Am I the only one feeling unmotivated....


Aliana Blue

 

Posted

Thoughts...

- I've always thought the rating system was a bad idea. I thought it'd be abused, and it was. I thought it wouldn't serve it's intended purpose, and it doesn't. The only thing I was wrong about is that I guessed it'd be gone by now. I'm really kinda amazed that it's still there when it's so clearly not working (and has never worked).

- I think, rather than an average rating, arcs should show the total number of stars given to it. Remove negative ratings (which are just grief bait anyway) from the equation entirely. If we don't like an arc, we simply don't give it any stars. Moreover, as arcs can change and evolve over time, I believe we should have the option to change our ratings on them as well.

- I think total number of plays should probably also be listed, as well as 'last played on'.

- I think stars should be presented, not as a rating of quality, but as a level of recommendation. I'm more interested in what people think I might like, as opposed to what they know they like/hate themselves. It might be a subtle shift in perspective, but I believe it's an important one.

- I've often toyed with the idea of stars, as a reward, being limited, so that players might be more thoughtful about the ratings they give. You'd get more stars to spend by playing (and completing) AE content.

- I still dislike Developer's Choice. I still think it needs to go away. Retooling it into a 'Devloper's Showcase' that features a couple-few different arcs every month would be nice. However, as the 'set it and forget it' approach clearly hasn't worked, they'd have to stay on top of it. If they unwilling/unable to do that, it should just be dumped.

- I recently played through a massive arc that had been written specifically for me and one of my characters (a level 50). Best AE experience I've ever had. At the end of it, the character had 353 tickets (despite having practically cleared 2 of the 5 maps). Meanwhile, I can spend 15-20 minutes in a farm map and get over 1000 tickets. To me, that's just horribly, horribly wrong. Maybe the way tickets are rewarded needs to be completely changed? It feels to me like a radical solution is required here. Sadly, I got nuthin'.

- Where AE is at now is exactly where I predicted it'd be back when I16 was released. If it's going to be a successful feature, I think it needs to be a viable leveling alternative. Otherwise, no matter what else is done, most people will continue to ignore it.

- Story is important, so are the mechanics, but what's also important is the design. If you're not the leader of an AE team, you're just not going to catch all the nuances and details of an arc's story. Thus, the flow and design of an arc matter a great deal, as that's probably going to be the bulk of the experience for a lot of participants.

Sadly, it is in this area that architects are most handicapped/unsupported. Detail placement alone can be an infuriating headache. Architects need to be given greater control over the structure of the experience. A lot of bugs that've been there since the beginning need to be fixed. Design options that've come about since MA's release need to be added. You can't expect quality content to be made if you don't provide the tools to make it.

- More maps. Also, map sets that're exclusive to MA. Frankly, they should've been there at the start.

- I like guest authors as a fun novelty. But, after playing their arcs, it's clear to me that being a good writer doesn't automatically translate into being a good GM/Architect. Also, these people aren't necessarily acquainted with the game lore. Thus, I don't think these arcs should be shoved into our faces every time we open the search UI. The search UI should be about what the players want to find, not about what the authors and developers want them to find. In my view, City's track record for UI design has been pretty consistently lackluster, but I think the AE search UI just might be the worst. It really needs a complete overhaul.

- I don't think any of this is going to happen. I believe what we have now is pretty much what we're going to have. There might be a few bells and whistles added, but that's it. I'm also of the opinion that MA's woes can all be traced back to it being released long, long, long before it was ready. It was an ambitious, enormous undertaking, but I don't think it was treated as such at the outset, and we've been dealing with the fallout of that ever since. To this day, it still feels like it's in beta to me.

- I'll continue to use MA as a roleplaying/story development tool for my characters and the characters of the folks I play with. At present--aside from being an occasional (event) diversion or source of tickets (for salvage, usually common)--that's pretty much all it's good for. It could've been much more, but it isn't and I don't think it's ever going to be. The window of opportunity for saving the feature came and went a while ago.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
This grade would only be useful to sort the arcs within that one list or reviewer. My four star arcs would NEVER, EVER find themselves on a list with Venture's four star arcs in a global search, because those ratings would be specific to a single reviewer. Which reflects a fundamental truth: no one's ratings are precisely, or sometimes even remotely, comparable to another reviewer.
This actually reminds me of a problem in the video game review industry (I always have to stop and be amazed that we HAVE such an industry) where many reviewers or even entire publications will only use a subset of their rating space. So you get things like 10 (of 10) is a must play, 9 is a good buy, 8 is solid if you like the genre, 7 becomes 'Consider if you like the genre, otherwise it's just a rental', 6 is 'just a rental', and 5 is 'don't bother playing.'

