Any tips on Spines/Electric?

That's debatable, but irrelevant to the conversation.

This statement is emphatically false.


More generic statements that do nothing to support your position.

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What is it you want me to do to make you get it? Create entire builds that have so many different variables? similar builds for two completely different powersets? What would be the point of that other than wasting my time?

Elec Armor starts with more recharge, and the difference won't go away unless you invest in slots. Elec Armor starts with more endurance, the difference won't go away unless you invest in slots. Elec Armor can use slots to get more damage. Thus the ceiling is higher.

Edit: Not just slots, power selections too. Assault for example.

...because you've wasted everyone else's time with this fabricated nonsense. You don't even need to set up multiple builds. Simply post recharge and damage values you believe Spines/Elec can achieve that Spines/DA cannot.


All I have asked is that you validate your statements. They are inconsistent with my understanding of CoX mechanics, Electric Armor game play and Dark Armor game play. I'm not above learning new things but you need to back up your claims.

A ceiling would be the highest value a build can obtain. By virtue of being both scrappers, Spines/Elec has the same caps as Spines/DA.

For all scrappers, the Damage cap is 500%.

For all archetypes, the recharge cap is 400%.

Thus the ceiling for both is the same.

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OK. I don't believe a Spines/DA build can have near-perma Hasten, endurance stability, have Fire Ball, have one of the best Spines ST attack chains, have over 20% in global damage bonuses(including Assault), have Musculature, without significantly sacrificing survivability(survivability powers taken and slotted appropriately, including Tough+Weave).

I believe Spines/Elec can get closer to the above than Spines/DA can.

Edit: If it can, Spines/Elec can likely get more procs and global damage bonuses.




That's only logical if it's viable or even possible to reach the recharge and damage caps with just a build.

Alright, Auroxis, lets seriously step back a second here and look at what's being discussed.

You believe a Spintric is superior to a Spindle. Okay, I'm fine with that, anyone would be, it's your personal opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion. I speak from experiences and a vast knowledge of the IO's that Scrapper's have at their disposal. Des speaks from a solid experience with */DA. We're trying to speak to you directly on the claim that you see a Spintric as being superior, and Des has only asked for proof, and you've not come back with any.

So this gives me the impression that you do not, in fact, have a working build, let alone a working model, for a Spintric, let alone one that can outperform a Spindle on any level. So I've gone ahead and worked on the finer details for you.

First off, "Perma-Hasten" is easily achieved by any toon with the Spiritual Alpha once you have Hasten and about 60-70% Global recharge with only two slots in Hasten, that's achievable by /everyone/ now. Endurance Sustainability, we're talking about running roughly eleven toggles, two of which on their own are going to burn .6-.8 even when slotted, so that already puts any combo into a crunch. You say you want 20% in Global +Dam? Sure, I can actually do 26% with Assault. You want us to run Musculature? No, I'm going to drop the hammer on that one, you shouldn't be running Musculature when there's so much benefit out of Spiritual or Cardiac. Flat out, no. So, with that said, I went with Cardiac, because it's part of my endurance sustainability. It also gives me a net 5% across the board for resists, so win-win. I could do Spiritual, but I don't feel the need to beat a dead horse when I can already run Throw Spines > Spine Burst > Fire Ball, and hop to the next mob with ease.

There's also something you're fundementally missing from your demands list. Defense. If you're going to take Weave, Tough, and Cloak of Darkness, well, you might as well really build for defense. So with that, you're probably going to grab Combat Jumping and Maneuvers. Lo'n'behold, 45% S/L and Melee, so now I've upped the ante.

As for single target chains... I am again going to have to disagree with you on this. Spindles, Spires, and Spintrics are AoE Wrecking machines, not Single Target DPS Machines, let alone the fact that any ST chain you could imagine (Which, btw, I believe is Ripper > Dark Blast > Throw Spines > Dark Blast, which completely overshadows your desire for Fireball) isn't going to be all that great in the first place when your shortest running attack from the primary does horrible damage, and the highest hitting ones, take forever to animate. So we're not doing something sustainable for damage in the first place, so I wont even bother trying to build around the idea.

