Welcome to Controllers, the best AT in the game. Controllers are more varied and take a wider range of strategies to play well . . . which makes them more fun.
Elec/FF? Not only do I not have one, I don't recall ever seeing one. I have an Elec/Rad and a Mind/FF, but I don't see a whole bunch of synergy between FF and Electric Control. Not that it will be bad . . . there are no bad controllers. Just some have better synergy than others.
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Two things teams hate most are (a) knockback and (b) Intangibility. You have them both in FF. It is a real challenge to make knockback effective so that it can be used, but not abused, for team play. Melee players generally dislike knockback because they may rely upon foes being close for their damage buff (shield), defense (invul) or regen (willpower), or they may want the foes close to do damage on them (stone, fire, dark). As a result, the melee guys usually want to draw the aggro and gather foes near them. Repulsion or Force bubble are not very helpful.|
Originally Posted by JamesTheShadow
Hi, im new to the wonderful world of 'Trollers and I had a couple questions. I wanted a team-oriented controller and I always like to have an FF on the team when I scrap around so I decided for once i'd be "that guy". I am well aware of the very limited damage potential of Elec but when I want to do damage I usually play a scrapper/brute.
First question for the FF part: I only played FF up to 18 on a MM. Are the toggles worth it ? (Dispertion Bubble of course isn't even optionnal) I can see the use of repelling or knocking back stuff ocasionnally... but do these power get any use on TF's or such ? |
I have Force Bubble on my Mind/FF, and use it occasionally when things get out of hand to protect myself and my squishier teammates from melee attacks. I may use it solo or duo, but rarely pull it out on teams except in "panic button" moments. Every once in a while, I can use it to block a hall or push foes into a corner.
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Second question: I was considering taking Tough/Weave, Maneuvers and Combat Jumping to get as much defense as possible without having to drop key powers in Elec or FF. I also intended to take Conserve Power/Temp Invulnerability/Power Boost from APP's. However doing so I cannot take other pools like heal other/heal self. Does that sound like a viable way to build or am I missing the train here ? Of course I could post my prototype build when I get home but I went for positionnal defense (all above 30) it also has 60ish global recharge and decent recovery. |
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I have an Elec/FF troller. He's around level 33 or so.
Like you said, soloing will be slow at first. However, the long term prognosis you will eventually be able to outsolo most Defenders and even some average Corruptors. That's because of Containment combined with sheer safety of the control sets. Controllers get a pretty ridiculous--and IMO unintended--lead on defeating huge numbers of foes, and while neither FF or Electric particularly lend themselves to this, the epic powers you get starting at level 41 definitely do.
A few things you should know about Force Field. First, Maneuvers should generally be considered a required power (altho this is much more true of Defenders than Controllers). Beyond that, the only must-haves are Deflection Shield, Insulation Shield, and Dispersion Bubble. You can honestly skip everything else in the set and come out clean. Whether you should depends on your overall strategy.
In a manner of speaking, you can think of Force Field as being an armor set you happen to share with teammates. Essentially it's a communal version of Super Reflexes. Despite this, in a way it's ahead of that set because unlike SR all of your personal +Defense comes from just three or four powers. Typically, this is Dispersion Bubble, Maneuvers, and in some cases Combat Jumping and Weave.
Now, a lot of people say that FF's buffs are "wasted" at high levels because of rampant IO availability. IMO this sort of misses the point. While it means your shared buffs become less useful, your ability to IO yourself actually becomes somewhat obscene. Of the "buff/debuff" sets, only Traps surpasses Force Field in terms of your ability to IO yourself into tank-magedom. Traps isn't currently available to Controllers, and if the developers have any sense at all, never will be without serious modifications. It is completely within the realm of possibility for a /FF Controller to IO him or herself to defense to nearly every position. This is generally not necessary or desirable, but because it is possible it hopefully illustrates how FF can easily grab very high personal defenses.
One of my own possible builds for Elec/FF is posted below. I am not sure I would actually spend money on the expensive purple set or PVP IO here, but they could be eventual goals. What you will note is I intentionally did not hit 45% defense to any position. That's because alpha slots with +Defense make up about as much defense as is missing. This is hard to calculate--I had to use a spreadsheet--but hopefully I'm correct.