There are sometimes review policies to this effect for some publications. It's kind of bewildering. But the ultimate SOURCE of all of this? Not offending the authors (i.e. publishers). If someone slaps a 1- or 2-star on any scale on a title from a publisher, their PR staff FREAK OUT over being 'slammed' like that (even if it's a genuinely bad title on both aesthetic and technical fronts, and possibly doesn't even function correctly), and will often go so far as to blacklist the publication from further review copies.

It's an interesting set of social dynamics. Some of it isn't directly relevant to the issue at hand (since AE authors don't get to decide which reviewers get to play their arcs), but some of the social effects will still be present, as evidenced by the strong background buzz of 'don't screw over the authors' we have now.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
A superchannel of multiple players is an interesting notion. I'd want to think about the mechanics of how such a thing would best work. I'm not sure if the best way is to literally create a list everyone could post to. Managing that forces the creation of channel authorities, and those have issues that might be more trouble than they are worth in the AE specifically.
Well, any time you have multiple people interacting in one space, some form of moderation is eventually going to be needed, and I tend to prefer if the participants directly know who is going to be moderating them instead of a GM rolling up and making unexpected changes for unclear reasons. So something along the lines of how global channels work (perhaps invite-only for participation, but publicly visible for reading), with clearly indicated moderators and perhaps a space for that channel's moderation rules.

This would allow for more narrowly themed review channels with multiple reviewers.

Alternately, the Twitter approach could be used, and people could toss arbitrary tags on their reviews that could then be searched for. But arbitrary tags are always kind of a sticky thing.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
I'm really enjoying this discussion about how the search/ranking system could be, but I feel the need to cynically say that I think that at this point, I don't think it matters. Too many design mistakes were made at I14 launch, and the AE is unfixable without a radical overhaul and some way to convince the players that, yes, it really is different.

I think one of the biggest mistakes was the theme. It effectively labels all content as "fake" content. I know that it was done to separate player and developer content, so that players knew if they were doing player or developer content, but they should have separated it via the User Interface for the player, not via lore for the character. Were I to have designed the system, I'd have had a tab next to Contacts for accessing player content, and it would be explicitly labeled as such in the nav bar. Custom contacts would have been scattered around the zones as generic NPCs when not active (instead of holograms). In short, it should have been designed to appear as similar as possible to regular content in execution, but labeled clearly for the player to know that it's custom content.

I also think it was a mistake to have a hard cap on slots. If I was willing to continue to make arcs due to other issues being resolved, I'd be willing to keep paying them for more slots.

If you think I'm being overly pessimistic, please do attempt to convince me not to be. I'd love for this feature to be all that it could be.
1. I would have made the AE "alternate universe" content accessed by Portal Corp rather than holographic entertainment. By making it a video game, they essentially destroyed the in-game rationale for the stories to be at all meaningful because they don't really happen. Even if they happen in an alternate universe, they still happen. And it creates a potential loophole for content to be promoted to "real" content, because if the events are real, they can always "spill over" into the real universe. We could even discover that it *was* our universe all along.

2. The point to slot caps was to reduce the amount of fluff in the AE. But in my opinion that is contradictory to allowing everyone to post stories on a totally equal footing. What's the point of reducing slot count when you're going to allow half a million stories into the system by random people? I understand why it was done, but to me its clear evidence the devs were ruled too strongly by the "everyone can be an author" principle. Everyone cannot be an author. Or rather, everyone cannot be a successful author. Everyone can be an author of content for their friends. It should have stopped there. You could have allowed players to make dozens of arcs for their friends, as long as only a few of those if any would ever be presented to the public at large through searches.

3. You'd need the will to change it, but it could be changed. The very *fact* that they turned the AE into Aeon's Playhouse means they could reboot it in another, better context. But they really have only one more chance to get it right, if that. And it is specifically with things like the AE that the devs have to understand iterative design doesn't work. You have to aim at a target, and hit it, or you fail. You do not get second chances to build a cultural system, which is what the AE ultimately is.


The whole *notion* of iterative implementation is one of those things I'd crush from the souls of the developers with my bare hands if I could.


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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
Well, any time you have multiple people interacting in one space, some form of moderation is eventually going to be needed
Alternatively, they could not interact in the same space. We could make a system where everyone had their own version of the "channel" and whenever someone joined, everyone "subscribed" to that channel would get the option of whether to add them to their version of it, like a reverse invitation. Which means if that new person then does idiotic things in that channel, anyone could selectively remove that person from their version of the channel. It would be a form of individualized censoring of an otherwise global channel.