With that having all been said:

The funny part is, it's actually harder for a Spintric to achieve this kind of a build. They may have a better endurance balance, but I'm not afraid to use a necessary blue from time to time either. These guys aren't out to win the Pylon-Run of the Year award, after all. I did switch things around to try and grasp at straws for an */Elec version, but S/L cam shy by .1% and I had to sacrifice a little Recharge and a more solid attack to get there. Dark Armor will always be at the head of the table. I may be a bit biased to say that, but the mitigation it has in the secondary, often times proffers up more solutions to the final build. This does not, however, change my opinion on each of a Spindle/Spintric/Spire being capable of greatness. Each of the three can get to the same goal line, you'll find that it's easier with one versus the others.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

I don't know if I agree with a Spines not being able to put out good ST DPS. No, they won't win the Pylon-Run of the Year Award. However, with damage auras going (this is just for DA and Elec...FA gets other added bonuses)...that adds up!

I don't know if I agree with Dark Armor being the head of the table. I'll have to look at your build then see what I could do. But having a Spines/Dark at 50, and working on a Spines/Elec at 42, I'm actually prefereing /ELA's Power Sink defense over CoF and OG of /DA.

No I don't. I believe Elec has more damage potential and Dark has more survivability potential.

No I don't have a spines/elec build sitting around.

Like I said earlier in the thread, If all you need is one AoE cycle to destroy a mob that's just your playstyle. Some people play at a higher difficulty.

Also, you took Cardiac. The Elec doesn't need Cardiac, and could take Musculature/Spiritual for more damage.

I intentionally left defense from IO's out. You can get defense on both DA and Elec, and we are talking about damage potential after all.

Once your AoE's kill the mobs, you will need ST attacks to get rid of the bosses(I also didn't ask for the best ST chain, just one of the best).
You shouldn't bring insps into the equation, as the Elec could take a red or a purple if you can take a blue(and you will need more than just a blue "from time to time").

Here's a quick attempt at Spines/ELA

45% Melee Defense. I chose Cardiac because I 1) Wasn't sure if Power Sink and Energize was enough to get around the END Consumption 2) Even more resists!

Enough Recharge to go Impale-Ripper-Throw Spines for Single Targets as well (which I think was what I worked out as the best ST DPS for Spines).

If it has enough END REC for it's END USE with just Power Sink, then I'd for sure go Spiritual Core for more RCH and HEAL, to bring Power Sink up even sooner as well as Energize.

The added RCH for Spine Burst wouldn't hurt either

You lost me BrandX. Was that build supposed to prove Auroxis point?

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It is like he said, an attempt at a Spines/Elec build. A solid one at that.

Edit: For BrandX, What I would change about that build:

Going for S/L is better than melee, as almost all melee attacks have an S/L components, and there are lots of ranged attacks with Lethal components as well.

Build Up is not slotted well. Get some recharge in there.

Fire Ball should get another slot or get Ragnarok. Throw Spines can do with 5 positron's and a recharge IO.

Energize's slotting is a bit off, should get more recharge.


Those are all the main things I can think of, the rest is just nitpicky.

But your belief has no data. You think End = Damage, and it doesn't. They have the same damage potential, as they are both on the same damage modifiers, and using the same level of base damage.

So you're basing everything off theory, we've covered that.

One Aoe Cycle or 20 Cycles, don't try and claim that a higher difficulty rating is changing the facts I already presented. The build I posted can run Throw Spines > Spine Burst > Fire Ball > Throw Spines, and in that cycle it'll do about 1,000 points of damage with the damage auras included. A level 54 minion has 435.70 HP. You've successfully killed it. Twice. And just to cover the bases, Lieutenants are 867.40, Bosses are 2,729.70.

Again, Musculature isn't benefiting pretty much any Scrapper unless you build to need it and that's a whole other kettle of fish. And as said, Spiritual or Cardiac is most likely the choice, and as said, I could have tossed Spiritual into the build I posted, but it works well enough without it, so there's no need in giving up Cardiac. And thanks to what BrandX Posted, it proves that even then, someone may feel they still need Cardiac. Just because you have Power Sink doesn't mean the build is perfect on endurance.