This version has Ranged, AoE, and Psi Defense as it main draws, plus 65% Slash/Lethal resistance, 43% Energy Resistance, and Aid Other and Aid Self for me/the pets. Fire and Cold defense kind of tagged along for the ride. Smash/Lethal/Melee are just ok, ending up at around 34% defense once alphas are slotted, which is still pretty good considering I wasn't actually building for them! It would be possible to close this gap entirely by taking a defense based armor in an APP, but I prefer having Resistance for what does get through to just capping a bunch of positions.
I'm meanwhile unsure of how the 5% defense IO in the epic pet works. I figure the pet is coming in at around 44 defense to all but Psi as long as it stays within my big bubble. I don't know whether the extra defense also affects the imps.
Note that I would lack a single target blast. That kind of sucks but it was a tradeoff between that or the extra endurance + protected pet with a heal. There is no combo of epic pet, radial AoE blast, and resistance based shield. If it bothers you, you could take Mace Mastery. This actually means you cap Slash/Lethal defense, but lose a lot of resistance.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
electric ff: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(3), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Dev'n-Hold%(17)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7), DefBuff-I(25)
Level 4: Chain Fences -- Ragnrk-Knock%(A), GravAnch-Hold%(7), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(11), Posi-Dam%(29), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(46)
Level 6: Jolting Chain -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(9), Apoc-Dam%(9), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(15), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Conductive Aura -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(13), Efficacy-EndMod(29)
Level 10: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11), DefBuff-I(13)
Level 12: Static Field -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 16: Electric Fence -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Dev'n-Hold%(40), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 18: Paralyzing Blast -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(19), Lock-Rchg/Hold(19), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), Lock-%Hold(23)
Level 20: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff-I(A), HO:Enzym(39), HO:Enzym(39)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(25), HO:Enzym(34)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(27), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(27), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(31), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(31), CoPers-Conf%(34)
Level 28: Tough -- GA-3defTpProc(A), Aegis-ResDam(36), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(36), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), S'fstPrt-ResKB(37), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(39)
Level 30: Aid Other -- Heal-I(A)
Level 32: Gremlins -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc(34), BldM'dt-Dmg(43)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(37), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 38: Aid Self -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(40)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam(42), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(45), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(46)
Level 47: Summon Guardian -- S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(A), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg(48), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(50), EdctM'r-PetDef(50)
Level 49: Power Sink -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod(46)
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The pet defense and resistance IO's grant the caster an aura (40 feet as I recall) that buffs their pets. When you slot them you'll notice the little defense and resistance upward triangles on your pets. This includes even the veteran reward buff pets, which survive a surprisingly long time when their defense is buffed. I personally prefer the blue wisp with its buff to defense and endurance.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm meanwhile unsure of how the 5% defense IO in the epic pet works. I figure the pet is coming in at around 44 defense to all but Psi as long as it stays within my big bubble. I don't know whether the extra defense also affects the imps.
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Originally Posted by ketch
The pet defense and resistance IO's grant the caster an aura (40 feet as I recall) that buffs their pets. When you slot them you'll notice the little defense and resistance upward triangles on your pets. This includes even the veteran reward buff pets, which survive a surprisingly long time when their defense is buffed. I personally prefer the blue wisp with its buff to defense and endurance.
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So any pet the caster summons gets the buff? And you can slot both +Defense IOs for a total +10% buff? If so, any lvl 50 /FF troller can more or less soft cap his or her pet(s) as long as they stay within the big bubble, even without Power Boost or alphas.
+17.67% (Basic Shield)
+12.06% (D Bubble)
+04.18% (Manuevers)
+10.00% (IOs)
=43.00% Defense
Very close to capped. And capped by the defense alpha.
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I can confirm that both the defense IO's stack when slotted in different abilities on my mastermind, as do the resistance IO's. There's always a bit of lingering doubt, but I feel confident in saying that it works the same for controller pets. It also seems to work with the veteran buff pets. They are surrounded by the purple and orange triangles up on characters with those IO's slotted as well. However, I'm unsure if it applies to pets that are summoned via temporary powers.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
So any pet the caster summons gets the buff? And you can slot both +Defense IOs for a total +10% buff? If so, any lvl 50 /FF troller can more or less soft cap his or her pet(s) as long as they stay within the big bubble, even without Power Boost or alphas.
+17.67% (Basic Shield) +12.06% (D Bubble) +04.18% (Manuevers) +10.00% (IOs) =43.00% Defense Very close to capped. And capped by the defense alpha. |
So, as you demonstrated, a FF can bring their pets very near the softcap.
Edit: A simple test for this would be to slot the one of the defense auras in one power and a resistance aura in another. Both buffs should appear around the pets. I'll try to confirm this when I have a bit of time.
