3F419BA3374F196423174A6C55E5| |25254A45F31348AC455CFF1365D629F947135B6F1735CE0E459E03C708191B9C8D0| |C93EA15E9489456E64128792C1A1E47028391C8A41F629D5E494EA2E87663F5028A| |1DE86C4226F9E5F0296815338A8D38C8503E10DB0445929553FE5F2CB586C31E677| |8147C0634698EC73AAFE5C8CA58C6A638FCE2EAB4691FD28BC1AEF482A28A900699| |F24538DC7FCC4D2C267E00BA3FC153860A4A85E49D52B151001268DCE07493F6FF2| |09A3F3CDB5F3BE68C9A7947DCA924F59F6292B3E65D5506549D158E90F753ECCF6F| |760E7D356D19F478AA6DDE519F6DC64FCF0797F757B5FF0C1F5CCF0F3DF0F7A1A6A| |585DEB7B5DEBD5AEF5D1B512A57CA5FE07297FFC2F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Using the following AoE attack chain:
Quote:
| Throw Spines-->Spine Burst -->Fire Ball |
Quote:
|
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball 1.848 + 3.168 + 1.1888 = 6.2048 Using Arcanatime settings in Mid's |
The real crux of the issue, is how long can this attack chain be maintained.
Auroxis Spines/Elec build has a net EPS of 1.619. On that build, the cost of the attack chain is 4.15 EPS.
Quote:
|
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball (8.523+6.75+10.5)/6.2048 = 25.773/6.2048 = -4.15 EPS |
Quote:
|
-4.15 + 1.619 = -2.531 110/2.531 = 44 seconds. |
Quote:
|
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball (12.81 + 9.76 + 11.12)/6.2048 = 33.69/6.2048 = 5.429 EPS |
Quote:
|
-5.429 + 1.62 = -3.81 118.55/3.81 = 31 seconds |
Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
Power Sink always hits, first off(unlike Dark Regen). The Elec can attack endlessly, so while you'll have to use a blue every 30 seconds(assuming continuous attacking), I'll use a red every 30 seconds. Secondly, I see you had to lower your S/L defense by about 6% compared to mine(matters against the common ranged S/L), which shows that you had to sacrifice survivability somewhere get closer to my offense. If I were to use an Impervium instead of a Reactive, I could keep the same recovery numbers I had before while getting the Core Musculature boost instead of the Radial one(Which I only took because you had the Cardiac Radial instead of Core in the first place, idk why).|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
The real crux of the issue, is how long can this attack chain be maintained.
Auroxis Spines/Elec build has a net EPS of 1.619. On that build, the cost of the attack chain is 4.15 EPS. Assuming the attack chain is run continuously and Power Sink is never used, Auroxis Spines/Elec build will run out of endurance in ~44 seconds. On my Spines/DA build, the net EPS is 1.62. On this build, the cost of the AoE attack chain is 5.429 EPS. Again, assuming the attack chain is run continuously and Dark Regeneration is never used, my Spines/DA build will run out of endurance in ~31 seconds. In this area, Electric armor initially appears to have the advantage as it can maintain the AoE attack chain 13 seconds longer. The question becomes to what degree is the advantage significant? If you factor in Power Sink (assuming you have enough accuracy to reliably hit multiple targets) Spines/Elec should be able to sustain the attack chain indefinitely (not factoring Hasten downtime.) The issue will rest on the success of the Theft of the Essence: +10% endurance proc (20% chance.) On average, the proc will make the activation of Dark Regeneration free (assuming you had sufficient endurance to fire it in the first place.) On the spines/DA build I posted, DR has a recharge of 9 seconds, which gives you three chances to roll the dice and hope the proc hits enough targets to fill your end bar. This is by no means a guarantee, but at 20% per target, the very scenarios that lend to the AoE attack chain are ideal for firing off Dark Regeneration for endurance gain. Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot. |
I'll also repeat what I said earlier, the differences aren't significant. Elec and DA are closely matched, with Elec geared towards more offense and DA geared towards more survivability.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Gonna read this thread over, but I missed this part. That's not I or anyone else is responding too.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I'll also repeat what I said earlier, the differences aren't significant. Elec and DA are closely matched, with Elec geared towards more offense and DA geared towards more survivability.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
/Elec is superior to /Dark in terms of damage. Both of them have a damage aura, but Elec Armor gives you extra recharge and endurance management.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Power Sink always hits, first off(unlike Dark Regen). The Elec can attack endlessly, so while you'll have to use a blue every 30 seconds(assuming continuous attacking), I'll use a red every 30 seconds. Secondly, I see you had to lower your S/L defense by about 6% compared to mine(matters against the common ranged S/L), which shows that you had to sacrifice survivability somewhere get closer to my offense. If I were to use an Impervium instead of a Reactive, I could keep the same recovery numbers I had before while getting the Core Musculature boost instead of the Radial one(Which I only took because you had the Cardiac Radial instead of Core in the first place, idk why).
|
I made no mention of skittles in my comparisons.
