Fire does slightly more damage according to Mids, due to extra damage being Fire's 'secondary effect', I guess, haha.
Dark is just pure DoT damage, while Elec adds -End, allowing it to slowly drain endurance from foes. Bit weird how Dark's aura doesn't do mild -ToHit, but oh well.
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Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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Well, the last thing Dark Armor needs is another buff.|
Originally Posted by Ideon
Bit weird how Dark's aura doesn't do mild -ToHit, but oh well.
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Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it. It seems consistent for it to have some secondary effect. I just don't think I want the Devs taking too close of a look at Dark Armor.
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Don't worry, they already whapped it on the nose (for brutes) last pass when it got ported over to Tanker.
And yes, I do find it odd that rise to the challenge has a mild -to hit, but death shroud doesn't.
edit: No I don't. Dark's -toHit in an aura is in cloak of fear. Derrrr.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Yes, we want to keep the devs from taking too close of a look at what some people are doing with Dark Armor, especially now that we have the Alpha slot taking care of the last of the endurance issues. My BS/DA scrapper runs 10 toggles and I can attack nonstop for quite a while with no noticeable drain. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I just don't think I want the Devs taking too close of a look at Dark Armor.
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Dark Armor is one of the better sets in the entire game, I'd rather it not get nerfed. Though I think it's unlikely, because it doesn't get that great until you add lots of IOs to it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'm not a set balance expert by any means, so I don't know how much we want to keep the devs away from Dark Armor. But it's hard for me to imagine them nerfing what I think is probably one of the less popular sets, no matter what we can do with it with enough influence and the alpha slot. You can do equally crazy things with some other sets. Also, the lack of defense debuff resistance to me is a substantial weakness, but perhaps others and perhaps the devs consider it less so.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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COF could use a minor tweak they over nerfed it when they gutted it during I5|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well, the last thing Dark Armor needs is another buff.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it. It seems consistent for it to have some secondary effect. I just don't think I want the Devs taking too close of a look at Dark Armor. |
Yes 95% base acc was to high the endurance consumption was even worse before the ED end reduction, Mag 3 stun and like 20% -tohit buff .
Yes once they got stacking armors at 28 you took COF and you became a walking troller with mez protection and better damage. Yes it was over powered at the time but it was short lived and not many knew about how good it was.
Mag 2 change I understood. the acc reduction was a little much with the endurance staying where it is and yes the to tohit debuff was ridiculous and is fine now. I really like them to up the acc to 75% or reduce the endurance some. don't care which one but either would help
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Yeah I don't see much happening on DA...
It's good, but then again so as all of them.
Would love to see Burn get some kind of choking/hold added to it or something (probably won't happen)... Look at Shield Charge with the massive KD... like shields need it.
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I'm pretty sure the policy set by Castle / Synapse / Sunstorm was to balance sets against Single Origin performance... not against IO performance. I do not get the impression that Black Scorpion is the type to radically change things that are largely working as intended.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Dark Armor is one of the better sets in the entire game, I'd rather it not get nerfed. Though I think it's unlikely, because it doesn't get that great until you add lots of IOs to it.
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Eh, if the set didn't have anything else to fall back on, I'd be inclined to agree. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Also, the lack of defense debuff resistance to me is a substantial weakness, but perhaps others and perhaps the devs consider it less so.
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But, it has solid resists, a monster heal, and status effect/debuff toggle auras.
If it were given defense debuff resistance I would say that would probably make it overpowered.
Softcapped character with ~30-50% resistance (including a butt ton of Psi resistance), the best self heal in the game, and the ability to completely neuter any and all minions? If you take away the ability to strip away that defense, that character would be nearly god mode. I'm okay with the lack of DDR simply because of everything else the set offers.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
What am I missing with DA? My DA scrapper on SOs is squishy as heck.
In time, I'll come to forgive you.
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Once you get your cloak powers(fear, darkness), you should start feeling the survivability. Tough and Weave help also. |
Originally Posted by Redd35
What am I missing with DA? My DA scrapper on SOs is squishy as heck.
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DA is not the most survivable secondary even after IO's. Inv, WP, and even SR are still more likely to keep you alive, IMO. DA gets the damage aura however.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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What level is it? |
Originally Posted by Redd35
What am I missing with DA? My DA scrapper on SOs is squishy as heck.