Thank you for the input. Changed a few things in my build and managed to cram Aid Self in to the detriment of Hasten (i know... i know... hasten). If only we could take 5 pools instead of 4 that wouldn't have been a problem. Also thank you for posting your build Oedipus, gave me a few alternate ideas.
Beware what lurks in the Shadows
Have fun. You might be surprised by your effectiveness. I pulled my Elec/FF tonight and ran around for a bit. Turned out he's actually level 39. Did some tip missions at -1x3, and with "just" 26 defense ATM didn't get below half health despite fighting Nemesis, who have confusion protection. I can't wait to see what better slotting brings. Not to mention decent attack powers.
I have a level 50 Electric/Forcefield controller. I put the medicine pool on him for survivability issues. As for how good he is, He is definitely lower damage than any of the other 'troller sets, however the electric holds and end drains make him a melee survivor. The gremlins are insanely stupid, but they are effective.
I only took the three bubbles and forcebubble. Forcebubble is great on respec trials. 
Definitely a "team" player.
Tempstra.
Tempstra 50 Rad/Dark Defender/War'nt 50 Warshade/Heliosa 50 Fire/Rad Controller//Captain Blue Balls 50 Fire/Ice Blaster/Pinky Swear 50 Dark/Dark ScrapperMind Dreamer 50 Mind/Kinetics Controller/Rex Bubbles 50 Illusion/Forcefield Controller/Cool Wind 50 Ice/Storm Controller/Lil' Miss Dangerous 50 Gravity/Kinetics Controller/Observationist 50 Illusion/Empathy Controller/Kansas City Brawler 50 Stone/Fire Tank/Hades Exhibit One 50 Dark/Robots MM
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To be honest, I'd ignore the advice most people give on knock back on this board. Remember that this is the internet and you may be getting advice from someone who has less experience using the power than you do! There's no one running around with knock back powers on all the time, and no one suggesting you should. Knock back is a situational power and in situations where it's useful, it's extremely powerful.|
Originally Posted by JamesTheShadow
Are the toggles worth it ? (Dispertion Bubble of course isn't even optionnal) I can see the use of repelling or knocking back stuff ocasionnally... but do these power get any use on TF's or such ?
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The FF powers are all designed to work with one another. For example, a nice trick with FF is to raise PFF and use Aid Self when the going gets tough. You can do this when you're surrounded by a very large group and it drastically increases your survivability. But how do you get _out_ of PFF when there's tons of baddies around you, all attacking you? Repulsion field will let you drop PFF safely, even when you're surrounded.
An example of using a trick like this is the Khan TF where you have to take out 4 portals surrounded by baddies. Raise PFF, let the come to you. Raise repulsion field. Drop PFF. The melee toons can then just waltz in and destroy the portals. Or you can pop a purple luck and destroy them yourself with repulsion field still up. This trick also works for demon portals.
And the classic use for repulsion field is for chaos control. When things get tough, turning on repulsion field and and running around to just sending stuff flying is one of the most effective ways to survive what would otherwise be a team wipe.
So is taking repulsion field a good idea? I think it is, but you can take a look at the videos below and decide for yourself.
Using repulsion field to exit PFF in a dangerous crowd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmK0SC14TI4
Using repulsion field for chaos control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gebY_SwaCWA
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
P.S.
Tempstra, gratz on your sig. It's not often I see someone with almost half as many 50s as i have. 
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Hi, im new to the wonderful world of 'Trollers and I had a couple questions. I wanted a team-oriented controller and I always like to have an FF on the team when I scrap around so I decided for once i'd be "that guy". I am well aware of the very limited damage potential of Elec but when I want to do damage I usually play a scrapper/brute.
First question for the FF part: I only played FF up to 18 on a MM. Are the toggles worth it ? (Dispertion Bubble of course isn't even optionnal) I can see the use of repelling or knocking back stuff ocasionnally... but do these power get any use on TF's or such ?
Second question: I was considering taking Tough/Weave, Maneuvers and Combat Jumping to get as much defense as possible without having to drop key powers in Elec or FF. I also intended to take Conserve Power/Temp Invulnerability/Power Boost from APP's. However doing so I cannot take other pools like heal other/heal self. Does that sound like a viable way to build or am I missing the train here ?
Of course I could post my prototype build when I get home but I went for positionnal defense (all above 30) it also has 60ish global recharge and decent recovery.
Beware what lurks in the Shadows