Both are good sets it all depends on how you want to play and if you solo or team.
From a teaming standpoint a /ff is more likely to get invited due to the 2 FF's and dispersion bubble. With the expectation that you will keep the team buffed up.
From a Solo stand point /ff can soft cap bots/ and there are several powers in /ff that can be skipped to make room for APP/PPP or fighting, Presence pools. You can then use these to "spice up" your /FF toon because they can get boring. I recommend the attacks from Field Mastery and hasten.
From a teaming stand point /traps brings some good thing in the form of FFG, poison trap, web grenade, and acid mortar. Poison Trap has -regen good for fighting AV's. Its not any more or less likely to get invited over any other power set tho.
From a solo standpoint Traps brings a lot of stratagy to solo farming. You can tow bomb with a ton of trip mines or send in your seeker drones to take alpha and then rush in and drop Poison trap.
There rather even in the end.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
Quote:
I've got a level 50 bots/ff and a level 50 bots/traps.|
Originally Posted by Inno
How does traps play versus ff?
...With so much defense, I feel like I am never going to be taken down, but I am going to take all night in the process, lol. |
I haven't played the bubbler since my trapper hit level 32. My trapper has the most MO badges of all my toons, and has no trouble getting invited to teams.
nice things about bubblers:
- lots of defence
- a variety of knockback powers
nice things about trappers:
- lots of defence
- AOE -resist, essentially makes each pet and teammate do extra damage
- AOE -regen, essentially makes bosses/EBs/AVs die faster
- seeker drones can safely take the alpha strike
- caltrops and trip mine aren't the best attack powers but FF has zero attacks.
The only advantage of FF over traps is that FFG is on a timer and the big FF bubble isn't.
If you like the safety play a trapper. If you like the KB powers play a stormie. The only reason to play a bubbler is if you like to chat in the middle of task forces and ship raids.
Quote:
I chat no matter what toon I'm on :x
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Originally Posted by anonymoose
If you like the safety play a trapper. If you like the KB powers play a stormie. The only reason to play a bubbler is if you like to chat in the middle of task forces and ship raids.
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Traps can softcap Bots too - you just need to have Manoeuvres and the aura +defence unique. FFG is 15, Manoeuvres is 4, the Prot Bots are 22, and the aura is the slack. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
From a Solo stand point /ff can soft cap bots/
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FF can soft cap the prot bots, who otherwise are not capped, though - but that's really about all it has going for it over traps.
If you want to do things besides use your secondary, FF is probably a good choice. If you want to use your secondary, Traps has all the tools you'll want to keep using (don't forget web grenade's -recharge; it's pretty hefty, and good for mitigation).
This is a no brainer. Traps does everything FF does, with the exception of KB, Traps does so much that FF can't do (debuffs). My first MM was FF and I was actually angry when I first played a Trapper. Traps even provides better def to the player than the set that's all about Def.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Not really sure what the "aura" is..are you talking about APP/PPP DEF shield? It isn't needed. You can hit the softcap with bots/traps with IO set bonuses and the other stuff you mentioned. You don't even need Weave. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Traps can softcap Bots too - you just need to have Manoeuvres and the aura +defence unique. FFG is 15, Manoeuvres is 4, the Prot Bots are 22, and the aura is the slack.
FF can soft cap the prot bots, who otherwise are not capped, though - but that's really about all it has going for it over traps. If you want to do things besides use your secondary, FF is probably a good choice. If you want to use your secondary, Traps has all the tools you'll want to keep using (don't forget web grenade's -recharge; it's pretty hefty, and good for mitigation). |
And I think your Prot Bot bubble numbers are way off. Slotted out for +DEF and they hit around 12%, not 22.
I would choose Bots/traps over Bots/FF. I came from Bots/Dark too. As always, YMMV
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
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The +RES and +DEF unique procs grant the bonus to any pet within the MM's "aura", that's a fairly large radius, I don't recall exactly how big at the moment.|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
Not really sure what the "aura" is..
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Master_Templar
And I think your Prot Bot bubble numbers are way off. Slotted out for +DEF and they hit around 12%, not 22.