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On SOs, DA scrappers tend to be on the squishy side before you get Oppressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear available. The set is somewhat balanced around running one or both of them to mitigate melee attacks from minions. If you have no IO sets, and aren't running either of those toggles (I like Oppressive Gloom better, it's useful from the second you get it, while Cloak of Fear requires significant slotting to be effective)
Your primary has a bit to do with it as well. Werner and myself (and many others) like the sword sets paired with DA because Parry/Divine Avalanche is huge for your survivability in lower levels. Dark Melee has to-hit debuffs and a small self heal that is part of your attack chain. Sets like Fire and Dual Blades don't have much in the way of active mitigation (FIre has none at all), so they tend to be squishier until you start investing in IOs.
Also, your timing may be off on hitting Dark Regeneration. It has a longish animation for a self heal. Many times I have gone to hit DR while low on health and took enough damage to kill me before it finished animating.
If you put only one IO on your character, make it the Theft of Essence: Chance for +End in Dark Regeneration. If you slot that and hit enough targets with it, you will sometimes GAIN endurance from it.
Without knowing how you character is built and how you play it, there's not much more advice I can give. Some more specifics would let me pinpoint what your problem is, and if I can't figure it out, I'm sure someone else here can.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's sort of how DA is for a long time. I'm nearing the end of leveling my Katana/DA scrapper (Level 48.5 at the moment), and it's been a long, hard road. Endurance management has been a nightmare even with getting early numina's proc, miracle proc, and several other endurance management IOs/tools, the survivability hasn't been terribly great (Although Dark Regeneration allows you to do some amazing things).|
Originally Posted by Redd35
What am I missing with DA? My DA scrapper on SOs is squishy as heck.
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The moment I hit level 47, though, I started building up my final IO sets, and I started to see things come together. The survivability is starting to finally show up, the damage is ramping up in a huge way, and endurance is becoming less and less of an issue. Dark Armor really is a set that blooms late.
Ghostveil, as drawn by Shia
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Ah, I suppose that looked like a complaint since I didn't elaborate.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Eh, if the set didn't have anything else to fall back on, I'd be inclined to agree.
But, it has solid resists, a monster heal, and status effect/debuff toggle auras. If it were given defense debuff resistance I would say that would probably make it overpowered. Softcapped character with ~30-50% resistance (including a butt ton of Psi resistance), the best self heal in the game, and the ability to completely neuter any and all minions? If you take away the ability to strip away that defense, that character would be nearly god mode. I'm okay with the lack of DDR simply because of everything else the set offers. |
I think it is GOOD we have a weakness, something to be afraid of. I don't think this weakness should be "fixed". I don't think Dark Armor should have any defense debuff resistance. I'm just saying that this is one reason I don't consider the set overpowered with added defense, and merely very very good. It's one of the ways it has been balanced in the world of IOs, intentionally or not.
I agree we have a lot to fall back on even when we lose our defense (like the entire secondary as it might appear without a specific primary and all those IOs, since it isn't a defense secondary). This doesn't help me much in practice, though, if I'm already cruising near the edge of my ability before the debuffs, as I often am. In practice I have to turn the difficulty down, avoid certain groups, or accept a whole lot of face planting to get the job done. That's fine. Many builds have an Achilles' heel. Defense debuffs are mine.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Katana/Dark or Broad Sword/Dark can equal or better many of the more popular survivability sets with a defense build. Mine is significantly more survivable than my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, for instance, outside of defense debuffs. Dark Melee/Invuln still beats it in probably the majority of situations, though.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
DA is not the most survivable secondary even after IO's. Inv, WP, and even SR are still more likely to keep you alive, IMO. DA gets the damage aura however.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I don't remember any survivability problems leveling my Katana/Dark other than the usual lowbie squishiness. Endurance was always an issue, but I threw procs and uniques at it, and frankenslotted my attacks for serious endurance reduction. I can't remember if I had a Theft of Essence, but I assume so. That made it pretty manageable despite my addiction to expensive toggles. I also used Oppressive Gloom instead of Cloak of Fear while leveling to save endurance. With all that, by the mid 30s, it was very very solid (as most of my Scrappers seem to be). Not even in the same neighborhood as what I have now, but solid.
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Originally Posted by Ghostveil
That's sort of how DA is for a long time. I'm nearing the end of leveling my Katana/DA scrapper (Level 48.5 at the moment), and it's been a long, hard road. Endurance management has been a nightmare even with getting early numina's proc, miracle proc, and several other endurance management IOs/tools, the survivability hasn't been terribly great (Although Dark Regeneration allows you to do some amazing things).