You claim Dark Armor is more survivable than Electric Armor. That means to be 'comparable' Dark Armor would not need as much defense. I would go so far as to argue you've chosen not to build Electric Armor to it's full survivability potential for the sake of greater damage. It's an acceptable choice for either Dark Armor or Electric Armor. As John_Printemps pointed out from the onset, it's simply the players choice.
Personally, I don't see any superiority for either build.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
Dark Armor starts with more defense, remember. Elec is already investing more in defense than DA is, with those builds. |
Originally Posted by Desmodos
You claim Dark Armor is more survivable than Electric Armor. That means to be 'comparable' Dark Armor would not need as much defense. I would go so far as to argue you've chosen not to build Electric Armor to it's full survivability potential for the sake of greater damage. It's an acceptable choice for either Dark Armor or Electric Armor. As John_Printemps pointed out from the onset, it's simply the players choice.
Personally, I don't see any superiority for either build. |
Also, a DA built with a more offensive focus and an Elec built with a more defensive focus can be somewhat equal. I'm not arguing against that. In terms of potential, however...
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
There is more to survivability than defense. At equal levels of defense, Dark Armor has the advantage in terms of survivability. That gap can be closed if Electric Armor focuses on +HP and regeneration. IMHO, that would be the wiser choice.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Dark Armor starts with more defense, remember. Elec is already investing more in defense than DA is, with those builds.
|
Quote:
| Also, a DA built with a more offensive focus and an Elec built with a more defensive focus can be somewhat equal. I'm not arguing against that. In terms of potential, however... |
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
Unless you're at the softcap, it's not a wiser choice. Especially on a scrapper. And even if you focus on HP and regeneration, the HP/Sec numbers won't come close to the numbers Dark Regen can equivalently give you. |
Originally Posted by Desmodos
There is more to survivability than defense. At equal levels of defense, Dark Armor has the advantage in terms of survivability. That gap can be closed if Electric Armor focuses on +HP and regeneration. IMHO, that would be the wiser choice.
|
Quote:
| The potential is equivalent. Neither has an outstanding advantage in either department. Nothing presented here suggests otherwise. |
I've posted a build where Elec invests more in defense than DA does and still comes out ahead in terms of endurance, damage and recharge, but not in survivability.
You've posted a build where DA invested far less in defense than my build(12%ish) in order to come closer to my offensive numbers, and stated that while you can run out of endurance in 30 seconds and I won't ever run out of endurance, it doesn't mean anything.
The potential is not equivalent. The advantages are there, though they aren't outstanding.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Actually I did, rather clearly. You simply chose to ignore the facts presented. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I posted recharge, damage, endurance stability, etc. numbers that DA can't reach and stated Elec could come closer. You've yet to prove otherwise. I've posted a build where Elec invests more in defense than DA does and still comes out ahead in terms of endurance, damage and recharge, but not in survivability. You've posted a build where DA invested far less in defense than my build(12%ish) in order to come closer to my offensive numbers, and stated that while you can run out of endurance in 30 seconds and I won't ever run out of endurance, it doesn't mean anything. The potential is not equivalent. The advantages are there, though they aren't outstanding. |
If there is sufficient recharge, to sustain the attack chain, additional recharge is irrelevant to the attack chain. It would be relevant if you achieved perma-Hasten, which your build doesn't, at that point the differences aren't significant.
I did not state the build would run out of endurance. I set a condition for analysis that excluded both Dark Regeneration and Powersink, for the sake of comparing apples to apples. Neither Powersink nor Dark Regeneration is guaranteed. Both require hitting targets. In those scenarios, both builds are continuously sustainable.
Since minions won't be attacking the Spines/Dark Armor, the defense values are quite comparable, before factoring in Dark Regeneration.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
Quote:
I still have hasten up sooner, and there is still a difference, significant or not.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Actually I did, rather clearly. You simply chose to ignore the facts presented.
If there is sufficient recharge, to sustain the attack chain, additional recharge is irrelevant to the attack chain. It would be relevant if you achieved perma-Hasten, which your build doesn't, at that point the differences aren't significant. |
Quote:
| I did not state the build would run out of endurance. I set a condition for analysis that excluded both Dark Regeneration and Powersink, for the sake of comparing apples to apples. Neither Powersink nor Dark Regeneration is guaranteed. Both require hitting targets. In those scenarios, both builds are continuously sustainable. |
Quote:
| Since minions won't be attacking the Spines/Dark Armor, the defense values are quite comparable, before factoring in Dark Regeneration. |
And yes, even with less defense than Elec, DA can be more survivable. Dark Regen is simply that awesome, and CoF's -ToHit contributes as well. Power Sink is nice, but it won't instantly drain the mob and it won't be up every mob.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
That's only true is you assume more then eight targets every time you use it, which isn't very realistic.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
On average, the proc will make the activation of Dark Regeneration free (assuming you had sufficient endurance to fire it in the first place.)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
On the spines/DA build I posted, DR has a recharge of 9 seconds, which gives you three chances to roll the dice and hope the proc hits enough targets to fill your end bar.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
This is by no means a guarantee, but at 20% per target, the very scenarios that lend to the AoE attack chain are ideal for firing off Dark Regeneration for endurance gain.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot.
|
This conversation is going nowhere.