This requires no central moderator, because there is no one version of the channel that requires central oversight.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Alternatively, they could not interact in the same space. We could make a system where everyone had their own version of the "channel" and whenever someone joined, everyone "subscribed" to that channel would get the option of whether to add them to their version of it, like a reverse invitation. Which means if that new person then does idiotic things in that channel, anyone could selectively remove that person from their version of the channel. It would be a form of individualized censoring of an otherwise global channel.

This requires no central moderator, because there is no one version of the channel that requires central oversight.
So, opt in to a channel label, opt out of specific contributors?

That would be interesting. Potentially confusing for the players, particularly if they start talking to each other about what they saw in a channel, but interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
So, opt in to a channel label, opt out of specific contributors?

That would be interesting. Potentially confusing for the players, particularly if they start talking to each other about what they saw in a channel, but interesting.
It is potentially confusing, but I was just brainstorming to demonstrate that shared channels do not require mandatory centralized moderation.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
And it is specifically with things like the AE that the devs have to understand iterative design doesn't work. You have to aim at a target, and hit it, or you fail. You do not get second chances to build a cultural system, which is what the AE ultimately is.
Ding ding ding!

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The whole *notion* of iterative implementation is one of those things I'd crush from the souls of the developers with my bare hands if I could.
Can I help?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Which sort of gets back to my original post. The reason why I believe there is no way for players to post comments about an arc that everyone else can see is that the devs are concerned about players griefing authors. That is a definite possibility.
Players are griefing authors right now. It's quick, it's easy, and it's completely anonymous. Griefing would actually be harder if signed comments took precedence over anonymous everything as far as presenting other players' opinion of an arc, and even harder still if rating or commenting required actually completing at least a significant portion of an arc. Those terrible terrible arcs Positron was so worried we wouldn't be able to 1-star? They would still be sitting at the bottom of the list right now if nobody could 1-star them.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
2. The point to slot caps was to reduce the amount of fluff in the AE.
At this point it's actually reducing the potential for good stuff in AE. Hall of Fame was a good idea in theory but in practice we saw where it led, and isn't a good way to give out new slots since if an arc loses its HoF rating the extra slot goes away and the author can't edit any arc. Dev's Choice is similarly flawed, even if they were being given out regularly, since it locks out editing. We are not writing novels, we're writing content for an ever-changing game, it needs to evolve along with the game so the AE can always present content that looks fresh.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Alternatively, they could not interact in the same space. We could make a system where everyone had their own version of the "channel" and whenever someone joined, everyone "subscribed" to that channel would get the option of whether to add them to their version of it, like a reverse invitation. Which means if that new person then does idiotic things in that channel, anyone could selectively remove that person from their version of the channel. It would be a form of individualized censoring of an otherwise global channel.

This requires no central moderator, because there is no one version of the channel that requires central oversight.
Are you describing an ignore list?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Everyone can be an author of content for their friends. It should have stopped there. You could have allowed players to make dozens of arcs for their friends, as long as only a few of those if any would ever be presented to the public at large through searches.
If it didn't involve unpublishing and republishing and unpublishing and republishing on the only three slots I have "available" for everyone, I'd probably have already done the experiment of having group-specific 1-to-50 content for the "fixed superteam" trios I run with two friends.

Seriously.

Heck, if I had unlimited slots I'd have a "choose your own adventure" style arc I've actually planned. It'd need a mere 17 slots.


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Originally Posted by Aliana Blue View Post
Heck, if I had unlimited slots I'd have a "choose your own adventure" style arc I've actually planned. It'd need a mere 17 slots.
Ever since I read Meanwhile** I've wished for the possibility of doing something along those lines.



** Off topic: Fleep by the same author is one of the best short-run webcomics I've ever read.


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Posted

Having um-ed and ah-ed over the whole 'What happened between the potential of AE in my head and the reality of it?', plus my violent reaction to farms and the unfathomable (to me) concept that 'I pay my money so I can cheat how I like', I've been thinking of late about how arcs can be removed for individuals when searching. Especially something that would not be griefing but instead be personal choice.

How about a 'Ignore arcs by this user' function?

It simply* filters out arcs by a global username. It may take a while of typing in the name of a global for each person you don't want to see the arcs of.

Similarly a 'search for arcs by username' that actually works (or more specifically a 'more arcs by this user' function) to balance out the negative aspect of ignoring people via the AE interface.

Any thoughts?

*Insert standard 'not a simple task' rant


 

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
How about a 'Ignore arcs by this user' function?
Sure, why not.

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It simply* filters out arcs by a global username. It may take a while of typing in the name of a global for each person you don't want to see the arcs of.
No, no typing. Just click a button next to the name and it should be added automatically to the filter.