Yes, you can get Defense on both, but if you hadn't noticed, */DA has a power in it's secondary that helps generate 6% Global, that */Elec does not. This is a highly notable aspect as it means that there's 6% that */Elec would have to struggle to account for that */DA would not. So I could use your own arguement against you and say that */Elec has to sacrifice slots in order to do what */DA is doing naturally.

If you're just worried about the straggling portion of whatever is left each mob, then you don't need a chain, you just need stuff to tag the left overs. That doesn't need a "Chain", and there's plenty of single target answers to help deal a few excess points. This is neither here nor there, really.

So if you can take a Red, so can I, so why not count them in the equation? They're going to drop, they're going to be there. Difference is, taking down an occasional blue (and yes, from experience, it is only occasional), is a lot different than sucking down purples to try and maintain a defense level.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

I think I made it more to show that you could get both ST DPS and AOE out of any Spines, while getting some nice defense built up.

It can't cycle Throw Spines -> Fire Ball -> Throw Spines -> Spine Burst -> repeatedly non-stop, but I don't recall if the posted Spines/Dark could (possibly it had Hasten).

I do think the /ELA would be more survivable against enemies like the Cims, as the things that help make /DA survivable are pretty much a wash on enemies like the Cims, namely the mez toggles.

As to JP, I'll see if I can make a S/L Defense version, I went with melee mostly because it looked at first glance that without powers like OG and CoF, getting to softcap S/L, while maintaining good ST DPS wasn't going to happen with Spines/ELA.

Also, I chose Cardiac for the build because I didn't do the math to see if the build could survive off Power Sink, for end recovery (on groups or on just one target), if it can, I'd switch to Spiritual for sure.

Hasten, yes. Non-Stop? No. Fireball just isn't going to get down far enough in recharge to pull a chain tight enough to include it. Throw > Burst > Throw is actually within reason, though, and I was looking at Throw > Burst > Throw > FB with the intention that there'd be three seconds of moving to the next mob in order to repeat the chain. (Recalling off the top of my head, but FB with around a 12 second recharge). Honestly, when you have to leverage Throw Spines to get the most in the cone, you usually kill a second or two each time anyway so the AoE Chain would never have to be 100% tight.

If you strip away CoF and OG from the DA, then they're in no different a position than the ELA, pushed down to just their resists to survive. In this situation, DA has the superior heal. ELA may have Power Sink, but that's /maybe/ once every three spawns (assuming five seconds a spawn, and a 15 second recharge). In fact, to touch on the point: The long recharge on Power Sink is one of the larger reasons it's not as secure a defense as OG or CoF in 99% of scenarios. With a 60/s base recharge, it's not going to shrink any further than roughly around 15 seconds, That'll average out to about 1/3rd the mobs you hit are getting sapped, the other 2/3rds are beating on you senselessly. It works great for filling the end-bar, though.

I do want to add that Cim's are a bit of a bad choice to try and compare the builds against. The -Def in their attacks are really going to hurt any toon that doesn't have debuff resists, so once one of those attacks gets through, you're really relying on the rest of your defensive options; and if I had to choose an ELA or a DA against a squad of Cims? It'd be DA, entirely for Dark Regen being up every 10-15 seconds. Not to sound like I'm pimping DA out, though. That's just a personal choice. If I were playing ELA, I'd definitely be sticking Power Surge in there somewhere, and that's a pretty awesome response to a bad situation. Although, Soul Transfer could be looked at the same way, I guess. May take a dirt nap to get it, but Soul Transfer can stun pretty much anything (AV Included), and give you plenty of time to clean up.

S/L and Melee 45% is possible for the ELA, but very tight, and (in my opinion) ended up sacrificing a bit much to do it. 32.5% Positionals would be safer, and easier (for either actually, but more so in this case). Not having Cloak of Darkness really kills ELA's options.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

Can you do damage with no endurance?






Not just mob levels, I was more referring to TF's(ITF) and ambush maps.



How is +35% damage not benefiting you, if you have no endurance problems and you have "enough" recharge to beat a dead horse?



Yes, DA has more survivability potential.



I was more saying that so people wouldn't skip integral ST attacks to achieve the build goals.



