Any tips on Spines/Electric?
So to sum it all up, no matter how much offense you can fit in a DA build, Elec Armor can fit more of it, thanks to its greater pool of endurance and base recharge. The extra endurance lets you get away with more mitigation from IO's too, but it won't be enough to make it better than DA's mitigation. Hence DA has more survivability potential and Elec Armor has more offensive potential.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Hey Auroxis, did you ever run a character named Black-Op who sat in the Siren's Call hospital all the time?
Code:
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I just made this similar as possible build for Spines/Elec. I tried to stay as close as possible to the above Spines/DA build. It has more than sufficient levels of protection(softcapped), and more recharge and damage.
Code:
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OH...now you want to present evidence...
Incidentally, you posted a Spines/DA build.
Whooops, lol. Fixed.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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That has nothing to do with Dark Armor vs Electric Armor, your build gimps Spines.
So you're unable to post a build that's better then that? From the way you've been talking, it should be easy.
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Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks.
Since it's been requested, here's the build I'm considering but I am not really happy with. Again, not really comparable.
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For the record, speaking straight to you, Desmodos, the build I originally posted was a personal build. One I designed to run with teams on cranked settings to be as survivable as possible given how easy it is for one Scrapper, doing loads of damage, to grab all the aggro in a heartbeat. Personally I hate Impale's animation and time, and I've never been much to care for Ripper, either. Knowing that I'd be teaming in situations where my burst AoE was more important than my (in my opinion) lack luster ability to take out individual targets, I focused the build in that fashion. Since the whole issue of "needing a build to go against" came up, I merely pulled the one that was convenient--in this case, my own. Is it possible to build something similar including Ripper and Impale? Definitely. In fact, you could easily replace Fire Blast/Fire Ball to do it and not cause any real alterations.
So yes, I could easily be ... uh, "crazy" if you will. The strange part is that no one else bothered to see that I'd done something so outlandish and tried to correct it
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
I've made no claims regarding superiority of either Spines/Elec vs Spines/DA. Auroxis has made claims, the validity of which I doubt. Before any comparisons could be made, builds needed to be posted so we can all see what's actually being compared. That's all I've asked for in this discussion.
Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks. Since it's been requested, here's the build I'm considering but I am not really happy with. Again, not really comparable. Code:
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter

The BrandX Collection
Going back and reviewing yours, Auroxis, and John_Printemps builds and I've concluded you are all nucking futs. You've all skipped Impale and Ripper. I can't post a comparison build because I'd never play a build without Impale and Ripper. If that's what's required to obtain these numbers, I can happily say no thanks.
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This is why I didn't want to get into build wars on this subject, as builds are a personal thing with lots of variables, and it's hard to compare builds of different flavors.
Also, I took the build you posted and tried to make it as comparable as possible on Spines/Elec. Again, more recharge and damage.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
For the record, speaking straight to you, Desmodos, the build I originally posted was a personal build.
large snip for sake of brevity So yes, I could easily be ... uh, "crazy" if you will. The strange part is that no one else bothered to see that I'd done something so outlandish and tried to correct it ![]() |
I never said this is how I would build a Spines/Elec, I just tried to stay as close as possible to JP's build so a comparison could be made. And like JP said you can include Impale and Ripper and the comparative numbers won't change.
This is why I didn't want to get into build wars on this subject, as builds are a personal thing with lots of variables, and it's hard to compare builds of different flavors. |

The instant you claim /Electric Armor can out damage /Dark Armor you've essentially created a build war. Now we can make claims with out builds that will prove nothing, hence the first half of this discussion.
For the sake of comparing apples to apples you posted a comparable build, which is what I suggested. I just never got past the "I'd never play this" factor, for which I apologize.
Also, I took the build you posted and tried to make it as comparable as possible on Spines/Elec. Again, more recharge and damage. |


Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Apologies for the late reply, busy weak with RL stuffs...
I should point out I hate all this maths stuff...gives me a massive headache. On that note, please double check my numbers as I often cross multiply when I should be dividing by zero.
To make apt comparisons, I've made some modifications to my build for to more closely match what Auroxis is getting at. Specifically, both builds need to have 15% damage bonus from sets and both builds need to have Musculature Radial Paragon slotted. While I still question the wisdom of building either Spines in this fashion, that's a separate debate.
For the sake of clarity, I am comparing the build Auroxis posted in response to my build and a my modified build.