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Quote:
Ah okay, the pet uniques. Got it. Wasn't thinking of that. If it said unique pet procs I would have realized ^^|
Originally Posted by anonymoose
The +RES and +DEF unique procs grant the bonus to any pet within the MM's "aura", that's a fairly large radius, I don't recall exactly how big at the moment.
Yes but the protbots bubble your tier1 and tier3 pets twice, hence 22% or so. |
This is true. They only buff the player once though. Maybe I misread the original statement. I read it as being able to softcap the player (bots as a set), not the actual bots themselves. Sorry!
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
Do this do this reliably to you and other teammates, too?
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Originally Posted by anonymoose
Yes but the protbots bubble your tier1 and tier3 pets twice, hence 22% or so.
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Quote:
They hit you with one. They will not bubble the rest of your team.
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Originally Posted by Pyrthas
Do this do this reliably to you and other teammates, too?
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Thanks. I didn't think I'd seen them throwing bubbles around on anybody else, but I figured it was worth checking.
Having a 50 bots/traps and a 37 thugs/ff I can pretty solidly say that I will never play another FF MM. Ever. It lacks any sort of good utility and doesn't do defense better than traps. It's just a very 'meh' set. The only reason the thugs/ff hasn't been deleted is that I just don't really like deleting higher level characters.
I have both at 50 and both set up with IOs towards the defense cap. I can honestly say my Traps outshines my FF. My Traps with maneuvers offers a straight 25% defense bonus to anyone near me on my team. FFG also offers other status bonuses as well. My FF MM has to cast bubbles on each person on the team to just about establish similar effects. 7 players 2 bubbles, you do the math. Further you have to purposely stagger the bubbles this way they just all don't drop out at the same time.
Sadly with the introduction of IOs FF is less needed. There was a time the Tank was looking for a FF player to help shore up his missing defenses. But today with invention set bonuses you can pretty much make up what your might be lacking. I have several defense cap toons which are not Brutes Tanks or Scrapper. I have others that are Ranged Defense cap. I have done every TF / SF at one point or another and I have never heard anyone say darn we can't do this unless we have a FF player. But again I have never really heard anyone say we can't do this TF unless we have x type player let alone a FF player.
They really need to come up with almost a 2nd choice for some secondaries so you can either have the classic power or the new alt power. This way it won't break this cottage rule they hold up so high on a pedestal and everyone is happy.
Traps is just more fun regardless of what you have with it.. You can be a Shoemaker / Traps and still kick some backside with only using traps.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
Two things. First, how are you getting Maneuvers + FFG to to 25%? That's just under a 100% +def on Maneuvers and FFG. You can't even get that with a Nerve Paragon. 20% is easy enough to hit, but 25% is way out of reach, unless I'm missing something. (Traps defenders can get to 25% with just FFG and Maneuvers, but that's different.) Second, /FF with Maneuvers will easily get everybody to around 33.5%. And Dispersion bubble has status resistance, too.|
Originally Posted by plainguy
My Traps with maneuvers offers a straight 25% defense bonus to anyone near me on my team. FFG also offers other status bonuses as well. My FF MM has to cast bubbles on each person on the team to just about establish similar effects.
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I'm not trying to say that /FF is definitely worth it for an MM. I play an FF def, and it's all I've ever played, so I have no idea how things go without one. People say that the bubbles help, and I take them at their word, but they could just be being polite. And even if I do help, there's a big difference between a defender, who can softcap everybody without assistance, and a mastermind, who can only get people about 11 or 12% away from the softcap. But it's a little unfair to say that Traps can do what FF can do without the two individual bubbles.
That 25% def number is for Defenders, certainly not MMs.
I know earlier in thread I poo-pood my FFer, but I took Power Boost from Mace Mastery and the +Def for bubbles goes up substantially, probably enough to soft-cap with Maneuvers and Dispersion.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Good point. I don't think that it's enough to softcap folks once it wears off (and stops affecting Maneuvers and Dispersion), but it should get people to at least 40%ish, I think. With a 15s duration, that should cover about four pairs of bubbles, I think. Enough for the squishiest members of the team, anyway.