It's simple. You used a blue, I used a red. I now have more damage than you.

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The reason DA did fine before IO's was because they slotted for end reduction. It doesn't change anything. Elec can just slot for more recharge or damage that way(though there was no Elec for Scrappers before IO's).

I'm really having a hard time figuring out why you can't understand that endurance is required to do damage, and that having to invest less in endurance gives you more options to increase your damage.

There is nothing to understand. No one is disputing that endurance is required to perform attacks. It's simply not relevant.

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Why isn't it relevant? You need endurance to do damage. You need your attacks up to do damage. You need +damage to do more damage.

Sure, you need to also be alive to do damage, but the amount of survivability you need varies a lot depending on content and teammates. Extra damage is rarely ever unnecessary, especially considering the fact that you are a scrapper.

Because there aren't any sets you're slotting in Spine/Elec that have 0 endurance reduction. Every Damage set and every resistance set has some endurance reduction. It's a moot point. If you wanted to discuss an SO build, there would be some validity to your concerns. On IO builds, endurance reduction slotting simply isn't relevant to damage output.



This is quite far from truth. Depending the team, buffs from can actually make all of you +damage bonuses and enhancements completely meaningless. On a TF, a single fulcrum shift can cap your damage. A few Accelerate Metabolisms or Speed Boosts can make all of your endurance reduction and recharge completely meaningless. Teaming only makes your argument sillier, not stronger.

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If it isn't relevant then you wouldn't be relying on blue insps and the cardiac alpha to keep your endurance bar up.



I don't know about you, but I don't team with kinetics and rads more than I team with a brute, tanker, and everyone else that gives mitigation and doesn't give me offense. Also, it depends on content.

I only have experience in the ITF with Cims, and maybe it's the lack of fireball, but I wasn't killing a group of Cims in 5 seconds.

Similar Defense, with more end sustainability.

Endurance is required to exist in the game, but it is not a direct proportion to damage. Yes you need endurance to attack, but what you're failing to catch is that a */DA is, in fact, not running out of endurance like you think it is. This is where you are grasping at straws and trying to stay afloat in a sea of overwhelming evidence against your theory. You're like the Freud of this conversation. People once thought it was solid before they realized it was false.

The investment required to sustain a DA reasonably is very little. You say you'd rather take Musculature over Cardiac or Spiritual? Fine, you can take it, that's your prerogative, but I want you to remember that you're not actually getting 45% out of that power. It adds the enhancement after you've already slotted, after you've already ED'd. You'll have to burn the shards and the time and the favors to get 29.7% (Or 21.78 if you take the Radial). Okay, congrats, you've earned your Musculature, but now you're falling behind in the recharge department because you didn't take Spiritual and I've already compensated for recharge in the DA build, you're going to really have to push those slots to cover for the loss and try and keep up. Unfortunetly, because you did this, you also started falling behind on your other options, like defense. So when you faceplant, I'll leave road markers for when you get back on your feet because you couldn't keep up.

This is fundamentally the direction you've desired to take with this debate. You were, after all, the one who retorted "You took a blue, I took a red, now I have more damage than you." Without actually reading the entirety of that sentence. The whole of this has become a pretty asinine farce. I thought I could be generally civil about it and try and bring some reason, but, as the interwebz proves, I can't, so I'll let the dust settle where it may.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

The build posted regains 34 end in 30 seconds, and in ideal conditions will profit 10 end from using dark regen twice in that 30 seconds. If in those 30 seconds you hit three groups with your 3 AOE's, you'll use 71end, minus the 44 end you are gaining in that time gives you 27(30 if you use build up once). If we throw in two lunge's to make the math easy, that's 34 end used in 30seconds, so attacking lightly, you can easily bottom out your end bar in a minute and a half. Now soul transfer recharges faster then that, so I guess you can use to to refill your end bar, but otherwise I'm not seeing the sustainability of dark.

Ok, so you're saying that yes, I can have my +31-35% damage bonus or recharge, and yes, I can have my red insp every once in a while, and you can't, because you need to keep your endurance bar up. Yet I don't do more damage? I don't need to match your levels of survivability to stay alive and deal damage.