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Parry and Divine Avalanche are excellent for protection, but they do reduce your DPS output if you rely on them. DM has very good mitigation built into its top attack chain.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Katana/Dark or Broad Sword/Dark can equal or better many of the more popular survivability sets with a defense build. Mine is significantly more survivable than my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, for instance, outside of defense debuffs. Dark Melee/Invuln still beats it in probably the majority of situations, though.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
That's only a bad thing if DPS is the only thing you care about.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Parry and Divine Avalanche are excellent for protection, but they do reduce your DPS output if you rely on them. DM has very good mitigation built into its top attack chain.
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Also....dead characters do 0 DPS. If I'm alive and dealing damage, my DPS is better than if I were faceplanted.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, but I'd rather be alive and dealing more damage. Using Parry/DA constantly isn't the only way to stay alive, you know.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's only a bad thing if DPS is the only thing you care about.
Also....dead characters do 0 DPS. If I'm alive and dealing damage, my DPS is better than if I were faceplanted. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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True. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Yes, but I'd rather be alive and dealing more damage. Using Parry/DA constantly isn't the only way to stay alive, you know.
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But, if not using Parry/DA means you die more often, it makes more sense to use it and let your DPS suffer.
My BS/DA has enough DPS with a 2 Parry attack chain to solo an AV, and I haven't noticed any major decline in my normal mob killing speed by using it. Also, my build doesn't have much recharge, so if I tried to use just Hack, Disembowel, and Head Splitter in a single target chain, I would have huge gaps in my chain, which will hurt my DPS even more than putting Parry in there.
If your build lacks recharge to the point that you're waiting 2 seconds after your third attack to fire a 4th one, Parry will actually HELP your DPS. 90 damage from a power is better than 0 damage in a gap that the power would fill nicely.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Parry and DA are great for exemplaring/low levels/non-IO'd builds, and it doesn't hurt your DPS that much if you only need to apply it once every 10 seconds to reach the softcap. This is moreso true if you go for extra offense in your build over a non-parry/DA softcap build, the former being cheaper than the latter. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
True.
But, if not using Parry/DA means you die more often, it makes more sense to use it and let your DPS suffer. My BS/DA has enough DPS with a 2 Parry attack chain to solo an AV, and I haven't noticed any major decline in my normal mob killing speed by using it. Also, my build doesn't have much recharge, so if I tried to use just Hack, Disembowel, and Head Splitter in a single target chain, I would have huge gaps in my chain, which will hurt my DPS even more than putting Parry in there. If your build lacks recharge to the point that you're waiting 2 seconds after your third attack to fire a 4th one, Parry will actually HELP your DPS. 90 damage from a power is better than 0 damage in a gap that the power would fill nicely. |
However, the best possible performance will always be with a build that doesn't rely on Parry/DA for the softcap.
Of course this is really dependent on your goals for the scrapper. Best possible performance isn't really that important.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I believe it would be very difficult to put together a viable soft-capped Sword/Dark that doesn't rely on Parry/DA. Mine only requires one in the chain, but my DPS still isn't that great. You don't have to soft cap, of course, but it's a ticket to extreme survivability on a Dark.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Not very difficult. |
Originally Posted by Werner
I believe it would be very difficult to put together a viable soft-capped Sword/Dark that doesn't rely on Parry/DA. Mine only requires one in the chain, but my DPS still isn't that great. You don't have to soft cap, of course, but it's a ticket to extreme survivability on a Dark.
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Impossible.
You cannot positionally softcap a Sword/Dark to all 3 positions without using Parry/DA. I've tried repeatedly, and the best build I could come up with STILL needed at least one application of Parry to softcap Melee.
Maybe someone else can figure it out (perhaps using the Very Rare Nerve Alpha?), but positional softcap on a Dark Armor without Parry is a challenge beyond my level of build wizardry (and my build wizardry is at least above average)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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All positions is not really viable without sacrificing a lot. S/L is definitely possible, albeit expensive.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not very difficult.
Impossible. You cannot positionally softcap a Sword/Dark to all 3 positions without using Parry/DA. I've tried repeatedly, and the best build I could come up with STILL needed at least one application of Parry to softcap Melee. Maybe someone else can figure it out (perhaps using the Very Rare Nerve Alpha?), but positional softcap on a Dark Armor without Parry is a challenge beyond my level of build wizardry (and my build wizardry is at least above average) |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Are the secondary set damage auras all equal in terms of damage as far as the one from /dark /fire and /elec?
In time, I'll come to forgive you.