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| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1432;691;1382;HEX;| |78DA6593DB4E13511486F730538102D203A52087D252EC91A105D4788A51AB89861| |A0CC63BD38CB085C6A13433C5D395CFE0AD262A8AF15E8D3C8CAFE0E1DE435DB3FE| |4D69329336DF9E7FFD6BAF356BCF549F540685787E4968C7AFDA96EBD6D6D61DABD| |9944EA06A6DD6D7FB2AD2DDB66CDBEA1542C40E63B5AAB4A5346FEFD66DDB9DE8A8| |15F940365C69562CE761EDB2B3BDE3846F34B6A4231B2DF37031B8BAB3639B2BD26| |AD61B9B437C73BDBEB9D5A2BBE1C3D08674DCAD7A33C8F76B4D293722D79AF575F3| |8A6D3D93B5AAE5B6A4F3748C1A2AD2FFB5D7195F6D43E47B84280B23036419C7724| |08191F3EC9AB2676991117D69608E11CC308A71C294C8935D833DA0B57987E06FC6| |E01FE02FE3F83F40E81EDE50968E9E023AEC21D843B047608F60C7116415282B805| |A7A00AD8DA0B551B4368AD6F6C8D7AB9EB8D7E41DC6E68105C68912506614C9DBAF| |B6ED4FF10E93D38CE90490C4EEE41B804F1BF8C6A9D331CD439C224328288610992| |7699807D30E0C87756F5433212002C4F99992B77887E41DC67BCA0AAB6986319724| |E6328BB9CC622EB3984B1A7331292BAA1A8BA2A3F419BA3374F196423174A6C55E5| |25254A45F31348AC455CFF1365D629F947135B6F1735CE0E459E03C708191B9C8D0| |C93EA15E9489456E64128792C1A1E47028391C8A41F629D5E494EA2E87663F5028A| |1DE86C4226F9E5F0296815338A8D38C8503E10DB0445929553FE5F2CB586C31E677| |8147C0634698EC73AAFE5C8CA58C6A638FCE2EAB4691FD28BC1AEF482A28A900699| |F24538DC7FCC4D2C267E00BA3FC153860A4A85E49D52B151001268DCE07493F6FF2| |09A3F3CDB5F3BE68C9A7947DCA924F59F6292B3E65D5506549D158E90F753ECCF6F| |760E7D356D19F478AA6DDE519F6DC64FCF0797F757B5FF0C1F5CCF0F3DF0F7A1A6A| |585DEB7B5DEBD5AEF5D1B512A57CA5FE07297FFC2F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Using the following AoE attack chain:
Throw Spines-->Spine Burst -->Fire Ball |
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball 1.848 + 3.168 + 1.1888 = 6.2048 Using Arcanatime settings in Mid's |
The real crux of the issue, is how long can this attack chain be maintained.
Auroxis Spines/Elec build has a net EPS of 1.619. On that build, the cost of the attack chain is 4.15 EPS.
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball (8.523+6.75+10.5)/6.2048 = 25.773/6.2048 = -4.15 EPS |
-4.15 + 1.619 = -2.531 110/2.531 = 44 seconds. |
Throw Spines + Spine Burst + Fire Ball (12.81 + 9.76 + 11.12)/6.2048 = 33.69/6.2048 = 5.429 EPS |
-5.429 + 1.62 = -3.81 118.55/3.81 = 31 seconds |
Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot.
The real crux of the issue, is how long can this attack chain be maintained.
Auroxis Spines/Elec build has a net EPS of 1.619. On that build, the cost of the attack chain is 4.15 EPS. Assuming the attack chain is run continuously and Power Sink is never used, Auroxis Spines/Elec build will run out of endurance in ~44 seconds. On my Spines/DA build, the net EPS is 1.62. On this build, the cost of the AoE attack chain is 5.429 EPS. Again, assuming the attack chain is run continuously and Dark Regeneration is never used, my Spines/DA build will run out of endurance in ~31 seconds. In this area, Electric armor initially appears to have the advantage as it can maintain the AoE attack chain 13 seconds longer. The question becomes to what degree is the advantage significant? If you factor in Power Sink (assuming you have enough accuracy to reliably hit multiple targets) Spines/Elec should be able to sustain the attack chain indefinitely (not factoring Hasten downtime.) The issue will rest on the success of the Theft of the Essence: +10% endurance proc (20% chance.) On average, the proc will make the activation of Dark Regeneration free (assuming you had sufficient endurance to fire it in the first place.) On the spines/DA build I posted, DR has a recharge of 9 seconds, which gives you three chances to roll the dice and hope the proc hits enough targets to fill your end bar. This is by no means a guarantee, but at 20% per target, the very scenarios that lend to the AoE attack chain are ideal for firing off Dark Regeneration for endurance gain. Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot. |
I'll also repeat what I said earlier, the differences aren't significant. Elec and DA are closely matched, with Elec geared towards more offense and DA geared towards more survivability.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I'll also repeat what I said earlier, the differences aren't significant. Elec and DA are closely matched, with Elec geared towards more offense and DA geared towards more survivability.
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/Elec is superior to /Dark in terms of damage. Both of them have a damage aura, but Elec Armor gives you extra recharge and endurance management.
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Power Sink always hits, first off(unlike Dark Regen). The Elec can attack endlessly, so while you'll have to use a blue every 30 seconds(assuming continuous attacking), I'll use a red every 30 seconds. Secondly, I see you had to lower your S/L defense by about 6% compared to mine(matters against the common ranged S/L), which shows that you had to sacrifice survivability somewhere get closer to my offense. If I were to use an Impervium instead of a Reactive, I could keep the same recovery numbers I had before while getting the Core Musculature boost instead of the Radial one(Which I only took because you had the Cardiac Radial instead of Core in the first place, idk why).