Quote:
Similarly a 'search for arcs by username' that actually works (or more specifically a 'more arcs by this user' function) to balance out the negative aspect of ignoring people via the AE interface.
This function already works for me.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm going to be blunt here. The authors deserve the best tools we can give them to write AE arcs, and I think there's tons of room for improvement there. And those tools need to be first class tools not second class tools, by which I mean the devs would never just randomly change how existing content works, and break seven years of writer effort for standard content. They have no problem doing that for the AE. That has to stop, period. Up to this point, we need to treat the people willing to put time into writing for the AE as valuable assets, and give them the support they need to write the best content possible.

But once the authors are given those tools, they are on their own. We shouldn't care about them one tiny bit. Screw them, in fact. If the players want a top 100 list of arcs, then the guy that wrote the 101st best arc is screwed. Too bad. If the players think his arc sucks, that information should be available for all to see. Author doesn't like it, author can grow thicker skin, or write better, or take ball and go home. I don't care either way. If there are too many arcs and players can't sort through them all, then we increase the thresholds necessary to show up in search lists. Authors don't like it? Too bad. On the consumer side, I don't care that the system is "fair" to authors. I don't care if all good content is played. I care that all played content is good.
One of the things going through my head is that the ease of use for the system is part of the reason why farms can get pumped out so quickly. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that farms are far easier to make than actual story missions and this really shouldn't be the case. For all intents and purposes AE is a WYSIWYG editor and by default those are almost always vastly weaker than a true coding system. Sadly, it just seems like AE as a whole is suffering for it.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The requirement on authors is not literacy or knowledge of game mechanics or the ability to add. Its writing what other people want to play. Nothing else matters. Nothing else should matter. The "best" arcs shouldn't be played, the arcs people want to play should be played. This is not a game design school.
I'm chuckling at this since game design classes were what introduced me to AE.


 

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
Having um-ed and ah-ed over the whole 'What happened between the potential of AE in my head and the reality of it?', plus my violent reaction to farms and the unfathomable (to me) concept that 'I pay my money so I can cheat how I like', I've been thinking of late about how arcs can be removed for individuals when searching. Especially something that would not be griefing but instead be personal choice.
I would like a function to ignore specific arcs, period. That way I won't have the same 1-54 Extreme Everything-fests pop up every time I do a search.

I'd actually like limits on the maximum level range for custom critters entirely, but that's another issue.


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Posted

I would like everyone here to check out the Ustream that was released pre-I20. Around the 50 minute mark AE gets brought concerning features. While it is disappointing to see things we won't get, I found it incredibly refreshing to get straight answers in a public venue. More importantly, knowing what we can't get helps us fine tune asking for what we can.


 

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Originally Posted by Zamuel View Post
I would like everyone here to check out the Ustream that was released pre-I20. Around the 50 minute mark AE gets brought concerning features. While it is disappointing to see things we won't get, I found it incredibly refreshing to get straight answers in a public venue. More importantly, knowing what we can't get helps us fine tune asking for what we can.
I tried watching it (if it's the one they have archived on http://www.ustream.tv/channel/paragon-studios) but every time someone was about to say anything interesting the sound and/or video started to stutter making it impossible to hear any actual answers to the questions.


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Posted

I do not visit the forums so often, but since I am on vacation I have a bit more time and read through the posts in this thread.

I definitely agree with the notion that "everyone should be an author" is wrong or counter-productive for MA and that there has been a lack of focus to make it attractive for players to play the content.

Unfortunately I do not think many of the good suggestions here matters particularly much - in the end any improvements will be judged against other items on the to-do list in terms of what commercial benefit they can bring.

Unless Paragon Studios run out of ideas for other content updates, or they get some "proof" that user content creation in MMOs can be commercially successful I doubt they will put much effort into it, if any.

If Cryptic's efforts with The Foundry in Star Trek Online works out well I guess they maybe would look at it again. I think Foundry is better in a couple of ways than MA, but may still run into similar problems that MA has.

* Accessibility is definitely better; as easy as regular missions and same interface
* A review stage - a mission needs to be _completed_ by reviewers N number of times before being publically available
* Similar rating system to MA (1-5 stars), but with a bit more details on the ratings - e.g. it will show that a mission may have 10 4-star, 1 5-star and 2 1-star ratings out of a total of 13.
* Cryptic is planning to have different missions with regular rewards whose tasks may include to complete a certain number of Foundry missions.
* Search functionality which is somewhat similar to what MA has.

I do not think the interface will be enough if the number of missions grow considerably and something similar to the YouTube approach may still be needed. But the review stage may at least partially control the flow of new missions.

The tools themselves looks promising - they give a lot of control to the author with some basic building blocks. The toolset is essentially an early version that they will be using for their Neverwinter Nights game.

For the sake of MA I hope that Foundry will work out in STO - if there is a positive working and commercially successful example out there perhaps Paragon Studios will make a good effort to revamp MA.


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