FF suffers horribly from the "good enough" effect. FF is better than Traps at providing defence, but Traps is "good enough" at it, and does other things as well. And two Trappers caps defence for everyone, and two sets of traps are always better. Two FFers doesn't really help anyone (except the FFers, as they don't each need to bubble everyone anymore).
I really like my level 50 Bots/FF. With Alpha slotting and Power Boost, I can soft cap a teammate from 0. I think I'm at 44% right now. As soon as the Strike Pack hits, I expect to be past 45%.
Those little bubbles are a big convenience too. Folks don't have to huddle under your Dispersion Bubble to have a good amount of Def. They can head off and have the Def anywhere they want.
Traps is still an excellent set, just not quite as +Def friendly as FF. Traps is great solo or small teams with a ranged MM set, because all the pets almost automatically group under the FFG's bubble.
But FF can be a force multiplier on small teams too, if you take some of the trickier powers in the FF set. With two builds now, it's easier to maintain a small team and a large team build.
Quote:
Both are correct, Mia Culpa. I was thinking of my Defender when posting..|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
That 25% def number is for Defenders, certainly not MMs.
I know earlier in thread I poo-pood my FFer, but I took Power Boost from Mace Mastery and the +Def for bubbles goes up substantially, probably enough to soft-cap with Maneuvers and Dispersion. |
But regardless I am full positional defense cap with my Robot Traps, which oddly enough is not that easy to come by with my FF Robots because the bubbles are for others and not me. I believe I do have a Full positional defense cap FF build in the hopper atm waiting to be respeced into. I just recall having more issues trying to get it accomplished compared to traps. With Traps I pretty much have a base line regardless of the AT that I use and then pick the rest of my powers after that is done.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
This is my Robot FF build. I could only accomplish Defense Cap by using Protector bot FF. With Traps I don't count on the Protector bots bubble for Cap.
If someone has an idea on how to get Defense Cap without Protector bot FF buff I would most inclined to listen. I just can't figure it out. I guess Alpha slotting for Nerve ( Accuracy ) which has a defense buff component as well could fix these issues as what Gameboy mentioned.
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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I love tankerminding on 50+ tfs, so my Bot/FF has both taunts.
I think PFF is the ultimate mastermind power. I have a macro for it.
"Mein meks have failed me, and I must make a retreat. You are all on your own."
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
Quote:
If a squishy player is running around with absolutely zero defence of their own, I sure as heck don't feel bad that I can't softcap them with my trapper's FFG. Those guys need to take responsibility for their own squishy hide, they can eat purples to make up the difference or spend the whole mish admiring the floor for all I care.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
I really like my level 50 Bots/FF. With Alpha slotting and Power Boost, I can soft cap a teammate from 0. I think I'm at 44% right now. As soon as the Strike Pack hits, I expect to be past 45%.
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In practice you've often got several teammates running maneuvers, or maybe a Dark or Stormie or Crab with a toggle +DEF power to add to the FFG.
It really depends on who you team with, too. On my electric armor brute I really, really like the defence that any FF or trapper mastermind brings but I actually had to ask a trapper to stop stealing my alpha strikes with seekers once. I appreciate that they can tank but the team was moving a lot slower while I was dealing half-fury damage.
It comes down to playstyle. If you like to support the squishies and hang back, you'll get more out of FF. More aggressive types will prefer traps. FF does allow you to pay more attention to micromanagement of your bots and positioning of your knockback powers but it's a whole lot harder to be the tank when you need to be for a team since you don't have the agro magnets and alpha sponges of traps.
How does traps play versus ff?
I have a 36 bots/ff MM, and while I like him overall, I feel like he is *almost* there, and could use just a kick in the pants. With so much defense, I feel like I am never going to be taken down, but I am going to take all night in the process, lol.
Reading several posts it appears that /traps is the most popular pairing with bots.
I dont want to have to reroll and level up again, but I am thinking that maybe /traps is a more synergistic pairing. If I were to reroll how would the set perform and play differently?
Any thoughts?
Thanks!!