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I made no mention of skittles in my comparisons.
You claim Dark Armor is more survivable than Electric Armor. That means to be 'comparable' Dark Armor would not need as much defense. I would go so far as to argue you've chosen not to build Electric Armor to it's full survivability potential for the sake of greater damage. It's an acceptable choice for either Dark Armor or Electric Armor. As John_Printemps pointed out from the onset, it's simply the players choice.
Personally, I don't see any superiority for either build.
You claim Dark Armor is more survivable than Electric Armor. That means to be 'comparable' Dark Armor would not need as much defense. I would go so far as to argue you've chosen not to build Electric Armor to it's full survivability potential for the sake of greater damage. It's an acceptable choice for either Dark Armor or Electric Armor. As John_Printemps pointed out from the onset, it's simply the players choice.
Personally, I don't see any superiority for either build. |
Also, a DA built with a more offensive focus and an Elec built with a more defensive focus can be somewhat equal. I'm not arguing against that. In terms of potential, however...
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Dark Armor starts with more defense, remember. Elec is already investing more in defense than DA is, with those builds.
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Also, a DA built with a more offensive focus and an Elec built with a more defensive focus can be somewhat equal. I'm not arguing against that. In terms of potential, however... |
There is more to survivability than defense. At equal levels of defense, Dark Armor has the advantage in terms of survivability. That gap can be closed if Electric Armor focuses on +HP and regeneration. IMHO, that would be the wiser choice.
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The potential is equivalent. Neither has an outstanding advantage in either department. Nothing presented here suggests otherwise. |
I've posted a build where Elec invests more in defense than DA does and still comes out ahead in terms of endurance, damage and recharge, but not in survivability.
You've posted a build where DA invested far less in defense than my build(12%ish) in order to come closer to my offensive numbers, and stated that while you can run out of endurance in 30 seconds and I won't ever run out of endurance, it doesn't mean anything.
The potential is not equivalent. The advantages are there, though they aren't outstanding.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I posted recharge, damage, endurance stability, etc. numbers that DA can't reach and stated Elec could come closer. You've yet to prove otherwise. I've posted a build where Elec invests more in defense than DA does and still comes out ahead in terms of endurance, damage and recharge, but not in survivability. You've posted a build where DA invested far less in defense than my build(12%ish) in order to come closer to my offensive numbers, and stated that while you can run out of endurance in 30 seconds and I won't ever run out of endurance, it doesn't mean anything. The potential is not equivalent. The advantages are there, though they aren't outstanding. |
If there is sufficient recharge, to sustain the attack chain, additional recharge is irrelevant to the attack chain. It would be relevant if you achieved perma-Hasten, which your build doesn't, at that point the differences aren't significant.
I did not state the build would run out of endurance. I set a condition for analysis that excluded both Dark Regeneration and Powersink, for the sake of comparing apples to apples. Neither Powersink nor Dark Regeneration is guaranteed. Both require hitting targets. In those scenarios, both builds are continuously sustainable.
Since minions won't be attacking the Spines/Dark Armor, the defense values are quite comparable, before factoring in Dark Regeneration.
Actually I did, rather clearly. You simply chose to ignore the facts presented.
If there is sufficient recharge, to sustain the attack chain, additional recharge is irrelevant to the attack chain. It would be relevant if you achieved perma-Hasten, which your build doesn't, at that point the differences aren't significant. |
I did not state the build would run out of endurance. I set a condition for analysis that excluded both Dark Regeneration and Powersink, for the sake of comparing apples to apples. Neither Powersink nor Dark Regeneration is guaranteed. Both require hitting targets. In those scenarios, both builds are continuously sustainable. |
Since minions won't be attacking the Spines/Dark Armor, the defense values are quite comparable, before factoring in Dark Regeneration. |
And yes, even with less defense than Elec, DA can be more survivable. Dark Regen is simply that awesome, and CoF's -ToHit contributes as well. Power Sink is nice, but it won't instantly drain the mob and it won't be up every mob.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
On average, the proc will make the activation of Dark Regeneration free (assuming you had sufficient endurance to fire it in the first place.)
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On the spines/DA build I posted, DR has a recharge of 9 seconds, which gives you three chances to roll the dice and hope the proc hits enough targets to fill your end bar.
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This is by no means a guarantee, but at 20% per target, the very scenarios that lend to the AoE attack chain are ideal for firing off Dark Regeneration for endurance gain.
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Conclusion: There is no significant advantage to damage output to Spines/Elec over Spines/Dark Armor. It is undoubtedly easier to manage endurance with Electric Armor and this will likely steer most players away from Cardiac Alpha slots (which is debatable.) Since Dark Armor requires endurance management, many players will initially gravitate towards the Cardiac Alpha slot (myself included.) That doesn't mean Dark Armor is required to utilize the Cardiac Alpha slot.
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This conversation is going nowhere.